Monster Mash: Monstrous Adventurer Competition

[GreatWyrmGold]

Monster Mash
This competition is for monstrous adventurers, in part to experiment with the possibilities they offer and in part to make use of the revised level adjustments which Inevitability and Debatra have spent five years assigning.
Adventurers designed for this contest must be of a monstrous race. For the purpose of this contest, “monstrous race” excludes all races designed for PC use, unless their level adjustment has been increased by one or more templates.
“Monstrous race” is a somewhat vague category, by necessity. No simple set of rules can exclude every single PC race without also excluding some genuine monsters. Entries which flout this rule with borderline-monstrous races risk a penalty to their Monstrosity score.

For the purpose of this competition, all races use the modified level adjustments listed in the LA Assignment Archive. Races with a -0 level adjustment are treated as if they had a +0 level adjustment. Monsters not yet rated may not be used.
Some races' level adjustments include asterisks. These monsters have traits which render them unsuitable for PC use, such as a wight’s spawn creation, a dryad’s tree dependency, or a genie’s wishes; check the linked posts in the archive. For the purpose of this contest, those races do not possess those traits. In cases where it's unclear which traits are removed, please contact the chair for clarification.

Contestants
You will need to present a full build for your entry, from its first level to level 20. Also required is a rundown of how your build works at lower levels, to demonstrate that it is a functional character that could be played in a real game.
Traditionally participants in similar competitions give "snapshots" of tactics and abilities at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20. Depending on the monstrous race chosen, your character may be unavailable at lower levels; in that case, instead give snapshots at various levels where it is playable. These snapshots should be roughly evenly distributed among what levels it is available at.

Rules
(If you can think of a more flavorful name for this section, I'm all ears.)
30 point-buy is the presumed creation method.
If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in elegance and/or power.
Competitors will be free to use any official 1st party (WotC) 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon Compendium is allowed, but Dragon magazine is disallowed. Unearthed Arcana is allowed. Unupdated 3.0 materials, as well as web exclusives by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion.
NB: Official Errata and 3.5 updates to 3.0 content are considered valid regardless of whether their sources would otherwise be legal. This includes the 3.5 update of Oriental Adventures given in Dragon Magazine, and the 3.5 updates of Dragonlance Campaign Setting content given in later third party Dragonlance books.
Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt or Generic Classes are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Item Familiars and Taint are also banned from the competition.

Bans:

Any material that grants you leadership without you specifically taking it should be ignored and may not be traded away for another feat or ACF. Undead Leadership and Dragon Cohort are likewise banned. Wild Cohort and Obtain Familiar are allowed. If you are not sure if a specific feat violates the 'no leadership' rule, err on the side of caution, or ask me.
However, Leadership may be taken to qualify for another feat or class (such as the Great Captain feat or Legendary Leader prestige class), though a character still doesn't get its usual benefit in those cases. This is to allow characters to access unproblematic material that'd otherwise be made unavailable because of the Leadership ban.

Because this contest involves creating a build up to level 20, no race with a base ECL higher than 20 is allowed.
The Dragonlance Campaign Setting is allowed, but the subsequent books for Dragonlance are considered 3rd party, and are therefore not eligible, despite the "WotC approved" status of those books. The same holds for Oriental Adventures (1st party) and the subsequent Rokugan books (3rd party).
The Illithid Savant and Beholder Mage prestige classes are specifically banned due to their extreme potential for abuse.

Judging
Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated on a scale from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, and Monstrosity.
Scores of zero may be applied in cases of exceptional misconduct (plagiarism earns a 0 in Originality, failure to meet prerequisites earns a 0 in Elegance, non-monstrous races earn a 0 in Monstrosity, etc); otherwise, all entries should receive at least one full point in each category.

• Originality: Is it unexpected or novel?
• Power: Can it do what the concept asks of it? Is this a powerfully-built character?
• Elegance: Is it mechanically straighforward or “pretty”?
• Monstrosity: Is the monstrous character’s race used?

Elegance and Monstrosity demand further elaboration.
Elegance measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. Use of flaws is considered in poor taste, and judges are asked to take a dim view of this option, taking it into account while grading. Other things that will cause penalties here are excessive multi-classing, and classes that don't fit the concept.
A legal source's relative obscurity should not be considered as penalizing Elegance, excepting the aforementioned issues with Unearthed Arcana. Using conflicting setting material may result in a penalty to Elegance at the judges' discretion, but a book's relative obscurity may not. In that same vein, drawing solely from the Core 3 (and the d20 SRD) should not be punished for lacking Originality.
Monstrosity measures how necessary the entry’s monster race was to the submission. We want to build monstrous adventurers here, not standard Iron Chef builds with a few racial hit dice at the start. Builds which could not function without the monstrous features of their race earn high Monstrosity scores, while builds which could work on any PC race with no changes will take Monstrosity penalties. Builds using non-monstrous races will also take penalties to Monstrosity.

Presentation
Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.

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NAME OF ENTRY

Level	Class	Base Attack Bonus	Fort Save	Ref Save	Will Save	Skills	Feats	Class Features
1st	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
2nd	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
3rd	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
4th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
5th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
6th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
7th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
8th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
9th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
10th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
11th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
12th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
13th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
14th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
15th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
16th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
17th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
18th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
19th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
20th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities

Code immediately below (spoiler).

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[table="class: head alt1 alt2"]
[tr]
[th][B]Level[/B][/th]
[th][B]Class[/B][/th]
[th][B]Base Attack Bonus[/B][/th]
[th][B]Fort Save[/B][/th]
[th][B]Ref Save[/B][/th]
[th][B]Will Save[/B][/th]
[th][B]Skills[/B][/th]
[th][B]Feats[/B][/th]
[th][B]Class Features[/B][/th]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]1st[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]2nd[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]3rd[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]4th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]5th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]6th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]7th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]8th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]9th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]10th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]11th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]12th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]13th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]14th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]15th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]16th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]17th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]18th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]19th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]20th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)

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Spells per Day/Spells Known

Level	0lvl	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th	8th	9th
1st	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
2nd	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
3rd	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
4th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
5th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
6th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
7th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
8th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
9th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
10th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
11th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
12th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
13th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
14th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
15th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
16th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
17th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
18th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
19th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
20th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-

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[B]Spells per Day/Spells Known[/B]
[table="class:head alt1 alt2"]
[tr]
[th][B]Level[/B][/th]
[th][B]0lvl[/B][/th]
[th][B]1st[/B][/th]
[th][B]2nd[/B][/th]
[th][B]3rd[/B][/th]
[th][B]4th[/B][/th]
[th][B]5th[/B][/th]
[th][B]6th[/B][/th]
[th][B]7th[/B][/th]
[th][B]8th[/B][/th]
[th][B]9th[/B][/th]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]1st[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]2nd[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]3rd[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]4th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]5th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]6th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]7th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]8th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]9th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]10th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]11th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]12th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]13th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]14th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]15th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]16th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]17th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]18th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]19th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]20th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.

Speculation
Please don’t post or speculate on possible builds until the reveal, in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.
Once builds are revealed, please do not comment on errors or rules issues on entries unless you are a judge. If you have such a comment, wait until the final reveal to post it.

Round Theme: Back to Basics

Since this is the first contest of its kind (and circumstances prevented me from brainstorming a better theme), I'm going to pick a pretty simple theme.

These monstrous adventurers are, at the end of the day, still adventurers, and they still need the same basic skills as any adventuring party. They need a cleric in the back to keep the fighter hale and hearty, a wizard in the middle where they can shed some light, and to never let the darn rogue out of sight.

• The first class level for each submission, aside from racial Hit Dice, must be either the Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, or Wizard class. All variants, alternative class features, etc from permitted sources are permitted.
• Further class levels may be any class, including prestige classes.
• At the judge's discretion, points for Elegance may be deducted if the chosen class seems unused in the build (e.g. taking one level of fighter before multiclassing into druid for the rest of the build).

Remember: If your submission does not use features of its monstrous race alongside its class features, your score may be penalized.

Deadlines

Contestants will have until 23:59 GMT Tuesday July 6th 14:30 July 7th I guess to create their builds and PM them to the chair. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until 23:59 GMT TuesdayWednesday July 13th 14th to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted. Deadlines are subject to extension as/if required.

Submission
To standardize Entries, please use this format when sending it in:
PM: GreatWyrmGold
Subject: Monster Mash, Name of your Entry
For Revisions and disputes, do the same thing. It makes it easier for me finding the entries in my mailbox.

More questions? Either ask in the thread or PM me with Monster Mash Questions in the header. Please use PMs for any questions relating to a specific build to avoid violating rules against speculation.

Houserules/Clarifications
D&D 3.5 is far from a perfect system, and inflated level adjustments are far from the only example of this. Many rules are ambiguous, absent, or just badly-written. I make no claim to fixing the system, but feel some “house rules” are in order:

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• All creatures are proficient with any natural weapons they may have or acquire.
• Bonus feats that are granted even if you do not meet the prerequisites do not require you to meet the prerequisites in order to use.
• Able Learner's benefit applies to the level you take it.
• Weapons from soulmelds are considered to be magic weapons.
• Unarmed Swordsage grants Improved Unarmed Strike at level 1.
• Spelltouched feats are legal and can be taken just like any other feat when you meet the prerequisites and have the feat slot available.
• Possessing innate spellcasting from your race is treated as a spellcasting class for the purposes of prestige classes which provide new spells per day, an increase in caster level, and spells known (if applicable) as if you had gained a level in a spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level.

Acknowledgments
Much of the language in these rules was inspired or directly copied from the rules for the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground and/or Villainous Competition, both of which are inspirations for this contest. In addition, this contest would not be possible without the hard work of Inevitability and Debatra, re-assessing entire books’ worth of monsters and templates.

[Thurbane]

Spare time is so precious at the moment, but I really hope to get an entry in!

[Morphic tide]

To be clear, is the chair the OP? I'm going to be waiting for a while anyways to see how the Libre Mortis LAs finish shaking out, because I really want to do something stupid with the Evil Paladin variants.

[InvisibleBison]

I'm definitely going to submit an entry, assuming I can think of one.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Okay, time to put my money where my mouth is, I guess, and actually create some builds for these monstrosities I've been talking up. Got one idea right out the gate, so that's promising.

[pabelfly]

This seems like a pretty fun competition. I'll have a go at making a playable monster.

[ciopo]

Oooooh, I like this!

I assume the standard "la - means it can't be choosed as a player race" , I have no idea if some revised ones gave LA to creatures that previously were "LA -", I've only occasionally taken a look at those megathreads (much thanks to their efforts)

Do we use the standard ECL = RHD+LA+class levels?

I think I'm going to make a something for this, the godzilla VC is giving me headaches

I would put "type must be other than humanoid" as the baseline for "monstrous", with adeguate caveats.

it is unclear to me how to parse "Adventurers designed for this contest must be of a monstrous race. For the purpose of this contest, “monstrous race” excludes all races designed for PC use, unless their level adjustment has been increased by one or more templates." . Obviously this means that LA0 standard sapient races are out, but what about the various LA 0 humanoid races that aren't the classic ones? Are creatures that are traditionally treated as monsters, monsters? Goblins are probably the ur-example, to have a reference.

I already have a couple ideas :3

Also, I'm curious about the reasoning behind "30point buy"

[Remuko]

Oooooh, I like this!

I assume the standard "la - means it can't be choosed as a player race" , I have no idea if some revised ones gave LA to creatures that previously were "LA -", I've only occasionally taken a look at those megathreads (much thanks to their efforts)

Do we use the standard ECL = RHD+LA+class levels?

I think I'm going to make a something for this, the godzilla VC is giving me headaches

I would put "type must be other than humanoid" as the baseline for "monstrous", with adeguate caveats.

it is unclear to me how to parse "Adventurers designed for this contest must be of a monstrous race. For the purpose of this contest, “monstrous race” excludes all races designed for PC use, unless their level adjustment has been increased by one or more templates." . Obviously this means that LA0 standard sapient races are out, but what about the various LA 0 humanoid races that aren't the classic ones? Are creatures that are traditionally treated as monsters, monsters? Goblins are probably the ur-example, to have a reference.

I already have a couple ideas :3

yes the LA assignment threads add "playable" LA to all things, even LA -. You should look thru the archives thread(s?) to see the ratings since that's this whole competitions thing, using the adjustments. :)

Also, I'm curious about the reasoning behind "30point buy"

In the recent LA assignment thread, where he proposed this idea, he originally had posted one that was 32 point buy and someone questioned it, saying that apparently 30 points is the standard for such things, so thats likely the "reasoning" behind 30 point buy.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Oooooh, I like this!

I assume the standard "la - means it can't be choosed as a player race" , I have no idea if some revised ones gave LA to creatures that previously were "LA -", I've only occasionally taken a look at those megathreads (much thanks to their efforts)

Do we use the standard ECL = RHD+LA+class levels?

I think I'm going to make a something for this, the godzilla VC is giving me headaches

I would put "type must be other than humanoid" as the baseline for "monstrous", with adeguate caveats.

it is unclear to me how to parse "Adventurers designed for this contest must be of a monstrous race. For the purpose of this contest, “monstrous race” excludes all races designed for PC use, unless their level adjustment has been increased by one or more templates." . Obviously this means that LA0 standard sapient races are out, but what about the various LA 0 humanoid races that aren't the classic ones? Are creatures that are traditionally treated as monsters, monsters? Goblins are probably the ur-example, to have a reference.

I already have a couple ideas :3

Also, I'm curious about the reasoning behind "30point buy"

The "type must be other than humanoid" doesn't really work, since we have some weird humanoids in the monster manuals (gnoll, locathah, shinomen nagas) that would definitely count as monstrous. About the goblin, just know that the more exotic the race the merrier. That's why there are Monstrosity points. A simple goblin will probably rank pretty low there, but a skeleton woodling goblin with a fiendish symbiont definitely won't.

One of the primary goals of the LA threads was to give LAs to "LA: - " creatures, so none of them still has a la:-. If there really is an ability absolutely not suited for a PC, that's when we use the asterisk and just remove the ability (like the Split ability of Oozes, for example). As of now, we have reviewed only the Monster Manuals I and III, the Tome of Battle, Heroes of Horror, the Fiend Folio, the Expanded Psionics Handbook, and most of the Libris Mortis. You can find the list of all creatures covered and the corresponding LAs here. I guess you could build on another creature, but you will most likely be crippled by it, since official LA are generally much higher than the ones from the LA assignment threads.

The ECL is indeed "number of RHD+Level Adjustment+Class Levels".

30-point buy is probably my fault, I proposed it since I thought that it was the standard for other such competitions, but it was a misreading on my part, and nobody objected. GreatWyrmGold, if you want to come back to 32-points buy, which after checking is the standard for all optimization threads, I don't know where I took that information. Or you could keep it, since our scores will be a bit higher here than anywhere else, this might make the field a bit more equal, at the risk of confusing newcomers.

[GreatWyrmGold]

To be clear, is the chair the OP?

Yup! I just wanted to use the fancy formal term for the discount-legalese OP. Also, if this contest keeps going on and I hand someone else the seat, it reduces the chance that people accidentally send their builds to me.

I assume the standard "la - means it can't be choosed as a player race" , I have no idea if some revised ones gave LA to creatures that previously were "LA -", I've only occasionally taken a look at those megathreads (much thanks to their efforts)

The LA-reassignment threads do not believe in LA —. Obviously, there are some races that you probably shouldn't choose—shriekers don't do much, for instance—but you can pick anything that's been rated.

Do we use the standard ECL = RHD+LA+class levels?

Yup.

I would put "type must be other than humanoid" as the baseline for "monstrous", with adeguate caveats.

The problem is, there are plenty of non-humanoid base races in the splatbooks. The Manual of the Planes is probably the worst offender, but they're everywhere—there's a fey race in Magic of Incarnum, for instance. Also, not all interesting but uncommon templates for humanoids modify type.

But most importantly, I personally think that strict definitions of what is or isn't a monster are undesirable. Monstrosity, like life itself, is difficult to define; you know it when you see it. There will always be some builds that feel monstrous that are left out, and some non-monstrous builds that are allowed.

Also, I'm curious about the reasoning behind "30point buy"

I was told 30 was standard for this kind of contest, so I changed it from 32 to 30.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Rules
(If you can think of a more flavorful name for this section, I'm all ears.)

Perhaps Formulae?

[ciopo]

I like Monster Mash

the 30 point buy stumped me because all other competitions seems to use the 32 point buy, except VC that uses the elite array

I shall not be hasty!

[Troacctid]

If anything, 27 points might be even better! Monsters usually have more than enough ability bonuses to offset lower point buys.

[Remuko]

I like Monster Mash

the 30 point buy stumped me because all other competitions seems to use the 32 point buy, except VC that uses the elite array

I shall not be hasty!

yeah someone in the LA assignment thread told him 30 was the norm not 32 and so he changed it. if what youre saying is true, idk why they said that.

[ciopo]

Question : do we get an ability score increase from racial hit dies?

[Troacctid]

Question : do we get an ability score increase from racial hit dies?

The RAW is no, IIRC. It's considered to be rolled into racial ability mods.

[Thurbane]

The RAW is no, IIRC. It's considered to be rolled into racial ability mods.

This is my understanding as well.

Say you had a monster with 5RHD, it wouldn't get an ability increase from it's 4th HD; but, say it took 3 class levels - it would get one for it's 8th HD (5RHD + 3 class levels).

[ciopo]

Thanks for clearing that up.

I got a philosophical question : this competition is "Monstrous Adventurer Competition"

What I(we?) am(are) drawn to for this competition is of course doing monster shenanigans.

Now, being a monster is clear enough if nebolous and best not rigidly defined, I hope we are clear on that.

But, how important is the "adventurer" part of that? Let's say I pick a monster, slap some class levels on it to bring him to ECL 20 and call it a day.

If the chosen monster is so horrible that there is no way it'd ever be allowed in the sapient society at large, that even in Eberron it would be attacked on sight, I honestly don't see how that could possibly become an "adventurer". Because I don't define "adventurer" as "having class levels".

So, thoughts on the matter?

[Brackenlord]

-snip-

In that case you take your monstrous adventurer to the nearby inclusive tavern, where he can party with others monstrous adventurers as will be seen in this thread.

Perhaps the whole hook of their adventures will be about changing the world's perception of Heteromorph creatures!

[PoeticallyPsyco]

If the chosen monster is so horrible that there is no way it'd ever be allowed in the sapient society at large, that even in Eberron it would be attacked on sight, I honestly don't see how that could possibly become an "adventurer". Because I don't define "adventurer" as "having class levels".

So, thoughts on the matter?

For what it's worth, I still consider the PCs in Evil campaigns to be "adventurers"; just because you're working for the evil overlord (or even just yourself) doesn't mean you're not going on adventures. So there's always that.

[ciopo]

I'm trying to calibrate expectation :), Like, if a build is an adventurer, be it monstrous or not, "bare minimum" is the capability for communication with other party members, and there is the expectation that it will be played in a party with other characters.

Meanwhile, if I'm making a monster for the PC party to encounter and slay, that monster will almost surely operate alone, and it's likely the majority of the CR will come from RHD/templates/adjustments, and only have a little handful of class levels, or even none at all.

So, in the context of this contest, are we making monstrous adventurers or are we making monsters that happens to have class levels?

Because one of the judging metric that's monstruosity, and that gives me more of a vibe like the Villainous competition rather than Iron Chef

But to quote the chair, "These monstrous adventurers are, at the end of the day, still adventurers" , which to me implies heavily that yes, they need to be identifiable as adventurers, and a (fictional) cosmic horror tha functionally can't ever work in a party might get 6 out of 5 on monstruosity, but at the end of the day it fails hard at being an adventurer.

"An adventurer" is just as nebolous as "a monster", but to me at the very least it means that a player will play it and it will go out and about with the monstrous adventurer of the other party members. Sure can be evil no problem with that, but we're making monstrous adventurers, not monsters

I hope I made sense, I tend to ramble when I'm unsure about how to express myself

[GreatWyrmGold]

I like Monster Mash

the 30 point buy stumped me because all other competitions seems to use the 32 point buy, except VC that uses the elite array

What Remuko said. I've had enough people say the exact opposite that I'm going to make it 32-point buy if there's a second one of these.

Question : do we get an ability score increase from racial hit dies?

My understanding is that you don't get ability score increases from the RHD you start with, but if you advance RHD for some reason you do.

I got a philosophical question : this competition is "Monstrous Adventurer Competition"

What I(we?) am(are) drawn to for this competition is of course doing monster shenanigans.

Now, being a monster is clear enough if nebolous and best not rigidly defined, I hope we are clear on that.

But, how important is the "adventurer" part of that? Let's say I pick a monster, slap some class levels on it to bring him to ECL 20 and call it a day.

If the chosen monster is so horrible that there is no way it'd ever be allowed in the sapient society at large, that even in Eberron it would be attacked on sight, I honestly don't see how that could possibly become an "adventurer". Because I don't define "adventurer" as "having class levels".

So, thoughts on the matter?

My thoughts as chair: Not all adventurers get jobs at the local tavern. An ettercap beguiler wouldn't be allowed in most towns, but she might be given missions by various underdark powers trying to covertly influence the surface world. A barbazu barbarian would obey no mortal, but the archdevils are another matter. A gibbering mouther cleric probably wouldn't have quests as we understand them, but would still follow orders from its dark god.

I'm trying to calibrate expectation :), Like, if a build is an adventurer, be it monstrous or not, "bare minimum" is the capability for communication with other party members, and there is the expectation that it will be played in a party with other characters.

...

But to quote the chair, "These monstrous adventurers are, at the end of the day, still adventurers" , which to me implies heavily that yes, they need to be identifiable as adventurers, and a (fictional) cosmic horror tha functionally can't ever work in a party might get 6 out of 5 on monstruosity, but at the end of the day it fails hard at being an adventurer.

"An adventurer" is just as nebolous as "a monster", but to me at the very least it means that a player will play it and it will go out and about with the monstrous adventurer of the other party members. Sure can be evil no problem with that, but we're making monstrous adventurers, not monsters

Further thoughts as chair: If you think your build would have trouble functioning as an adventurer for one reason or another, I would advise addressing these in some way. For instance: The gibbering mouther cleric would have trouble communicating with other characters, but it can prepare lesser telepathic bond if it needs to communicate with others. Or if that's not an option, have it learn Drow Sign Language or put points in Craft (painting) to communicate visually or say it needs a telepathy item. I don't think there's any monster species that can't overcome its issues with enough thought (and certain asterisk abilities removed).
Judges will probably want to take points off somewhere if the solution is too outlandish or unreliable, but I'm not sure where they'd take it off.

I should probably address this properly in the next version of the rules, if there is a next time.

[QuadraticGish]

I've got an idea for a [redacted]. A project that I'll dub the [redacted]. I think it'll be fun if it pans out. Otherwise, I can drag a lot of the concepts to back up plan brass. EDIT: Is LA-buy off in play?

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I've got an idea for [redacted]. I think it'll be fun if it pans out. Otherwise, I can drag a lot of the concepts to back up plan brass. EDIT: Is LA-buy off in play?

No LA Buyoff (otherwise, there would be no reason not to use LA +3 or less creatures for the comp., since it'd be bought off by level 20). Much as I love the rule in actual play, it creates an uneven playing field for these competitions.

Also, be careful of revealing specific parts of your build in the comments. It makes it obvious who the chef (or "mad scientist" for this comp?) was, which could lead to unconscious bias in the judges, but more importantly it might discourage other competitors from trying something similar.

(There was some talk a year or two back about whether the restriction on speculation was doing more harm than good, by stifling the discussion during the build time, but I don't think it ended up going anywhere. The current rule remains "no discussion/speculation on specific build elements" for all the competitions I'm aware of.)

[QuadraticGish]

Fixed and thanks for telling me.

[Remuko]

Fixed and thanks for telling me.

in addition to what the other person said, the LA Assignment Threads all function under the "No LA buyoff" assumption, so if this is using the LA Assignment Threads as its basis it should not use buyoff as well, for that reason too.

[QuadraticGish]

How do I go about asking questions related to mechanics?

[PoeticallyPsyco]

How do I go about asking questions related to mechanics?

Non build-specific ones are fine to go here (LA Buyoff, how RHD interact with the Epic progression, what's the policy on WBL, that kind of thing). For more build specific ones (how do two class features interact, best way to enter a PrC, interpreting a specific feat, that kind of thing), best to have a layer or two of separation. You could start another thread about the question on this forum, ask it on RPG Stack Exchange, or private message the chair (the OP) if it's something about the rules for this competition or how your build interacts with them..

[zlefin]

Seeking some rules clarification;

What are the rules on itemization? Do we just not include items in the build? Do we just get appropriate WBL items for each level? Is there a scoring penalty for specifying certain items to get by certain points? (the last one in particular is a concern of mine, as it's one of the reasons I don't take part in some of the similar competitions)

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Seeking some rules clarification;

What are the rules on itemization? Do we just not include items in the build? Do we just get appropriate WBL items for each level? Is there a scoring penalty for specifying certain items to get by certain points? (the last one in particular is a concern of mine, as it's one of the reasons I don't take part in some of the similar competitions)

Typically, judges frown on a build that will suck if it doesn't have the specific items it needs. If your build is shut down because the DM never gives you the Thundering Britches of Smashy McGee, you can expect a penalty in the Power section.

On the other hand, recommending items (even weird ones) that are helpful but not a necessity is usually fine; that's just advice on playing the character to the best of its ability. I even saw a +0.25 bonus for a good item recommendation once.

And there's usually a lot more leeway given for items that your character can create themselves. You might still get a deduction for being wholly dependent on a specific item, though (being able to craft it yourself won't help you if the DM nerfs it, for instance).

But as always, every judge is different. These are my thoughts, what are other peoples'?