Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

[Thursus]

This question has probably come up before, but the thread might not be active because I couldn't find anything. So I apologize if this is redundant.

Back when Soon, Girard, Serini, et al. decided to split up and guard each gate on their own, weren't they together each time they discovered a rift that the gates would eventually lock up?

They were adventuring together to find each rift right? So at some point in time each of them was physically at each gate? Does that mean that Soon just didn't know where on the map they were when they were on the Western Continent? So he had no way of checking that Girard didn't lie?

[Metastachydium]

It's because delegating all the mapmaking duties to the guy who took two levels of ranger wasn't a very hot move.

[Fyraltari]

This question has probably come up before, but the thread might not be active because I couldn't find anything. So I apologize if this is redundant.

Back when Soon, Girard, Serini, et al. decided to split up and guard each gate on their own, weren't they together each time they discovered a rift that the gates would eventually lock up?

They were adventuring together to find each rift right? So at some point in time each of them was physically at each gate? Does that mean that Soon just didn't know where on the map they were when they were on the Western Continent? So he had no way of checking that Girard didn't lie?

Windy Canyon is in the middle of the desert. So is the point whose coordinates Girard gave him. If Soon did check those coordinates on a map he'd have been liked "Yup, checks out."

[facw]

As others have said, Girard mapped it incorrectly for Soon, and apparently he didn't check. Beyond that, it's not impossible Soon did have the knowledge to actually find it, but didn't pass that information on since he had pledged not to interfere with Girard's gate, leaving the Sapphire Guard to have to get the location from more limited sources.

[Fyraltari]

Yeah, he clearly did not mention the name "Windy Canyon" or any description of it.

[Mike Havran]

Soon probably made clear at some point that he either sucks at reading coordinates or trusts his party completely. Girard just rolled fake coordinates randomly instead of putting more thought into the fabrication. And the surroundings of the fake spot do look fairly different from the canyon, so if Soon had indeed broken his promise and headed for Girard's gate, he would have soon noticed something is amiss.

[Werbaer]

And the surroundings of the fake spot do look fairly different from the canyon, so if Soon had indeed broken his promise and headed for Girard's gate, he would have soon noticed something is amiss.

Or assumed an illusionist is nearby hiding the gate from the world.

[Gurgeh]

I'm not sure why this question keeps on popping up given the comic itself has addressed it more than adequately. Girard didn't do a special fake map for Soon and only Soon - he falsified all of the Order's maps and gave the true location of the gate to Serini, specifically. Soon trusted the information that his comrade had given to the team - something entirely in-character for him - and didn't do any double-checking or other investigation because he had no need to; he was sticking to the terms of the bargain and had no intention of interfering with the gate unless it had already been destroyed.

The "Windy Canyon is a place name, how can you possibly be mistaken about it" angle is pretty flaky, too, given that decades have passed since the Scribblers' adventuring days and the name only ever comes up from secondary sources; in fact, the only source of the name comes from Tarquin relating a third-hand rumour from his ex-wife. It's entirely possible that the name was given after the Draketooths had set themselves up - quite possibly in response to their own illusions, at that.

So much of this seems to be built on assuming that Soon was someone he clearly wasn't. Girard's approach may not have been enough to fool someone who wasn't willing to assume good faith in the defence of the fabric of the world, someone who was driven by misanthropy and consistently assumed the worst of his allies - but since Soon Kim was... not that kind of person, it was enough to fool him - and, by extension, his successors in the Sapphire Guard.

[Fyraltari]

Soon probably made clear at some point that he either sucks at reading coordinates or trusts his party completely. Girard just rolled fake coordinates randomly instead of putting more thought into the fabrication. And the surroundings of the fake spot do look fairly different from the canyon, so if Soon had indeed broken his promise and headed for Girard's gate, he would have soon noticed something is amiss.

Girard wasn't planning on it fooling Soon for long though. It was mostly a way to get some advance warning Soon was coming for him.

[Morquard]

The "Windy Canyon is a place name, how can you possibly be mistaken about it" angle is pretty flaky, too, given that decades have passed since the Scribblers' adventuring days and the name only ever comes up from secondary sources; in fact, the only source of the name comes from Tarquin relating a third-hand rumour from his ex-wife. It's entirely possible that the name was given after the Draketooths had set themselves up - quite possibly in response to their own illusions, at that..

I just want to add to this point (not arguing your point, agreeing with it): A cartographer, a person who's job it is to know the names and location of places, didn't know and didn't care about a whole COUNTRY from two years ago, because nobody does. It wasn't even an obscure one. It was the predecessor of the Empire of Blood, one of the four major powers on the continent. What makes anyone think anyone could point out a specific canyon that may or may not have been there 2 years ago, much less sixty, and that may or may not have changed its name 300 times in between?

[Fyraltari]

I just want to add to this point (not arguing your point, agreeing with it): A cartographer, a person who's job it is to know the names and location of places, didn't know and didn't care about a whole COUNTRY from two years ago, because nobody does. It wasn't even an obscure one. It was the predecessor of the Empire of Blood, one of the four major powers on the continent. What makes anyone think anyone could point out a specific canyon that may or may not have been there 2 years ago, much less sixty, and that may or may not have changed its name 300 times in between?

The country is a political entity it was formed and lasted 11 months. Nobody really remembers the names because they keep changing and being toppled.

The canyon is a natural (probably) formation. It's not going to change names constantly.

Edit: especially when it's in the middle of the desert and not in the territory of either of the Vector Legion's three empires.

[Thursus]

I'm not sure why this question keeps on popping up given the comic itself has addressed it more than adequately. Girard didn't do a special fake map for Soon and only Soon - he falsified all of the Order's maps and gave the true location of the gate to Serini, specifically. Soon trusted the information that his comrade had given to the team - something entirely in-character for him - and didn't do any double-checking or other investigation because he had no need to; he was sticking to the terms of the bargain and had no intention of interfering with the gate unless it had already been destroyed.

The "Windy Canyon is a place name, how can you possibly be mistaken about it" angle is pretty flaky, too, given that decades have passed since the Scribblers' adventuring days and the name only ever comes up from secondary sources; in fact, the only source of the name comes from Tarquin relating a third-hand rumour from his ex-wife. It's entirely possible that the name was given after the Draketooths had set themselves up - quite possibly in response to their own illusions, at that.

So much of this seems to be built on assuming that Soon was someone he clearly wasn't. Girard's approach may not have been enough to fool someone who wasn't willing to assume good faith in the defence of the fabric of the world, someone who was driven by misanthropy and consistently assumed the worst of his allies - but since Soon Kim was... not that kind of person, it was enough to fool him - and, by extension, his successors in the Sapphire Guard.

I guess one of the things I'm not considering is just how massive this continent is, and that Soon is not from there. Maybe I'm just taking all of our tech for granted here on Earth, where you can pin a location immediately and know where you are all the time. It must be very different when you're in a new place that doesn't have a lot of markers, and you are trying to navigate with maps.

[arimareiji]

Girard wasn't planning on it fooling Soon for long though. It was mostly a way to get some advance warning Soon was coming for him.

I get why he would be like that, but to me it seems really messed up that Girard would be in the mindframe "I need advance warning when Soon comes to try to steal or break or do whatever to my Gate".

[Shadowknight12]

I get why he would be like that, but to me it seems really messed up that Girard would be in the mindframe "I need advance warning when Soon comes to try to steal or break or do whatever to my Gate".

Seems like a reasonable precaution when dealing with a paladin who goes on to become the sole leader of a nation.

[arimareiji]

Seems like a reasonable precaution when dealing with a paladin who goes on to become the sole leader of a nation.

If I were Girard, I hope I'd stop to think:
1) What would Soon gain by "having" my Gate, let alone breaking it?
2) If Soon doesn't have nasty motives, what would cause him to seek me out? No matter how much I hate him, I hope "He might need to warn me about something I don't know" would occur to me.

...then again, Girard might (like many humans) have a really bad case of the subconscious ego-defense mechanism "Since I'm an expert in X (in his case, illusions) nothing that anyone knows that I don't could really be that important".

[Gurgeh]

Seems like a reasonable precaution when dealing with a paladin who goes on to become the sole leader of a nation.

I wasn't expecting my "people are talking down a weird version of Soon who lives in their heads and never appeared in the comic" angle to crop up so quickly but here we are.

Just so we're clear: Soon Kim was never the ruler of Azure City. He transferred the leadership of the Sapphire Guard to the ruler of Azure City before he died.

[Fyraltari]

I get why he would be like that, but to me it seems really messed up that Girard would be in the mindframe "I need advance warning when Soon comes to try to steal or break or do whatever to my Gate".

The page we're shown that is called "Paranoia will destroy ya" for a reason.

Seems like a reasonable precaution when dealing with a paladin who goes on to become the sole leader of a nation.

Soon never lead no nation. Even Girard never accused him of that.

If I were Girard, I hope I'd stop to think:
1) What would Soon gain by "having" my Gate, let alone breaking it?

Girard believed that Soon was an authoritarian control freak who wouldn't trust anyone but his lackeys with the safety of the Gates. In Girard's, in Soon's mind, Soon would be doing everyone a favor while actually stroking his own ego.

Also it's possible Girard thought Soon wanted him dead that much over their mutual dislike.

[arimareiji]

The page we're shown that is called "Paranoia will destroy ya" for a reason.

Indeed, I get why he would be like that. But I still think it's really messed up.

Girard believed that Soon was an authoritarian control freak who wouldn't trust anyone but his lackeys with the safety of the Gates. In Girard's, in Soon's mind, Soon would be doing everyone a favor while actually stroking his own ego.

Also it's possible Girard thought Soon wanted him dead that much over their mutual dislike.

Not everyone knows, but Girard is a refugee from when Snarl destroyed the universe of movie theater snacks. He was the theater's projectionist. (^_~)

[Dion]

Remember the end of the movie Fargo where Steve Buscemi buries a bunch of money in the snow, and we realize he has absolutely no idea where he is and he’s never going to find the money again?

He’s probably “near the 112th fence post on pine lane near mud lake, in northern minnesota”. Which describes no less than 100 places.

Much like a canyons called “windy canyon” in a continent spanning desert can be almost anywhere.

[Shadowknight12]

If I were Girard, I hope I'd stop to think:
1) What would Soon gain by "having" my Gate, let alone breaking it?
2) If Soon doesn't have nasty motives, what would cause him to seek me out? No matter how much I hate him, I hope "He might need to warn me about something I don't know" would occur to me.

1) Girard didn't think Soon would break the Gate, he thought Soon would eventually decide that only he knew what was best to defend them, which we know was true from their fight back in the day.
2) That is one big "if" there.

Just so we're clear: Soon Kim was never the ruler of Azure City. He transferred the leadership of the Sapphire Guard to the ruler of Azure City before he died.

Leader of his personal armed forces, then.

[Vahnavoi]

Related, "Windy Canyon" is an extremely generic name.

To give some contrast and comparison, my country has 38 lakes called "Holy lake". It also has 13 lakes and three towns called "Big Lake", and 8 lakes called "Water Lake" (more if you count those called "Little Water Lake" or "Big Water Lake").

We also have three places literally called "Hell".

In order for "Windy Canyon" to be at all distinctive, it would have to be one of very few canyons on the entire continent. A more realistic expectation would be for there to be hundreds of places with that name or equivalent in other languages.

[Fyraltari]

Related, "Windy Canyon" is an extremely generic name.

Passage Pass, The Wooden Forest, The Sunken Valley, Gorge Ravine, Cliffport...

Most of the places in this comic have extremely generic name as a running gag.

[Vahnavoi]

Passage Pass, The Wooden Forest, The Sunken Valley, Gorge Ravine, Cliffport...

Most of the places in this comic have extremely generic name as a running gag.

I can't consider it a running gag because, as I hoped to demonstrate, real place names are exactly that generic. To add to the list, we have over 60 lakes and over 10 towns called "Roach Lake". Then there's at least one that's literally "Lake Lake".

[Resileaf]

I can't consider it a running gag because, as I hoped to demonstrate, real place names are exactly that generic. To add to the list, we have over 60 lakes and over 10 towns called "Roach Lake". Then there's at least one that's literally "Lake Lake".

There's also the fact that a lot of rivers on the British islands are called the equivalent of River River because when the Romans had native guides show them around, they'd ask them the name of the rivers they passed by, but the natives didn't have names for those so they'd just say "It's a river" (in their own language), and the Romans would nod and mark it 'River (native language) River (Latin)' on their maps.

[Vahnavoi]

That process is how we ended up with a different lake with a name that etymologically means "Lake Lake" as well. All that's missing is a clueless English-speaking tourist coming to ask what it's called and ending up calling it the equivalent of Lake "Lake Lake" or "Lake Lake" Lake.

[Metastachydium]

To add to the list, we have over 60 lakes and over 10 towns called "Roach Lake".

You have ten towns infested by AQUATIC roaches?

[Fish]

The Scribblers criss-crossed the continents looking for all the gates they could find. Soon’s idea of how they arrived at that gate could be very vague. Or it could be very specific in a not-very-helpful way.

A modern-day example of finding the Grand Canyon: “It’s a geological formation in central Arizona, north of the town of Williams on Route 66, which is near Interstate 40. Or just find the mouth of the Colorado River in the Gulf of California and go upriver. You can’t miss it. Any map in the last 50 years will use the same geographical place names.”

What it would have actually been like for Soon, searching for the Grand Canyon: “Let’s see, we went to that one little town with that Spanish church, and that guy in the cantina told us about the great big cliffs. We thought that was worth investigating, so we went in the direction of that one river, you remember, the one with the two trees, and that little pond. We made camp there. Anyway, we met that caravan and they said it was farther north, but by a lot, so Dorukan teleported us, and we went back to that one trading post where we bought all those boats, yeah? And we sailed downriver for a bit, and we found some cliffs, and we searched around there with magic for a few weeks, but we didn’t get any leads. So we used the Rope of Climbing to reach the top of the cliffs, covered our boats and supplies with branches, and headed south, and that’s when we passed that one broken-down wagon, and he said we were really close, if we followed that line of sagebrush down that gully toward the southwest.”

[Vahnavoi]

I surmise those towns were right next to one the Roach Lakes, so the name of the lake also became name of the town. I could be wrong - for all I know they could all be names that for distinct reasons.

You are correct in the sense that roaches (the fish) are god damn everywhere. Common roach is locally third most common fish and found in most lakes.

[Metastachydium]

I surmise those towns were right next to one the Roach Lakes, so the name of the lake also became name of the town. I could be wrong - for all I know they could all be names that for distinct reasons.

You are correct in the sense that roaches (the fish) are god damn everywhere. Common roach is locally third most common fish and found in most lakes.

Fair. (In my defense, it sounded funnier (or a lot less funny, depending on the angle one views it from) to assume that the roaches in question are not the fish.)

[Vahnavoi]

I had a chuckle out of imagining a school of roaches drowning a town into a lake.