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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    I'd forgotten the terms were that explicit. It seems clear then that Dorukan and Lirian simply lied when they took the oath then as they likely had no intention of keeping the full terms from the start.

  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    I think it's short-sighted to say Soon (had he been alive) couldn't possibly have helped Dorukan with the Lirian situation because he was a paladin instead of a cleric. He was epic, and a pre-eminent figure in Azure City, so he had access to vast resources well beyond his own personal abilities. Dorukan not asking Soon because of the oath, or because he didn't like him very much, or because he didn't think he'd actually be able to do anything he couldn't do himself (or, well, because he was super dead) I can totally see. Not asking Soon because he wasn't a cleric however doesn't make sense to me.

    That said, it's pretty obvious that access to Resurrection spells was not the problem. Dorukan's clerics (whether they were freelancers or hired staff) could almost definitely have resurrected Lirian if she hadn't been soul-bound. But still, Soon's people might have been able to offer some new insight.
    Last edited by hroşila; 2021-06-13 at 04:45 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    I think it's short-sighted to say Soon (had he been alive) couldn't possibly have helped Dorukan with the Lirian situation because he was a paladin instead of a cleric. He was epic, and a pre-eminent figure in Azure City, so he had access to vast resources well beyond his own personal abilities. Dorukan not asking Soon because of the oath, or because he didn't like him very much, or because he didn't think he'd actually be able to do anything he couldn't do himself (or, well, because he was super dead) I can totally see. Not asking Soon because he wasn't a cleric however doesn't make sense to me.
    There is the distinct possibility that Dorukan simply trusted Soon to stick to his oath, no matter what, and deemed that there's no point approaching him.

    That said, it's pretty obvious that access to Resurrection spells was not the problem. Dorukan's clerics (whether they were freelancers or hired staff) could almost definitely have resurrected Lirian if she hadn't been soul-bound. But still, Soon's people might have been able to offer some new insight.
    Wait a second. How was that even supposed to work? Ressurection needs something that was part of the resurrectee's body at the time of their death and
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    Lirian's body was with Xykon all the way long.
    Last edited by Metastachydium; 2021-06-13 at 04:55 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Ressurection needs something that was part of the resurrectee's body at the time of their death
    Dorukan didn't say specifically the Resurrection spell, so if he had access to Gated angels, it's possible he had access to True Resurrection (via the Gated angels, or high level clerics that the angels recommended), which has no such requirement, but does require that if they were turned into an undead creature, that they are destroyed. Alternatively, it's possible there were blood spills or strands of Lirian's hair at the site of the battle, that Dorukan preserved for Resurrection uses.
    Last edited by Shadowknight12; 2021-06-13 at 07:25 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    I think it's confirmed somewhere that there is no True Resurrection available in OOTS world.

  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by pearl jam View Post
    I think it's confirmed somewhere that there is no True Resurrection available in OOTS world.
    Specifically it exists, but it won't ever feature in the plot because it cheapens death too much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by pearl jam View Post
    I think it's confirmed somewhere that there is no True Resurrection available in OOTS world.
    We know True Resurrection exists in the world and has been a factor in characters' decision-making.

  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    I stand corrected.

  9. - Top - End - #129
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    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Emphases mine.
    They swore not to interfere with the others' Gates in any way and that they are done with each other.
    It's why I specified they didn't interfere in each other's defenses. They certainly didn't fulfill the rest of the oath, but this specific, particular part, they did.

  10. - Top - End - #130
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    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    I think it's short-sighted to say Soon (had he been alive) couldn't possibly have helped Dorukan with the Lirian situation because he was a paladin instead of a cleric. He was epic, and a pre-eminent figure in Azure City, so he had access to vast resources well beyond his own personal abilities.
    This would be an excellent argument if Dorukan wasn't also epic and with access to vast resources well beyond his own personal abilities. Regarding Dorukan's specific problem here, anything Soon could do Dorukan could do better (D could do anything better than S (no he can't (yes he can))). Dorukan could (and did) recruit outside help already, we know this for a fact. There is nothing Soon could have provided that Dorukan could not procure from someone else.


    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    It's why I specified they didn't interfere in each other's defenses. They certainly didn't fulfill the rest of the oath, but this specific, particular part, they did.
    Same. Heck, at this point Soon looks like the only one who did keep to the agreement in every respect. But even then, if someone says they are law abiding they probably won't see speeding as a big deal yet will still balk at murder. Even if the Scribblers had plans to boink or send secret texts about how big of a stinkybutt Soon was, they would almost certainly have not done a damn thing to help the others defend their Gates even if asked (and asking to start with seems right out).
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    Quote Originally Posted by pearl jam View Post
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    Seconded.

  11. - Top - End - #131
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    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    This would be an excellent argument if Dorukan wasn't also epic and with access to vast resources well beyond his own personal abilities. Regarding Dorukan's specific problem here, anything Soon could do Dorukan could do better (D could do anything better than S (no he can't (yes he can))). Dorukan could (and did) recruit outside help already, we know this for a fact. There is nothing Soon could have provided that Dorukan could not procure from someone else.
    A still-alive Soon might have been able to help take down an Epic Lich, but Dorukan had plenty reason to be confident about the fight and that's probably nitpicking at this point.
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  12. - Top - End - #132
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    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    A still-alive Soon might have been able to help take down an Epic Lich, but Dorukan had plenty reason to be confident about the fight and that's probably nitpicking at this point.
    A still-alive Soon swore not to interfere wity the Gates which makes that a non-starter. Which is why I specifically restricted it to Dorukan's issue with raising Lirian.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pearl jam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
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    Seconded.

  13. - Top - End - #133
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    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    This would be an excellent argument if Dorukan wasn't also epic and with access to vast resources well beyond his own personal abilities. Regarding Dorukan's specific problem here, anything Soon could do Dorukan could do better (D could do anything better than S (no he can't (yes he can))). Dorukan could (and did) recruit outside help already, we know this for a fact. There is nothing Soon could have provided that Dorukan could not procure from someone else.
    Sure, but their resources don't need to overlap, and it seems that Dorukan had exhausted his to no avail. All I'm saying is it would have made perfect sense to turn to someone else he knew to also have vast resources at his disposal and to exhaust every option to fix a problem whose importance was paramount to him. I'm not saying it's weird or out of character that he didn't do this.
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  14. - Top - End - #134
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    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    Sure, but their resources don't need to overlap, and it seems that Dorukan had exhausted his to no avail. All I'm saying is it would have made perfect sense to turn to someone else he knew to also have vast resources at his disposal and to exhaust every option to fix a problem whose importance was paramount to him. I'm not saying it's weird or out of character that he didn't do this.
    And I'm saying that no, it doesn't make perfect sense. If you need someone to cosign on a car, are you going to ask one of your exes who said they don't want to deal with you anymore, just because that's someone you know?

    Saying that it makes perfect sense to ask Soon for help just because they used to be in the same group is using specific circumstances to make the case and disregarding specific circumstances that tear apart the case. They were adventurers together, yes. But they also split the entire group and did not want to be involved with each other again (with certain specific exceptions). And while some of them cheated in small ways, the one person who was specially bound by hsi very class to not cheat or go back on his word is the absolute worst person to ask.

    Ditto for the rest of the Sapphire Guard since Soon had neither the skills nor the life to do anything about it. Even assuming that Dorukan knew anything whatsoever about the Sapphire Guard, which we have absolutely zero reason to suspect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pearl jam View Post
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    Seconded.

  15. - Top - End - #135
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    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    But
    Dorukan not asking Soon because of the oath, or because he didn't like him very much, or because he didn't think he'd actually be able to do anything he couldn't do himself (or, well, because he was super dead) I can totally see. Not asking Soon because he wasn't a cleric however doesn't make sense to me.
    "He doesn't have the right spell personally anyway" is the only reasoning I objected to.
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  16. - Top - End - #136
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    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    But

    "He doesn't have the right spell personally anyway" is the only reasoning I objected to.
    Ah, I getcha. My bad.

    That initially grew out of a claim that Dorukan had "allies" that he used which did not include Soon. Said "allies" were clerics, which made sense because, in addition to everything else, they had access to magical abilities that Soon did not.

    "Soon isn't a cleric" was never meant to be the main part of why Dorukan wouldn't ask him. It was just an extra bit of why he would use unafilliated clerics instead, because in addition to everything else, Soon couldn't even offer magical help that a cleric half his level could. The cherry on top, as it were.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pearl jam View Post
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    Seconded.

  17. - Top - End - #137
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    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    "Soon isn't a cleric" was never meant to be the main part of why Dorukan wouldn't ask him. It was just an extra bit of why he would use unafilliated clerics instead, because in addition to everything else, Soon couldn't even offer magical help that a cleric half his level could. The cherry on top, as it were.
    Could even contact an affiliated cleric (knowingly or otherwise), I think; Lirian isn't a Gate, after all, and with her Gate destroyed it wouldn't be possible to interfere with the nonexistent defense of her nonexistent Gate.

    (My overall-unlikely-but-remotely-plausible scenario is that Dorukan cast wish twice in the enumerated fashion to resurrect Lirian, the resurrection failed because her soul wasn't free to return; and he'd been keeping her new body from decomposing with gentle repose every couple weeks, while consulting with clerics who can cast resurrection normally since 5,000XP a shot to try it himself with wish was a problem. And the creepy shrine with her unused body was destroyed when Dorukan's Gate exploded.)
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  18. - Top - End - #138
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    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Because Girard was a paranoid fool who lied to him, and Soon trusted him because A. He's the trusting sort and B. I get the sense he's not exactly knowledgeable about cartography.

  19. - Top - End - #139
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    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    and he'd been keeping her new body from decomposing with gentle repose every couple weeks, while consulting with clerics who can cast resurrection normally since 5,000XP a shot to try it himself with wish was a problem. And the creepy shrine with her unused body was destroyed when Dorukan's Gate exploded.)
    That definitely wasn't the case.
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    Lirian's body served Xykon as a zombie from her defeat to until heck knows how much after Dorukan's been killed.

    That said, it might have been destroyed in the explosion if it was still shambling around at that point (but I'm tempted to assume that it was used up to trigger traps when Team Evil moved into the dungeon).

  20. - Top - End - #140
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    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    That definitely wasn't the case.
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    Lirian's body served Xykon as a zombie from her defeat to until heck knows how much after Dorukan's been killed.

    That said, it might have been destroyed in the explosion if it was still shambling around at that point (but I'm tempted to assume that it was used up to trigger traps when Team Evil moved into the dungeon).
    The description of Wish linked upthread says it can resurect somebody whose corpse is unavailable in two csatings: one to create a second, intact but inert body and another to infise it with the soul of the departed, this new body is the one discussed in the post you replied to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  21. - Top - End - #141
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    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    The description of Wish linked upthread says it can resurect somebody whose corpse is unavailable in two csatings: one to create a second, intact but inert body and another to infise it with the soul of the departed, this new body is the one discussed in the post you replied to.
    Okay, got it then.

  22. - Top - End - #142
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    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    The description of Wish linked upthread says it can resurect somebody whose corpse is unavailable in two csatings: one to create a second, intact but inert body and another to infise it with the soul of the departed, this new body is the one discussed in the post you replied to.
    Could Wish free a soul from soul bind if you knew that was the problem?

  23. - Top - End - #143
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    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by pearl jam View Post
    Could Wish free a soul from soul bind if you knew that was the problem?
    No; soul bind explicitly states that wish can't free the soul after it's been trapped in the gem.
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  24. - Top - End - #144
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    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    rip.

    thanks!

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