Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 61 to 90 of 144
  1. - Top - End - #61
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    arimareiji's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2017

    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    That's hardly of relevance here. Paladins must be Lawful Good to begin with, or else they cannot swear their oath, so they are not Good because of taking the oath, but rather vice versa: they take the oath because they are Good.
    I was trying to answer the question that was asked, that I had quoted, to the best of my ability. My apologies that it's not an answer to whatever question you have in mind, but I don't think it's possible to do both at once.
    "Just a Sec Mate" avatar courtesy of Gengy. I'm often somewhere between it, and this gif. (^_~)
    Founding (and so far, only) member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
    "Only certainty in life: When icy jaws of death come, you will not have had enough treats. Nod. Get treat."

  2. - Top - End - #62
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

    Join Date
    May 2014

    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    Not in the sense of "If X then I absolutely must do Y", no. If I obey a code that requires me to never flee a battle, that can run completely counter to ethics if the nominal enemy I'm battling has been lied to, and there's no way they'll listen to me mid-battle but if they have time to think about it then they'll reconsider.

    At least to my mind, ethics are fluid decision-making... which I'll admit is very vulnerable to human biases and fallacies, so it requires a great deal of mindfulness to not degenerate into self-serving behavior. A code, morals as imposed by society, etc, is following decisions that have already been made.
    If I understand correctly, you are just saying that for you, neutral good is better than lawfull good.

    Why not.

    But why paladins specifically would be worse than any other lawfull good people ?

    I'll edit my post to explain why I say this :
    You are saying that it is better to do what you think is better in opposition to what you have been told is better (no matter who told that).

    So, you can do basically anything you want if YOU think it is better.
    Last edited by Timy; 2021-06-11 at 09:44 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #63
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    arimareiji's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2017

    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    "Ethics" is the branch of philosophy that concerns itself with moral judgment. In common parlance, "ethics" and "morals" are interchangeable. Could you explicit the distinction you make between the two? Because I don't understand your position, as is.
    Done already just above your post, but Merriam-Webster has an interesting discussion of it as well.
    Ethics vs Morals: Is there a difference?

    Ethics and morals are both used in the plural and are often regarded as synonyms, but there is some distinction in how they are used.

    Morals often describes one's particular values concerning what is right and what is wrong:
    [examples]

    While ethics can refer broadly to moral principles, one often sees it applied to questions of correct behavior within a relatively narrow area of activity:
    [examples]

    In addition, morals usually connotes an element of subjective preference, while ethics tends to suggest aspects of universal fairness and the question of whether or not an action is responsible:
    [examples]
    Edit:Adding reply


    Quote Originally Posted by Timy View Post
    If I understand correctly, you are just saying that for you, neutral good is better than lawfull good.

    Why not.

    But why paladins specifically would be worse than any other lawfull good people ?
    "Better" and "worse" are terribly-imprecise words that lend themselves too easily to one's personal preferences.

    I believe that refusing to let ethics get in the way of strict "morality" and "law" can lead to horrific decisions. And "ethics" unmoored from any strict principles can also lead to horrific self-serving rationalizations. It's impossible to say which is going to be the case without specific details, such as "Is it right to destroy the world to prevent the Bad Guy from ruling it?"
    Last edited by arimareiji; 2021-06-11 at 09:53 AM.
    "Just a Sec Mate" avatar courtesy of Gengy. I'm often somewhere between it, and this gif. (^_~)
    Founding (and so far, only) member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
    "Only certainty in life: When icy jaws of death come, you will not have had enough treats. Nod. Get treat."

  4. - Top - End - #64
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Metastachydium's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2020

    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    I was trying to answer the question that was asked, that I had quoted, to the best of my ability. My apologies that it's not an answer to whatever question you have in mind, but I don't think it's possible to do both at once.
    The question, as I understood it was if
    1. following a code makes people less trustworthy in general and
    2. (implicitly, based on context) if paladins are less trustworthy because they follow a code.
    That code based behaviour can lead to nasty stuff is not an answer to either question as far as I'm concerned, since it doesn't make code-based behaviour inherently/usually shady (1) and it irrelevant to the ongoing discussion about paladins because paladins do not forgo ethics in the name of morals for the aforesaid reason (2).
    But, perhaps, we are not talking about the same thing and I merely considered a side discussion part of the main discussion, in which case I'll readily apologise for the inconveniences caused.
    Last edited by Metastachydium; 2021-06-11 at 10:24 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #65
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    HalflingRogueGuy

    Join Date
    May 2018

    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    1. following a code makes people less trustworthy in general.
    In general, I believe it does.

    In practice, “codes” are almost never used to limit behavior. Codes are almost always used to justify behavior.

    Nothing in earth is more dangerous or less trustworthy than someone with justification.
    Last edited by Dion; 2021-06-11 at 10:45 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #66
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Metastachydium's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2020

    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    In general, I believe it does.

    In practice, “codes” are almost never used to limit behavior. Codes are almost always used to justify behavior.

    Nothing in earth is more dangerous or less trustworthy than someone with justification.
    That's a fairly cynical approach, to put it mildly. Lots of people have actual, very strong convictions that guide their actions. That's not necessarily a good thing (and very often it can lead to, khm, unpleasant consequences), but that doesn't mean that these convictions are clever ploys devised to facilitate some shady agenda rather than genuine beliefs.

  7. - Top - End - #67
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    arimareiji's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2017

    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    The question, as I understood it was if
    1. following a code makes people less trustworthy in general and
    2. (implicitly, based on context) if paladins are less trustworthy because they follow a code.
    That code based behaviour can lead to nasty stuff is not an answer to either question as far as I'm concerned, since it doesn't make code-based behaviour inherently/usually shady (1) and it irrelevant to the ongoing discussion about paladins because paladins do not forgo ethics in the name of morals for the aforesaid reason (2).
    But, perhaps, we are not talking about the same thing and I merely considered a side discussion part of the main discussion, in which case I'll readily apologise for the inconveniences caused.
    If you disagree with the answer I provided to the question that I was responding to and quoting, that's absolutely fine and normal.

    Edit: clarity of wording
    Last edited by arimareiji; 2021-06-11 at 01:49 PM.
    "Just a Sec Mate" avatar courtesy of Gengy. I'm often somewhere between it, and this gif. (^_~)
    Founding (and so far, only) member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
    "Only certainty in life: When icy jaws of death come, you will not have had enough treats. Nod. Get treat."

  8. - Top - End - #68
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    It's a class mandated to be Lawful, which as Haley herself says, have an unfortunate tendency of thinking their way of thinking is The Right Way, and trying to impose it on others. This goes double for Lawful Good folk, who are convinced by virtue of their Goodness that their way is not only Right, but also Good.

    "Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents."

    Emphasis mine. Paladins are supposed to refuse aid to people who would use it for chaos (regardless of whether it might be Chaotic Good or Chaotic Neutral ends, which are by definition not evil), and also are compelled to punish those who are even a "threat" to innocents, which means they are encouraged to act before any harm has been done, on people who have done nothing to deserve it. Presumably this is intended to encourage paladins to protect the innocent before they are harmed, but it seems like a bad idea to command them to take preemptive action on mere "threats".

    Furthermore, paladins are harshly punished not only for committing evil acts or ceasing to be Good, but for ceasing to be Lawful as well, and for "grossly violating" their code of conduct, so they are incentivized to adhere to it as strictly as possible.

    With clerics, druids, monks or rangers, you might not know what their specific religious tenets are, or their personal beliefs, so you might be willing to extend the class itself the benefit of the doubt. With paladins, because they are all obligated to follow the same code and class restrictions, you can be certain that while there is room for personality, at the end of the day the paladin must follow the code. This makes it wise and reasonable to keep them at arm's length and not extend them any more trust than necessary.
    It seems to me that you're engaging in some pretty circular thinking there, and I have to raise and eyebrow at you decide to interpret the word "threaten" as being in purely hypothetical terms (which could be possible given certain context) instead "has not caused harm yet, but has expressed intention or based on context is much more likely to so if not stopped before hand" as I imagine most people would interpret that word and phrasing.

    None of which is to say the type of paladin or people you describe don't even exist but, again, the question was if Girard had any reason beyond his own paranoia to assume these things about Soon and the story seems to go wit "no, he did not".
    I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish

  9. - Top - End - #69
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2020

    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    The discussion gets saner if you know how the ethical system put forward by AD&D rules is meant to work.

    Put simply: the conflict between Law and Chaos is not "rigid" versus "flexible". It's large organized groups versus the benefit of individual, AKA collectivism versus individualism. Thus, say, conflict between Lawful Good and Chaotic Good is not just "unflexible good person" versus "flexible good person", the people involved genuinely follow conflicting ethics, for example Altruism versus Objectivism.

    Chaotic people, like Girard, are not actually less zealous about their principles as any kind of a rule; they just have different principles. Principles which, if projected onto a Lawful person, would make that person's action look stupid, self-deceptive, self-sabotaging and inauthentic. No Chaotic person doing such a projection would believe a Lawful person could honestly follow something like a Paladin's code - they would assume the Lawful person is only following the code because they falsely believe it will benefit them, and will break their code if confronted with the truth. The train of thought going "codes don't really control behaviour, they are only used to justify them" is an example of such projection.

  10. - Top - End - #70
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    No Chaotic person doing such a projection would believe a Lawful person could honestly follow something like a Paladin's code - they would assume the Lawful person is only following the code because they falsely believe it will benefit them, and will break their code if confronted with the truth.
    This is a misrepresentation of Chaotic people even within your own framing. Chaotic people aren't inherently egoistical and self-interested, unable to comprehend concepts like "altruism". It's possible that a Chaotic person fully understands the paladin's code and Lawful people in general, and still believe that they cause more harm than good, because of their fundamentally different principles.
    Last edited by Shadowknight12; 2021-06-12 at 09:56 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #71
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Far be it from me to speak to the entire alignment, but Girard clearly did not understand Soon's code.
    Spoiler: Avatar by always-awesome Cuthalion
    Show
    Spoiler: Come down with fire
    Show
    Spoiler: Lift my spirit higher
    Show
    Spoiler: Someone's screaming my name
    Show
    If anyone has a crayon drawing they would like to put on the Kickstarter Reward Collection Thread, PM me.
    Quote Originally Posted by pearl jam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    Peelee's genius status confirmed
    Seconded.

  12. - Top - End - #72
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Far be it from me to speak to the entire alignment, but Girard clearly did not understand Soon's code.
    It's been stated multiple times in the thread, yes. I was responding specifically to the blanket categorization in that post.

  13. - Top - End - #73
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Feb 2017

    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Just a thought, not sure if anyone's said it before, but...
    Soon did know.
    If Soon had followed Girard's co-ordinates, he would've gone 'wait a minute, this is nowhere near where we were before. There was a canyon near the rift, I'm sure of it.'
    But Soon didn't go, because Soon never broke his Oath.
    Neither did any member of the Sapphire Guard, who might have picked up landmark clues (such as a nearby canyon) from written lore.
    The Order were working from third hand knowledge, knowledge that Soon and the rest of the Sapphire Guard trusted to be right because Soon had once trusted Girard and didn't think he'd deceive him like that. Because he's Lawful, and doesn't like the idea of lying, and Good, so he believes people he trusts are trustworthy.
    The Order also didn't start looking for the Gate until 99% if the Sapphire Guard were dead or in hiding (Thanh was still alive at that point), which severely limits the available intelligence the Sapphire Guard could pass on.

  14. - Top - End - #74
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2020

    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    This is a misrepresentation of Chaotic people even within your own framing. Chaotic people aren't inherently egoistical and self-interested, unable to comprehend concepts like "altruism". It's possible that a Chaotic person fully understands the paladin's code and Lawful people in general, and still believe that they cause more harm than good, because of their fundamentally different principles.
    You are reading a part to my argument that isn't actually there. Specfically, I did not claim every Chaotic person would project their principles on others - I only described what happens if they do.

    It is indeed possible a Chaotic person would not do such a projection - but Girard in the comic is not a good example of such a person. Serini might be.

    But more generally, it is not enough to comprehend altruism, one has to genuinely believe people are actually altruistic to believe an argument founded on that claim. Don't let the fact that the argument is about ethics distract you. To give a contrasting example: I fully comprehend homeopathy, but don't believe in any of it, so would reject any argument based on it as nonsense.

    The reverse is equally true: even if a Chaotic person isn't inherently egoistical and self-interested, it's perfectly possible for them to believe that they themselves, and people in general, are. This is also shows the inherence argument is irrelevant: it doesn't matter if people are inherently or actually anything, the only thing necessary for a projection to happen is belief that people are.

  15. - Top - End - #75
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    It's been stated multiple times in the thread, yes.
    And yet you called his actions reasonable. While a character in the comic who is shown to understand paladins calls him a paranoid fool and clearly does not think his actions were reasonable.

    As I see it, we are not supposed to think he was reasonable. We are supposed to think he was incredibly misguided and massively unreasonable. And I, for one, do see him that way, and cannot reconcile his incredibly flawed thought process as "well that seems reasonable".
    Spoiler: Avatar by always-awesome Cuthalion
    Show
    Spoiler: Come down with fire
    Show
    Spoiler: Lift my spirit higher
    Show
    Spoiler: Someone's screaming my name
    Show
    If anyone has a crayon drawing they would like to put on the Kickstarter Reward Collection Thread, PM me.
    Quote Originally Posted by pearl jam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    Peelee's genius status confirmed
    Seconded.

  16. - Top - End - #76
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    At most, you could say there's a scenario in which a reasonable person might still decide it's better not to trust Soon (or any of the others) with the true location of the gate. That is not, however, the same thing as saying that Girard's actions themselves were reasonable because we know they were not made by a person with a particularly rational framework or impression of the person he was judging.

    And that does matter - if someone shots a person because they have a petty grudge against them, but unbeknownst to them the other person was also a murderer who was about to try and kill them too, that does no retroactively make shooting them over the petty grudge reasonable.
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2021-06-12 at 12:38 PM.
    I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish

  17. - Top - End - #77
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Kish's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2004

    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    I get why he would be like that, but to me it seems really messed up that Girard would be in the mindframe "I need advance warning when Soon comes to try to steal or break or do whatever to my Gate".
    Well yes. That's probably why the strip where he assumes the one member of the Order of the Scribble who didn't break the oath is there to violently seize his Gate, and proceeding on that assumption he blows up the heroes of the comic, is titled "Paranoia Will Destroy Ya."

    Edited to add, in response to some other posts in this thread: Oh for...

    Girard was paranoid. Girard fundamentally misunderstood paladins in general and Soon in specific. Girard's perspective was both stupid and completely unreasonable. If you really think otherwise I can only suggest you reread the handful of strips under discussion...and then take off your "paladins bad" glasses and reread them again.

    That says nothing about Chaotic people in general; the Chaotic Haley accurately summarized Girard's errors, including pointing out that "Mr. Booby Trap" clearly didn't understand paladins. It only says something about Girard.
    Last edited by Kish; 2021-06-12 at 12:48 PM.
    Spoiler
    Show
    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  18. - Top - End - #78
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    arimareiji's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2017

    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Well yes. That's probably why the strip where he assumes the one member of the Order of the Scribble who didn't break the oath is there to violently seize his Gate, and proceeding on that assumption he blows up the heroes of the comic, is titled "Paranoia Will Destroy Ya."

    Edited to add, in response to some other posts in this thread: Oh for...

    Girard was paranoid. Girard fundamentally misunderstood paladins in general and Soon in specific. Girard's perspective was both stupid and completely unreasonable. If you really think otherwise I can only suggest you reread the handful of strips under discussion...and then take off your "paladins bad" glasses and reread them again.

    That says nothing about Chaotic people in general; the Chaotic Haley accurately summarized Girard's errors, including pointing out that "Mr. Booby Trap" clearly didn't understand paladins. It only says something about Girard.
    In a semi-echo of what you said about Chaotic people in general, this is not true of every CN character -- but wacky behavior happens often enough that in some circles CN is affectionately nicknamed "Chaotic Stupid".
    "Just a Sec Mate" avatar courtesy of Gengy. I'm often somewhere between it, and this gif. (^_~)
    Founding (and so far, only) member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
    "Only certainty in life: When icy jaws of death come, you will not have had enough treats. Nod. Get treat."

  19. - Top - End - #79
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    And yet you called his actions reasonable. While a character in the comic who is shown to understand paladins calls him a paranoid fool and clearly does not think his actions were reasonable.

    As I see it, we are not supposed to think he was reasonable. We are supposed to think he was incredibly misguided and massively unreasonable. And I, for one, do see him that way, and cannot reconcile his incredibly flawed thought process as "well that seems reasonable".
    The reason not trusting Soon is reasonable is because it doesn't matter if Girard had an accurate reading of Soon's personality or not. Assuming that a person you had a bitter, violent disagreement with is going to abide by their oath and never experience any personality-shaking events is a gamble.

    Everyone saying "Girard didn't know Soon" is missing the point of why the precaution was reasonable. It didn't matter whether Soon adhered to the oath or not, the reasonable route to take is to not risk that being a factor in the first place.

  20. - Top - End - #80
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    The reason not trusting Soon is reasonable is because it doesn't matter if Girard had an accurate reading of Soon's personality or not. Assuming that a person you had a bitter, violent disagreement with is going to abide by their oath and never experience any personality-shaking events is a gamble.

    Everyone saying "Girard didn't know Soon" is missing the point of why the precaution was reasonable. It didn't matter whether Soon adhered to the oath or not, the reasonable route to take is to not risk that being a factor in the first place.
    You originally used the idea that Soon was a dictator to help support that position. Though you changed the verbiage later, I cannot help but think the idea was still ingrained as a pillar on which to prop up the idea that Girard was unreasonable.

    And, more to the point, a reasonable continuance of an unreasonable position is still unreasonable. It's fruit from the poisonous tree. One can be reasonable and still wrong. Girard was not (as Haley herself pointed out).
    Spoiler: Avatar by always-awesome Cuthalion
    Show
    Spoiler: Come down with fire
    Show
    Spoiler: Lift my spirit higher
    Show
    Spoiler: Someone's screaming my name
    Show
    If anyone has a crayon drawing they would like to put on the Kickstarter Reward Collection Thread, PM me.
    Quote Originally Posted by pearl jam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    Peelee's genius status confirmed
    Seconded.

  21. - Top - End - #81
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Metastachydium's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2020

    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    The reason not trusting Soon is reasonable is because it doesn't matter if Girard had an accurate reading of Soon's personality or not. Assuming that a person you had a bitter, violent disagreement with is going to abide by their oath and never experience any personality-shaking events is a gamble.

    Everyone saying "Girard didn't know Soon" is missing the point of why the precaution was reasonable. It didn't matter whether Soon adhered to the oath or not, the reasonable route to take is to not risk that being a factor in the first place.
    So you're implying that Soon was being unreasonable or at the very least careless when he didn't specifically design a death trap in Azure City for Girard and Dorukan, and Dorukan was unreasonable/careless when he didn't create a death trap specifically designed to deal with Soon and maybe Girard? That would be a huge stretch.

  22. - Top - End - #82
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    ~ snip ~

    Edited to add, in response to some other posts in this thread: Oh for...

    Girard was paranoid. Girard fundamentally misunderstood paladins in general and Soon in specific. Girard's perspective was both stupid and completely unreasonable. If you really think otherwise I can only suggest you reread the handful of strips under discussion...and then take off your "paladins bad" glasses and reread them again.

    That says nothing about Chaotic people in general; the Chaotic Haley accurately summarized Girard's errors, including pointing out that "Mr. Booby Trap" clearly didn't understand paladins. It only says something about Girard.
    To be fair, it doesn't seem like that person was talking about Chaotic people in general, just Chaotic people who are inclined to view everyone else through their world view, instead of understanding people can sincerely function under a different code of ethics. Girard was not a person who understood that, and it showed.
    I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish

  23. - Top - End - #83
    Orc in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    massachusetts
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    The reason not trusting Soon is reasonable is because it doesn't matter if Girard had an accurate reading of Soon's personality or not. Assuming that a person you had a bitter, violent disagreement with is going to abide by their oath and never experience any personality-shaking events is a gamble.

    Everyone saying "Girard didn't know Soon" is missing the point of why the precaution was reasonable. It didn't matter whether Soon adhered to the oath or not, the reasonable route to take is to not risk that being a factor in the first place.
    But he didn't take those precautions with Serini, who equally could have had a radical personality change. This wasn't about properly defending the gate from betrayal or infiltration, it was about taking a potshot at Soon specifically.

    And of course this reasonable precaution ended up giving the fake coordinates to people that wanted to help, and the real coordinates to the bad guys.

  24. - Top - End - #84
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Jasdoif's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Oregon, USA

    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    The reason not trusting Soon is reasonable is because it doesn't matter if Girard had an accurate reading of Soon's personality or not. Assuming that a person you had a bitter, violent disagreement with is going to abide by their oath and never experience any personality-shaking events is a gamble.

    Everyone saying "Girard didn't know Soon" is missing the point of why the precaution was reasonable. It didn't matter whether Soon adhered to the oath or not, the reasonable route to take is to not risk that being a factor in the first place.
    The caution was reasonable, certainly. The precaution was predicated on discussing the Sapphire Guard and the Gate, revealed that Serini had the true coordinates, divulged that Girard had less than twelve weeks to develop it, and failed to kill someone significantly lower-level than Soon.

    This was not a reasonable countermeasure. This was Girard's ego trip, dedicated primarily to gloating about how smart Girard imagined he was, so fixated on Soon that it leaked critical information that people who were not Soon wouldn't automatically have; and still didn't have the power to reliably obliterate Soon despite that being the ostensible purpose of having an active countermeasure in the first place.
    Last edited by Jasdoif; 2021-06-12 at 02:09 PM.
    Feytouched Banana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!

    The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas

  25. - Top - End - #85
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    As I mentioned previously, I think Girard trusting Serini was a mistake. And as I also mentioned above, I'm not defending Girard as a person (I think he's quite repulsive), but "distrusting someone you had a near-violent fight with and eliminating the possibility of them finding you" is quite reasonable. Since I find myself having to repeat the same points over and over, I'm just not going to reply to anything that could be answered by something I've already posted.

  26. - Top - End - #86
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Location
    Magrathea
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    As I mentioned previously, I think Girard trusting Serini was a mistake. And as I also mentioned above, I'm not defending Girard as a person (I think he's quite repulsive), but "distrusting someone you had a near-violent fight with and eliminating the possibility of them finding you" is quite reasonable. Since I find myself having to repeat the same points over and over, I'm just not going to reply to anything that could be answered by something I've already posted.
    It was the cause of a mistake in practice, but realistically Girard trusting Serini made sense. As did not trusting Soon, at least insofar as the "random dice roll location" was involved, not the "deathtrap" part.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    The caution was reasonable, certainly. The precaution was predicated on discussing the Sapphire Guard and the Gate, revealed that Serini had the true coordinates, divulged that Girard had less than twelve weeks to develop it, and failed to kill someone significantly lower-level than Soon.

    This was not a reasonable countermeasure. This was Girard's ego trip, dedicated primarily to gloating about how smart Girard imagined he was, so fixated on Soon that it leaked critical information that people who were not Soon wouldn't automatically have; and still didn't have the power to reliably obliterate Soon despite that being the ostensible purpose of having an active countermeasure in the first place.
    Yeah, that deserves more attention now that I think about it.
    Girard sent Soon a random location out of paranoia; but he rigged it with a weak death trap and a lengthy gloat for his own benefit. If I had to guess, the trap was the best he could put together in short order, probably focusing on spread more than power if he's assuming Soon would bring an army. Since it visibly did hefty damage to Roy, and therefore probably got Haley and everyone else down to under 10 HP, I would say it would be enough to extinguish a legion of low to mid level Paladins.

    (One could argue it was meant to be moderately survivable so Girard could find them and then hunt them down, but that's probably giving him too little credit.)
    Last edited by Squire Doodad; 2021-06-12 at 02:46 PM.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.

    Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
    Green is serious talk about hypothetical
    Blue is irony and sarcasm


    "I think, therefore I am,
    I walk, therefore I stand,
    I sleep, therefore I dream;
    I joke, therefore I meme."
    -Squire Doodad

  27. - Top - End - #87
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    As I mentioned previously, I think Girard trusting Serini was a mistake. And as I also mentioned above, I'm not defending Girard as a person (I think he's quite repulsive), but "distrusting someone you had a near-violent fight with and eliminating the possibility of them finding you" is quite reasonable. Since I find myself having to repeat the same points over and over, I'm just not going to reply to anything that could be answered by something I've already posted.
    Even if I agreed with your reasoning (and again, to be clear, I don't), that still wouldn't make Girard's caution "reasonable" because he was not making decisions from a reasonable frame of mind.

    I feel like most people are aware of your position; the disagreement is not born out of misunderstanding.
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2021-06-12 at 03:01 PM.
    I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish

  28. - Top - End - #88
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Kish's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2004

    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    Even if I agreed with your reasoning (and again, to be clear, I don't), that still wouldn't make Girard's caution "reasonable" because he was not making decisions from a reasonable frame of mind.

    I feel like most people are aware of your position; the disagreement is not born out of misunderstanding.
    Indeed. I think even assuming that "reasonable" and "filled with murderous hatred toward Soon" can be reconciled, the reasonable attitude would be, "He's supposed to have the coordinates in case of a dire threat to all the Gates; even if at this moment I'm having trouble imagining someone worse than him, I better not give him fake coordinates."
    Spoiler
    Show
    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  29. - Top - End - #89
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    I feel like most people are aware of your position; the disagreement is not born out of misunderstanding.
    If that's the case, then there's nothing to discuss: to each their own opinion.

  30. - Top - End - #90
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why doesn't Soon know where Girard's Gate is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    As I mentioned previously, I think Girard trusting Serini was a mistake. And as I also mentioned above, I'm not defending Girard as a person (I think he's quite repulsive), but "distrusting someone you had a near-violent fight with and eliminating the possibility of them finding you" is quite reasonable. Since I find myself having to repeat the same points over and over, I'm just not going to reply to anything that could be answered by something I've already posted.
    Then what about the other issue raised - that nobody else gave anyone else fake coordinates, or hid death traps at those fake coordinates? The idea that it was reasonable of Girard implies that it was unreasonable of Soon, Lirian, and Dorukan to have not done the same.

    Do you wish to contend that it was unreasonable for Soon, Lirian, and Dorukan to have not done so?
    Spoiler: Avatar by always-awesome Cuthalion
    Show
    Spoiler: Come down with fire
    Show
    Spoiler: Lift my spirit higher
    Show
    Spoiler: Someone's screaming my name
    Show
    If anyone has a crayon drawing they would like to put on the Kickstarter Reward Collection Thread, PM me.
    Quote Originally Posted by pearl jam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    Peelee's genius status confirmed
    Seconded.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •