A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Nah, it got 5 seasons for no reason

    But I was referring to critical success with its two Emmy wins, numerous award nominations and 97% RT.
    The Last of Us Part II had immense critical success, but you'll be hard pressed to find players who consider that game anything but garbage.

    To pull it back to more friendly ground though, the five seasons is a decent metric for telling if the show was a success because the data we WOULD look at Netflix doesn't share with the public. Lemmy did bring up a decent standard in 'did it get Netflix subscribers to tune in' and 'did it move new She-Ra merchandise for Mattel'? We don't know the former, but we do know the latter. She-Ra did not sell toys for Mattel. To me, that would suggest that kids didn't watch/like the new She-Ra (because if they did, they'd want the toys, unless the toy was truly hot garbage) and it didn't convince the original She-ra fanbase to buy them either. So in that regard, She-Ra: The Princesses of Power is a failure, and considering Mattel is a toy company, its a pretty significant one.

    So did it get people to subscribe? Again, we don't know. It certainly seems to have cultivated an online following of older women/men it seems, but the size of it and how profitable that group is isn't known. The fact Netflix didn't order any more seasons isn't a good sign though. And when I check for future She-Ra plans all I find are two petitions, one for a She-Ra movie and one for a continuation of of the series in some form (movie/seasons/comics/whatever). The former (movie only) sits at 4.7k signed and the latter (continue in any form) was at 115k. I'm no statistician (as should be obvious, lol) but those don't seem like massive numbers to me. For comparison, if the show got that number of viewers on cable, it would be canceled in short order but again, I don't know what that means to a subscription service. I do know I haven't heard about She-Ra or seen it promoted in a way like...Stranger Things has been or even Castlevania on Netflix itself. So again, with just that, my gut would say it wasn't a huge success in that regard either.

    So...how was it successful then? Well, as you mention it DID have critical success which does count for something, its just how much will vary from person to person. And it was successful in cultivating a passionate fanbase, such as yourself, its just unknown how large it is. So it did have its market that it played to well and that is a measure of success. As an adaptation of the original She-ra its..mediocre from everything I've heard, the common complaint I keep hearing being 'Noelle Stevenson had an idea for a show but Netflix wouldn't greenlight it unless it had She-Ra painted over top of it', so it ain't for me haha. I already knew that though and I ain't begruding you for liking it either, my quibble is when people go 'She-Ra is a massive success' or 'its so much better than the old version'. The former is in question and the latter being subjective, neither is grounds for bashing someone else cause they don't like it (which you haven't done, thank you for that) which unfortunately is seen quite a bit. That's where my issue is, toxic parts of the new She-Ra fandom and people saying it was some massive success when frankly we don't know if it was. And people keep saying the old show was just a glorified toy commercial which for one is a fantastic way to insult someone who loves that show, and if someone is going to give that sorry insult? The proper, and equally insulting, comeback is to point out that at least old She-Ra actually sold toys. And in the process created an enduring and adoring fanbase that was the only reason the new She-ra was made in the first place. And it hasn't sold crap which again, if you go by this arbitrary metric means its not going to endure like the 'glorified toy commercial' is.

    ...Well sorry about that, you triggered a long rant about the new She-Ra fanbase that is a particular nerve for me! A lot of this doesn't apply to you and I legitimately am glad that you enjoy it and (As far as I've seen) haven't berated other people for preferring the older versions of She-Ra (and He-Man).

    Quote Originally Posted by Wintermoot View Post
    What toys did you have, which were your favorites?
    I didn't have many of the toys, mostly cause I didn't have a ton of toys as a kid in general, lol. I know I had a couple really awesome He-Man coloring books though and I had the pocket Castle Greyskull toy. I think I had some version of He-man though because I remember owning a Battle-cat toy just...not why I had it, lol. My He-man fandom came much later with the 2002 He-Man which was awesome!

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Why should he be judged based on what you wanted him to deliver? Or care in the slightest?
    Because he himself said that this show was supposed to be a love letter to the fans. That was a lie. He said it would be like if you picked up your old toys right where you left them and told more grown-up stories with them aka a continuation of the original Masters of the Universe. That was a lie. Fans are pissed off at what Kevin Smith has made. A fan base that has survived for forty years with barely any new material to enjoy that this show was supposedly made to entertain and cash in on, and its doing neither of those things. So yeah, he should be judged and care, but the latter is a foregone conclusion. He's already moved on to doing Clerks III.
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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    The Last of Us Part II had immense critical success, but you'll be hard pressed to find players who consider that game anything but garbage.
    Another completely irrelevant comparison for She-Ra's 97% critical and 85% audience ratings.

    Why do y'all think I care in the slightest about Batwoman or Last of Us? Maybe try an analogy that works?

    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    She-Ra did not sell toys for Mattel.
    SRaPP licensed to a variety of sellers, including Mattel, Funko, Lego and many more. You have no data on any of their expected or actual sales, nor how much Netflix cared about them from a revenue standpoint. Streaming services are not network TV.

    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    Because he himself said that this show was supposed to be a love letter to the fans. That was a lie.
    You're assuming his definition of "fan" includes people raging about Teelah.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    The Last of Us Part II had immense critical success, but you'll be hard pressed to find players who consider that game anything but garbage.
    You can find a loud internet minority that will consider anything garbage. No matter how critically or commercially successful.

    That doesn't actually stop them being a minority. Seeing your opinion repeated loudly on the internet does not actually make it commonly held.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post

    As an adaptation Castlevania was a resounding success. (There's that word again.)
    As a show it did fine, as an adaptation of Castelvania is was dog****. There is a difference between these two metrics of success (see I can say it too)

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Why should he be judged based on what you wanted him to deliver? Or care in the slightest?
    Because listening to post release interviews makes it clear he missed the mark because he neither saw potential in delivering an updated but with more stakes and maturity take on the MOTU formula and decided instead to blow up the status quo and deliver something very few people actually wanted because it was easier for him and he had no attachment to it no matter what tune he started singing when the money started rolling in.




    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Another completely irrelevant comparison for She-Ra's 97% critical and 85% audience ratings.

    Why do y'all think I care in the slightest about Batwoman or Last of Us? Maybe try an analogy that works?
    You are aware MOTU: Revelations has a 35% score right? This show is the definition of critics love it everyone else hates it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    You're assuming his definition of "fan" includes people raging about Teelah.
    Why wouldn't it, her character sucked in this. For what character she had in the original this was outright character assassination for her, and several others, and she made a miserable protagonist to watch after the massive shock of the lazy writing bait and switch from the false premise the show was sold on. I'm tired of people retreating back to "The people who don't like it are just haters not real fans so we can dismiss them as irrelevant" for everything when us sad plebes with no taste disagree with the critics.

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    You can find a loud internet minority that will consider anything garbage. No matter how critically or commercially successful.

    That doesn't actually stop them being a minority. Seeing your opinion repeated loudly on the internet does not actually make it commonly held.
    The user score for that one also has a sizable gap from the critical one, although I don't think it makes for a great comparison myself since it was a game that deliberately wanted to cause controversy and it certainly succeded (ON LOOK THAT WORD AGAIN HE HE HE) at that if nothing else. But, much like I am betting will happen here, the success of this will have more to do with how the negative reaction after you have already bought the metaphorical game and played it effects future prospects of anyone bothering with the next "part"
    Last edited by Dragonus45; 2021-07-28 at 03:37 PM.
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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    You are aware MOTU: Revelations has a 35% score right? This show is the definition of critics love it everyone else hates it.
    Or its user reviews have been brigaded by people who are highly motivated to make it appear so....

    Internet user reviews are absolutely worthless. There's no way to even verify that the people making them have actually watched or played the thing they are reviewing.

    They are especially worthless in the case of things which a small, loud, but highly motivated group of very online people dislike (which share a certain set of characteristics completely aside from their quality).
    Last edited by GloatingSwine; 2021-07-28 at 03:43 PM.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    I can't say I had any particular interest in watching the new he-man but if the people that froth at the mouth at the mere mention of She-ra and the princesses of power or tLoU2 hate it then it's probably worth my time to check out.
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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Netflix's barometer for success is tied to subscriptions, or so I've heard. That's why, in addition to casting as wide a net as possible, they tend to be very experimental; they're throwing things at the wall to see what brings in new subscribers and which doesn't.

    Shows like Jupiter's Legacy got the axe quickly because it had a mammoth budget and, according to their metrics, didn't really bring anyone on to the platform or generate positive word of mouth.

    She-Ra and the Princesses of Power was a success in terms of critical and audience reception, even if it probably didn't have a massive viewership. Plus, the animation was fairly cheap and none of the voice actors were huge names.

    You can dismiss the whining of neckbeards on the Internet as irrelevant, but their reaction to the series is factored into Netflix's calculations, as is the fact that no one is really raving about Revelation. Given that it is probably more expensive in terms of animation costs than She-Ra and it has some fairly big names attached, Netflix may be readying the headsman's axe.
    Last edited by Giggling Ghast; 2021-07-28 at 03:58 PM.
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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Or its user reviews have been brigaded by people who are highly motivated to make it appear so....

    Internet user reviews are absolutely worthless. There's no way to even verify that the people making them have actually watched or played the thing they are reviewing.

    They are especially worthless in the case of things which a small, loud, but highly motivated group of very online people dislike (which share a certain set of characteristics completely aside from their quality).

    Yea sure if you say so, when something has good reviews it's all fine and dandy. Something get's bad reviews and it's time to scrap the system because surely no one could dislike this giant pile of moist trash in good faith!
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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    As a show it did fine, as an adaptation of Castelvania is was dog****
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    Because listening to post release interviews makes it clear he missed the mark
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    Why wouldn't it, her character sucked in this
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    You are aware MOTU: Revelations has a 35% score right? This show is the definition of critics love it everyone else hates it.
    1) I was responding to the complaints about She-Ra. I'm well aware MOTU is divisive.
    2) See GloatingSwine's post.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Internet user reviews are absolutely worthless. There's no way to even verify that the people making them have actually watched or played the thing they are reviewing.
    So, just like internet "critic" reviews then? ;P
    Quote Originally Posted by Pickford View Post
    I don't understand your point. Why does it matter what I said?

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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

    Not really, nothing I said about the Castelvania or Warren Ellis was wrong. Neither has anything I said about Kevin Smith provably lying to people about both his investment in the franchise or the direction he wanted to take it. It's clear in retrospect he either didn't care or didn't have the talent to write the series without blowing up it's status quo to make his life easier.
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    1) I was responding to the complaints about She-Ra. I'm well aware MOTU is divisive.
    I missed that sorry.
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    2) See GloatingSwine's post.
    See my response to him about what am elitist lazy nonargument it is for people to pretend that any time something gets bad reviews it must be in bad faith.


    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    You're assuming his definition of "fan" includes people raging about Teelah.
    Oh you never answered my question. Why wouldn't the definition of fan include people who didn't like the show He Man's entire first season being about Teelah
    Last edited by Dragonus45; 2021-07-28 at 04:00 PM.
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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr View Post
    So, just like internet "critic" reviews then? ;P
    Named critics actually have something to lose (reputation and employment).

    Anonymous randoms don't.

    The former are motivated to operate to at least some standard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    See my response to him about what am elitist lazy nonargument it is for people to pretend that any time something gets bad reviews it must be in bad faith.
    It turns out there's a reliable predictor of bad faith internet user reviews, but the rules of the board prevent us from probing it further than encouraging the interested reader to examine common features of the characters present in media which have been mentioned here..
    Last edited by GloatingSwine; 2021-07-28 at 04:04 PM.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Named critics actually have something to lose (reputation and employment).

    Anonymous randoms don't.

    The former are motivated to operate to at least some standard.
    If you say so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    Oh you never answered my question. Why wouldn't the definition of fan include people who didn't like the show He Man's entire first season being about Teelah
    The Show isn't called "He-Man" or "He-Man and the Masters of the Universe", though, is it? It's just "The Masters of the Universe"

    Maybe that should've been a clue. And maybe that means your preconceptions of what the show is were what was off-key.

    As far as "Elitist, Lazy" narratives, I will say that I haven't seen the show yet so I can't really speak to how good or bad Teela ends up being. But I will say that all of the complaints I've seen so far "Disgruntled, Weary-worn, Turning her back on her old friends and colleagues, wanting to escape her old life, angry, begrudging about having to save the world again" etc. I can't help but think that those same qualities figure in the selling points and what people like about a number of male protaganists from various anime and other media I can think of. Sounds like Wolverine, Edward Elric, The guy from Scryed, Cowboy Bebop and a number of others where "angry, loner who doesn't play well with others" is seen as traits of a strong lead character.

    I have no problem with you not liking something. I have no problem with you posting about how you don't like something. Again, I only have a problem with you then proscribing your dislike as some objective truth or saying that everyone, or even a majority of others agree with you. I really dislike people stating that their opinions are facts.

    I will also say that someone several pages ago posted a withering take down of the scene where Orko sacrifices himself, comparing and contrasting Teela to Evil-Lynn in that scene. I went ahead and watched that scene on YouTube and it doesn't come across in any way like the way it was described here. Not in the slightest. *shrug* Frankly, that was absolutely a case of the critic infusing their own feelings and prejudices into the narrative rather than a weakness of the narrative.
    Last edited by Wintermoot; 2021-07-28 at 04:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Wintermoot View Post
    I have no problem with you not liking something. I have no problem with you posting about how you don't like something.
    It kind of feels like you do have a problem, as you're involving yourself in a debate over a show you haven't seen outside of a Youtube clip or two.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggling Ghast View Post
    It kind of feels like you do have a problem, as you're involving yourself in a debate over a show you haven't seen outside of a Youtube clip or two.
    Man if only you had finished reading the whole paragraph instead of just stopping like that.

    I actually came into this thread because I'm a big he-man fan from my childhood and I wanted to see what the opinions of the show were to see if it was worth renewing my netflix subscription.

    And for the first couple pages, man, there were a LOT of negative opinions about the show and I thought "oh what a shame, i was really hoping they made something good out of this."

    But then I started to notice a distinct pattern to the complaints and negative opinions and thought "hey this seems familiar..."

    so then I went to youtube and looked up "reviews of Masters of the Universe" and WOW was there a LOT of negative reviews there. I mean, pages and pages of them.

    So then I watched a couple and... you know what... there was that pattern again....

    So then I picked a few at random and went to the channels for the reviewers to see what else they posted and WOW was that a dark and terrible place to find myself.

    So, then, finally I came back and looked at the posters from here that were giving such terrible reviews and noticed a few names I've... well that I've noticed before.

    So yeah... I'm going to go with what DeadMech said. Based on the quality of hatred aimed at this show... I will probably enjoy it. *shrug*

    but I think I'll peace out of this thread now.
    Last edited by Wintermoot; 2021-07-28 at 04:54 PM.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Wintermoot View Post
    As an outside observer, whether or not you like something seems to be the PRIMARY driver on whether you call is successful or not. But that's just a perspective from viewing your posts, I obviously can't read your mind. But no matter how many metrics or evidence you are presented to prove something you don't like was successful, you always dismiss and change goal posts to maintain your stance that it's not successful.
    You know literally nothing about me, but because I'm unconvinced by the... ahem... "evidence" presented online about the quality and success of something, you think I am being biased and intransigent... Oh, the irony...

    Yoou're the one defending a show I didn't even attack.

    A lot of the "evidence" presented in these discussions, even when accurate, are most often barely surface level...

    If you spend a billion dollars to make a movie/series/game/whatever and then get 1.1 billion back... Well... On the shallowest of analyses, you can indeed call that a success. But that ignores a lot of factors. Specially if said movie/series/game/whatever causes the franchise to lose popularity from the public and/or the confidence of investors (specially those who would like to buy ads and/or sell merchandise of the product).

    Quote Originally Posted by Wintermoot View Post
    This is absolutely not true. Especially of Netflix that has gone to extreme lengths to make sure they get included and earn as many industry awards as possible because they believe the awards, and publicity, lead to more subscribers as well as legitimizing them as a media studio. So awards is ABSOLUTELY a goal for them.
    So awards are publicity... Exactly what I said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    You keep asking this question, and the only way to measure it from the outside is the fact that they kept greenlighting more seasons. This is Netflix we're talking about, they're not shy about cancelling stuff abruptly. They didn't do that here, so it must have been making enough money. QED.
    That was a rhetoric question.

    I was asked what I consider a success, so I answered. Then I was asked if a particular show was successful. I don't know, so all I can answer is what condition would lead me to say "Yes" or "No". If that condition was fulfilled, then it was a success, if not, it wasn't, but I don't know if it was... So that's the best answer I can give.
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2021-07-28 at 04:42 PM.
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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Wintermoot View Post
    The Show isn't called "He-Man" or "He-Man and the Masters of the Universe", though, is it? It's just "The Masters of the Universe"

    Maybe that should've been a clue. And maybe that means your preconceptions of what the show is were what was off-key.
    Ah yes the show that was advertised as being about He Man, where the chief creative voice of the series repeatedly reinforced that is was a show all about He Man, (and insulted people who said otherwise when some details of his absence leaked) wasn’t about him at all and I guess that’s my fault for thinking it would be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wintermoot View Post

    As far as "Elitist, Lazy" narratives, I will say that I haven't seen the show yet so I can't really speak to how good or bad Teela ends up being. But I will say that all of the complaints I've seen so far "Disgruntled, Weary-worn, Turning her back on her old friends and colleagues, wanting to escape her old life, angry, begrudging about having to save the world again" etc. I can't help but think that those same qualities figure in the selling points and what people like about a number of male protaganists from various anime and other media I can think of. Sounds like Wolverine, Edward Elric, The guy from Scryed, Cowboy Bebop and a number of others where "angry, loner who doesn't play well with others" is seen as traits of a strong lead character. .
    And this is where the difference between the idea of a story and execution meet. And in this case it wasn’t pretty. They aimed for gruff and hit total *******, and did it with a character for whom the change was a massive departure from who they were before. If this was really the route they needed to go down they at least needed to do a few episodes establishing what they wanted the new status quo to be to lessen the whiplash, but I guess that would need Smith to bother “writing Superman” in a more straightforward way which is something he said several times he couldn’t be bothered to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    It turns out there's a reliable predictor of bad faith internet user reviews, but the rules of the board prevent us from probing it further than encouraging the interested reader to examine common features of the characters present in media which have been mentioned here..
    Let me guess, at least one of these reliable predictors is disagreeing with you?
    Last edited by Dragonus45; 2021-07-28 at 04:56 PM.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    You can find a loud internet minority that will consider anything garbage. No matter how critically or commercially successful.

    That doesn't actually stop them being a minority. Seeing your opinion repeated loudly on the internet does not actually make it commonly held.
    Boy howdy ain't that the truth.

    Of course, it's pretty simple to call critics a "vocal minority". Or to call bad reviews "brigading".

    It's also easy to pretend that a dearth of positive audience reviews is not evidence of anything, and a majority of negative audience reviews is not evidence of anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    Yea sure if you say so, when something has good reviews it's all fine and dandy. Something get's bad reviews and it's time to scrap the system because surely no one could dislike this giant pile of moist trash in good faith!
    Indeed. I wonder... are we to take the ~30% of audience fresh reviews at face value? Or are some of those fake as well? How many, and which ones? Are all of the negative ones illegitimate? How do you determine that?

    Oh right... have a preconceived notion that the show is not that bad and if there is a large negative reaction it's contrived and not based on anything factual.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wintermoot View Post
    The Show isn't called "He-Man" or "He-Man and the Masters of the Universe", though, is it? It's just "The Masters of the Universe"

    Maybe that should've been a clue. And maybe that means your preconceptions of what the show is were what was off-key.
    And the technicalities continue to try and justify what very clearly were some terrible creative decisions.

    The movie was called Masters of the Universe as well. Was Teela the main character in the movie? No? Who was it? Any idea? It could be literally anyone! It's just titled Masters of the Universe. We should have no expectations whatsoever because... reasons.
    I can't help but think that those same qualities figure in the selling points and what people like about a number of male protaganists from various anime and other media I can think of. Sounds like Wolverine, Edward Elric, The guy from Scryed, Cowboy Bebop and a number of others where "angry, loner who doesn't play well with others" is seen as traits of a strong lead character.
    Nice of you not to watch the show but proceed to judge its critics as holding a double standard. Really comes across as objective and reasonable.

    Watch the show. If you like it, I am genuinely happy for you.
    I will also say that someone several pages ago posted a withering take down of the scene where Orko sacrifices himself, comparing and contrasting Teela to Evil-Lynn in that scene. I went ahead and watched that scene on YouTube and it doesn't come across in any way like the way it was described here. Not in the slightest. *shrug* Frankly, that was absolutely a case of the critic infusing their own feelings and prejudices into the narrative rather than a weakness of the narrative.
    Given that you came in here to judge the critics of holding a double standard (and likely far worse if I were to guess, but I dare not risk the mods) without even watching the show, I'll take your comments about prejudices and projection with a giant grain of salt.


    The attitude of many people these days implies that there is only so far you can criticize a piece of work before you venture into "illegitimate opinion" territory. If I care about my opinion being accepted, the most I should muster would be something like "It's not the best show ever or anything, but it's not terrible" and people would like this just fine. But to actually criticize its elements and suggest that poor decisions were made, well, I'm just a rando on the internet... who asked me and why should anyone care? I'm not a certified critic! Shame on me for having a strong opinion! My dark intentions and evil prejudices are made bear for all to see!!!

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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    I heard there's a new He-Man series coming up, but it's CGI.

    I've only seen He-man's new design... And it's... Meh... I hope it turns out better than Revelation.
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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Another completely irrelevant comparison for She-Ra's 97% critical and 85% audience ratings.

    Why do y'all think I care in the slightest about Batwoman or Last of Us? Maybe try an analogy that works?
    The analogy still works, I'm pointing out that critical praise does not necessarily equal audience enjoyment and there is in fact a growing disconnect between the two. For LoU and Batwoman, as well as the Last Jedi (a movie I personally enjoyed), those are just particularly notable cases, mostly that critics are becoming divorced from what audiences want or expect. Sometimes they line up but its gotten to the point that I personally do not trust critics when it comes to movies or TV shows anymore. Especially when there's an obvious bias at play.

    It also wasn't pure analogy but just a joke to keep things light.



    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    SRaPP licensed to a variety of sellers, including Mattel, Funko, Lego and many more. You have no data on any of their expected or actual sales, nor how much Netflix cared about them from a revenue standpoint. Streaming services are not network TV.
    Netflix also doesn't own She-Ra either. Netflix was brought on to do a show for Mattel. So it being successful for Netflix is separate from it being successful for Mattel. It has not been successful for Mattel but old She-Ra has been. And we cannot tell if its successful for Netflix because Netflix is remarkably opaque in that regard. So for the people who actually own the She-Ra IP (Mattel) the show has flopped. Did it flop for Netflix? No sweet clue and you are right, streaming services are not network TV but that's something I noted in my prior post. I don't know what are 'good numbers' for streaming services or how its measured, so I compared it to the only really comparable thing (even if they aren't that close) in network TV. And again, I'm not saying the numbers I found were crisp, clean, and definitive, they were the only numbers I could find, my point was if if they were in anyway comparable to say, a Nielsen rating or network TV then the ratings weren't good. Which has absolutely no bearing on the quality of the show itself.

    And you're right, I largely have anecdotal evidence but its in the same line as the Sequel Trilogy not being popular (which it isn't even if I had a good time myself). I don't have the hard data on sales, but what I do have are eyes that see shelves stocked with clearance items of Sequel Trilogy characters at absurdly low prices that are still crammed full. Same with SRaPP. I've seen a decent number of pictures from He-Man and She-Ra conventions (Powercon) where none of the new She-Ra merchandise is being sold or even really cosplayed, there's just not interest there t seems which lines up with what I've heard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    You're assuming his definition of "fan" includes people raging about Teelah.
    It absolutely should since those are the fans he was trying to court by his own admission. And now he, and you by extension, are saying people raging about Teelah aren't real fans. Well first off, who are you (or him!) to define who a real fan is? And why aren't they fans just because they don't agree with you?

    Cause you know what one of the big problems is? Kevin Smith is not a fan himself, by his own admission, which means he has absolutely no grounds to stand on. He considered the show dumb and 'for babies', his own words. He didn't watch or like it. That's not someone putting words into his mouth or twisting what he said, that came from Kevin Smith.

    So yeah, he has no capacity to decide who is or is not a fan and he should definitely listen to the people who ARE fans and just want a good He-Man show. Why would he do that though when he doesn't care? Not when he can just deflect any criticism by saying people need to 'grow the f*** up' or that they aren't real fans because reasons?

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    You can find a loud internet minority that will consider anything garbage. No matter how critically or commercially successful.

    That doesn't actually stop them being a minority. Seeing your opinion repeated loudly on the internet does not actually make it commonly held.
    This is true, just look at Twitter and what its done to the American comic book industry, haha.

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Or its user reviews have been brigaded by people who are highly motivated to make it appear so....

    Internet user reviews are absolutely worthless. There's no way to even verify that the people making them have actually watched or played the thing they are reviewing.

    They are especially worthless in the case of things which a small, loud, but highly motivated group of very online people dislike (which share a certain set of characteristics completely aside from their quality).
    They're just like critical reviews. Cause I've legitimately seen reviews that aced the show because Teelah is the main character in the first part and/or because they hinted at an LGBT relationship between Teelah and Andora. That's the only reason. That's a worthless review and yet its shamelessly held up as more credible than the audience.

    Cause you're right, there are plenty of ways to fake reviews and we've seen them go both ways. For every * review of 'show sucks cause Wahmen is the main characterz!!!21' there's another ***** review of 'amazeballs, slay queen, who needs He-Man?' or 'voting five stars EVEN THOUGH I HAVEN'T SEEN THE SHOW'. ...I capitalized that last part because its particularly infuriating to me and its legit a number of user reviews I've seen. Yes there's hyperbolic reviews saying its the worst thing without giving much in the way of real criticism, but they at least watched it some of the time. To admit you're doing the opposite just to stick it to people is infuriating. Cause at the end of the day, user reviews aren't worthless, but we've now entered an age where you can deflect any criticism by just blaming the audience for not liking it. That its somehow their fault they don't like what's being presented to them which is bull crap. And you're making the same excuse the creatives types are falling back on 'oh, the audience doesn't like it, ITS BEING BRIGADED!'. Or, maybe, just maybe, the audience doesn't fuggin' like it.
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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    I heard there's a new He-Man series coming up, but it's CGI.

    I've only seen He-man's new design... And it's... Meh... I hope it turns out better than Revelation.
    You're referring to the second Netflix series, right? Yeah, I saw some pics...looks like He-Man forgot about leg day.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    Castlevania also was kind of awful as an adaptation of its material, with he author rewriting whole swaths of character backstory to fit his ideological hang ups and cutting whole main characters from the story he was adapting. Aside from some of the character names very little made it in.
    The difference with Castlevania over He-Man is that Castlevania's story is beyond barebones, and its backstory is...optional, at best.

    You can literally sum up most of the games' plots with famous lines from them (eg. "What a horrible night to have a curse."). Or in the case of Castlevania 1, a 10 second opening crawl with no dialogue, that is literally all you need to know about the plot. Man with whip. Spooky castle. Done.

    He-man is a series I always found dreadfully boring, so I never watched it, but it definitely has some kind of lore and story to it. Moreso than Castlevania.

    That's what makes Castlevania so ripe for adaptation. You can do pretty much anything you want with it and it works, so long as you keep the basic elements. Dracula bad. Belmont good. Whip go *crack* kill bad guy. You can't even get onto the writer for changing backstory because the GAMES THEMSELVES change backstories on a whim; did you know Trevor had three entirely different character designs and personalities in the games he appeared in? I didn't!

    He-Man, as mentioned, had expectations. Not only were those expectations subverted, which can be a good thing, they were subverted under false pretenses, in order to essentially trick people into watching it. That tells me Kevin Smith had zero confidence in the ability of the show to sell itself on its own merits. Why would anyone watch a show whose creator doesn't give a **** about it?

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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    You're assuming his definition of "fan" includes people raging about Teelah.
    And why it shouldnt? A fan can dislike an element of a show. A fan can dislike arcs, seasons, characters, endings, plot points and more without losing their right of being a fan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jidasfire View Post
    On a long enough scale, every OOTS forum discussion turns into a debate about alignment, Miko, or Familicide.
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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    I can't say anything about the show itself, but I can say something about the debacle surrounding user reviews:

    Pareto's principle applies to both user reviews and Twitter outrage. 80% of site activity stems from 20% of users, with potentially as large of a share as 50% of activity contributable to just 1%.

    However, professional critics are obviously just another vocal minority themselves. They are part of that 1%. So neither pro critcs nor internet reviewers anonymous can be taken as true voice of the people. For majority of discussions, the majority of people are silent and the true popular opinion is uknown. This is the reason arguments from popularity tend to suck.

    However, arguments from money also suck. We're talking of non-vital enterntainment products, manufactured demand is theme of the day. Even a bad product can sell for a while if the advertizing is on-point, and even a good product can fail to sell if the adverts are a dud. It isn't necessarily clear to the producer which is happening, which is why shows sometimes linger well past the point where they jumped the shark, or get their wings cut just before they would've started to fly.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    I can't say anything about the show itself, but I can say something about the debacle surrounding user reviews:

    Pareto's principle applies to both user reviews and Twitter outrage. 80% of site activity stems from 20% of users, with potentially as large of a share as 50% of activity contributable to just 1%.

    However, professional critics are obviously just another vocal minority themselves. They are part of that 1%. So neither pro critcs nor internet reviewers anonymous can be taken as true voice of the people. For majority of discussions, the majority of people are silent and the true popular opinion is uknown. This is the reason arguments from popularity tend to suck.

    However, arguments from money also suck. We're talking of non-vital enterntainment products, manufactured demand is theme of the day. Even a bad product can sell for a while if the advertizing is on-point, and even a good product can fail to sell if the adverts are a dud. It isn't necessarily clear to the producer which is happening, which is why shows sometimes linger well past the point where they jumped the shark, or get their wings cut just before they would've started to fly.
    To your point, Kevin Smith said in one of his livestreams that he went to the Netflix execs all worried about the backlash and wondering about the future of Revelation and they were like "bro, don't even worry about that nonsense, we got all these subscriptions" and Kevin was like "but all the mean people" and they were like "no man, the math is in our favor, who cares", and he literally made the argument we are seeing in this thread of "Why should anyone care about your opinion on this show?".

    This would seem to suggest that whether it gets another season or not is not really indicative of the quality, but rather that people were interested to see the show. Which of course goes without saying, if there wasn't a fanbase in the first place they wouldn't reboot the thing. Conceivably, no one could like Revelation and it would still get a second season because enough people subscribed to Netflix to watch it.

    This is the "But Last Jedi made this much money" argument. Of course, you can't like or not like something without watching it first, but the very fact that you bought a ticket to watch it is used as evidence that it is good.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    He-Man, as mentioned, had expectations. Not only were those expectations subverted, which can be a good thing, they were subverted under false pretenses, in order to essentially trick people into watching it. That tells me Kevin Smith had zero confidence in the ability of the show to sell itself on its own merits. Why would anyone watch a show whose creator doesn't give a **** about it?
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    Okay, but riddle me this: If Keven Smith had been up front and outright said, "Hey, He-Man dies in the first episode and most of the narrative is about Teela instead," wouldn't people instead be ranting about spoilers instead?

    People keep acting like Smith's refusal to outright state He-Man dies is a deception, meant to fool people, but isn't it far more likely he just didn't want to spoil the big plot twist in his show?

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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by JadedDM View Post
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    Okay, but riddle me this: If Keven Smith had been up front and outright said, "Hey, He-Man dies in the first episode and most of the narrative is about Teela instead," wouldn't people instead be ranting about spoilers instead?

    People keep acting like Smith's refusal to outright state He-Man dies is a deception, meant to fool people, but isn't it far more likely he just didn't want to spoil the big plot twist in his show?
    There's that old stand by of:

    Not saying anything at all, except perhaps praise the animators, designers, sound track artists, etc.
    Don't know your name but bring the pain.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by JadedDM View Post
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    Okay, but riddle me this: If Keven Smith had been up front and outright said, "Hey, He-Man dies in the first episode and most of the narrative is about Teela instead," wouldn't people instead be ranting about spoilers instead?

    People keep acting like Smith's refusal to outright state He-Man dies is a deception, meant to fool people, but isn't it far more likely he just didn't want to spoil the big plot twist in his show?
    In addition to what Lurkmoar posted, he could also have been up front with "He-Man is indisposed for much of this series, for plot reasons which will become clear early on. It focuses on Teela as she comes into her own as a hero rather than a sidekick."

    Honest, but vague.

    Or...screw spoilers. If the ENTIRE PREMISE OF THE SHOW is based around something, it's not a spoiler, it's improtant enough to go on the back-of-the-box blurb. Avatar the last Airbender doesn't try to play coy about stuff like "people can shoot fireballs", so why would the series' creator lie about something integral to the plot? "He-Man dies and the series focuses on the emotional fallout of that."

    The only conclusion (well, the most generous conclusion, I can think of some more cynical ones) I can really come to is that he did not have confidence in the strength of his writing being able to carry that premise, but went ahead anyway.
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2021-07-28 at 07:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Dr. Samurai: you reply is basically a case-in-point for my last paragraph. In that anecdote, the Netflix executives are acting like sane, rational people. Given the evidence they had, they didn't have a reason to care. It's possible their evidence was bad. Kevin Smith clearly didn't think too hard about, otherwise he would've pointed it out.

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