A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Here's the thing though.

    You aren't "the fans", you don't speak for "the fans". You speak for a contingent of very online people who make the same predictable complaints over and over again no matter the franchise or subject.
    Right... Because you are the final arbiter of who is or isn't a fan... And predictably, fans conveniently are those who agree with you.

    And clearly anyone who doesn't like the new series isn't a fan. Because the fault is never with the product or the giant corporation who produced it. The only reason anyone could have to dislike the show is because they are toxic, sexist, racist, immature, etc.. Only positive opinions are valid. It's always "the toxic fans". So say our corporate overlords and their pet "professional" critics. Don't complain. Don't question. Consume product and then be excited for next product.

    Imagine a world where Hollywood doesn't lie to us... Where studios actually care about what the audience wants to see from their beloved franchises, rather than pulling a bait-and-switch mean-spirited deconstruction of beloved characters and franchises, then acting outraged when people dislike it.

    BTW, I don't claim to speak for anyone other than myself. I'm just tired of the same inane arguments used to dismiss any and all criticism. I'm not "the fans", but I'm certainly a fan... Just not of this particular version. And I can use pretty much your exact words to say the exact same thing about people defending this show (and others).
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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    Right... Because you are the final arbiter of who is or isn't a fan...

    And clearly anyone who doesn't like the new series isn't a fan.
    That isn't actually what I said.

    What I said is that you are not "the fans". You claim to be speaking for all of the fans of the original show, because you are using absolutist terms like "slandering and gas-lighting the fans."

    You do not. Your opinions are, in fact, far more marginal than you think.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    That isn't actually what I said.
    That's what you implied.

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    What I said is that you are not "the fans". You claim to be speaking for all of the fans of the original show, because you are using absolutist terms like "slandering and gas-lighting the fans."
    Where did I claim to speak for anyone other than myself? I described what the producers and medias are doing to fans... Not that I speak for all fans.

    Clearly I'm not the only one with a negative opinion of the show. Clearly others who have a negative opinion are already being insulted, slandered and gas-lighted.

    "They're just trolls". "They don't like it because it has a female protagonist". "They are immature". "Kevin Smith never said it was a He-Man show". etc, etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    You do not. Your opinions are, in fact, far more marginal than you think.
    Right back at you.
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  4. - Top - End - #214
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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    There's nothing wrong with having an opinion, nor using the internet to voice that opinion.
    The problem comes in when people start presenting their opinions as unassailable objective facts. For example:

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I'd expect a score as low as 30% to be leveled at a show that failed on both a narrative and technical level. But whatever you think about Teelah and Kevin Smith's plotting, MOTU is beautifully animated and scored, and voice-acted to the rafters. No one is saying the show is perfect, but it's a far cry from 30%. That makes it easy to conclude review-bombing is happening, especially when (as above) we've seen it so many times before in similar circumstances.

    I mean, that's just your opinion man......





    But a mediocre show with a highly controversial bait and switch premise easily equals thirty percent without having to declare everyone who disagrees with you a bad actor.
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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    That isn't actually what I said.

    What I said is that you are not "the fans". You claim to be speaking for all of the fans of the original show, because you are using absolutist terms like "slandering and gas-lighting the fans."

    You do not. Your opinions are, in fact, far more marginal than you think.
    I really dont know what you are trying to get at. People have the right of a negative opinion because at the end of the day, whether an experience is liked/disliked, will depend on how each individual feels about the experience. There is no "true" way to enjoy/hate something.

    And there is slandering of fans (especially if you have read the answers given by his creator). And we also have some answers here, just look at some of the answers. Only one side has accused the other of not being genuine (guess which side). Even when I questioned your opinion on your review, I literally questioned an aspect that I saw as a positive to it that you saw as a negative. I think you are letting yourself be taken by the hate and reacting to it.

    I will repeat my point again. People have a right of an opinion whether good or bad, whether objective or biased, whether is the context or the subtext. People can like something that general public thinks is garbage. People can dislike popular and well liked stuff. There is a time where we will be the unpopular opinion and that is alright.
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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post

    I wouldn't be interested, but not for the reason you're thinking. We have a surfeit of shows centered around determined CIA agents and hotshot fighter pilots. What we don't have nearly as much of are shows about characters like Teelah - the sidelined female sidekick(/love-interest?) who must grapple with the idea that her heroes were deeply flawed while also taking on their mantle, or one very close to it.
    And yet I can enjoy The Flash where the sidekicks get equal time on screen and often the focus of the episode. I get to enjoy Superman and Lois where Superman is barely on screen, instead he's Clark Kent, and Lois gets the stories, her sons gets the stories, and Lana and her family get the stories.

    No, this He-Man is a bait and switch., It's not the story we were promised.
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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    I mean, that's just your opinion man...
    The Dragonus45 abides...

    Honestly, the problem of the series in three-fold:
    1) The sacking of old favorites has been a relentless frustration for aging fans. One bad reboot can be forgiven, ten gets irritating, and at this point we're at or near a full-on rebellion. He-man was held as one of the few "safe" from this because it's premise was by nature too distasteful for the muck-rakers to approach, but even this has now been pulled out and used against us. This leaves the fan base already agitated and on edge well before the product was released. It was primed to be volatile simply because it has no present-day fan base and the nostalgic fans didn't want to see it get corrupted by modern day politics (modern day standards for art and storytelling could have been appreciated, however).

    2) It was handled poorly before release. Things would have gone very differently if they'd said up front that "Yes, Teela will be the focal character. He-man is critical to the story, but we want to explore the rest of the cast and the world itself more closely. We're going to make Teela a badass, but she's not He-Man." Or even a wink of the eye and a teasing "You'll just have to wait a few more months to see for yourselves." Either response would have annoyed old-school fans, but not angered them to the degree claiming this was a He-Man focused series. (Which is accurate, in that He-man's absence and failures are the focus rather than his presence and successes.) This is always struck me as a stupid decision to antagonize your fans this way when the end result was always going to come out, though I believe Smith was trying to tell the truth and the fans took it to mean something different than what he meant. However, Smith's behavior since has doubled and tripled down: telling an already irate fan-base to grow the <redacted> up and that nobody cares about their opinion was absolutely not the way to placate them.

    3) The series was not presented well. The concept of five episode "seasons" is galling in the first place, plotting it in the manner that it (ten episodes with potentially all the He-Man in the last 5) was a poison pill. I expect if all ten were presented as a single set, it would work better. I expect anyone coming to it after the second half is released will find it far less... polarizing. If they put all the things that would piss off the fans in the first half and all the things that would please the fans in the second half (to be optimistic), a six-month gap between the two halves is far worse than delaying the first half another year.

    Put bluntly, I don't think the series is *bad*. We have seen bad. Honestly, we can even kinda grow to love bad, as long as there's passion in it (if not talent). However, this series was primed to anger an already agitated fanbase, charged with poor representation and misleading promises, and then set off with poor presentation and insulting post-release follow-ups.

    I do, however, feel that this series is extremely polarized, with people "bombing" both sides of the reviews. This series is in absolutely no way a 1/10, and it is just as decidedly not a 10/10. It's passable, not great. The only thing that makes it worth noting at all is it's ties to a vocal group of people's childhoods, otherwise it'd be just another animated series that simply exists and is forgotten.
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  8. - Top - End - #218
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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Calemyr View Post
    2) It was handled poorly before release. Things would have gone very differently if they'd said up front that "Yes, Teela will be the focal character. He-man is critical to the story, but we want to explore the rest of the cast and the world itself more closely. We're going to make Teela a badass, but she's not He-Man." Or even a wink of the eye and a teasing "You'll just have to wait a few more months to see for yourselves." Either response would have annoyed old-school fans, but not angered them to the degree claiming this was a He-Man focused series.
    You mean how they explicitly said that's what it was going to be in the panel where they first announced it?

    I knew that's what the first part of the plot was going to be two years ago.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Yeah, it's almost like these people are wearyingly predictable and we haven't seen this exact pattern a thousand times before. Captain Marvel, Watchmen, Total War 2, Ghostbusters, TLJ, Batwoman. At some point the sites can set their watch to it.
    But Psyren, these shows are also becoming wearyingly predictable as well and so are the defenses of them. Two sides have obviously coalesced around this new wave of media. To my mind however, one side thinks it has some sort of high ground from which to judge the other side, and a vocal minority acting on that belief always pops up in these conversations.

    The best thing to do, if we're to continue discussing new shows, is to avoid guessing at the motivations of others. I think I explained my reasons for not liking the characterizations well enough. No one needs to agree with me, but certainly I don't want my opinions to be reduced to "of course that's what he thinks, he's a disgruntled neckbeard on the internet!".
    There's nothing wrong with having an opinion, nor using the internet to voice that opinion.
    The problem comes in when people start presenting their opinions as unassailable objective facts.
    Well, for my part, everything I say here has a big IMO before it. I think that should go without saying in these discussions. Even when I say that Kevin Smith objectively made terrible creative choices with Revelation, it's still my opinion.

    I was never going to like Teela's characterization here. Or Duncan's for that matter, or Orko's lol. My tastes can be pretty narrow sometimes. But I recognize that about myself. If people like the show, great! But someone mentioned Wolverine earlier; I was always a Cyclops guy. I am not interested in seeing evil Superman, despite how popular Injustice was. Characters like Davos and Jorah from GoT are not my favorites because I don't really like the devoted servant trope, so I didn't like seeing Duncan and Orko trip over themselves to appease someone that abandoned them years ago and never looked back.

    And mostly, I like heroes. I really really like brave, noble, protectors. I am currently playing in Descent to Avernus and it irks me how much the campaign (or DM, not sure) tries to subvert the good characters or compel them to evil. But I know a lot of people enjoy playing around with morality and having that sort of grey zone to roleplay in.

    So when I see Duncan throw himself to his knees and beg forgiveness, I know that Adam/He-Man would lift him back to his feet and tell him it's okay, he's just glad to see an old friend. And those are the types of characters I enjoy watching or reading about. Characters like this iteration of Teela are a dime a dozen in real life; less fantasy and escapism and more simulation for me lol.
    I'd expect a score as low as 30% to be leveled at a show that failed on both a narrative and technical level. But whatever you think about Teelah and Kevin Smith's plotting, MOTU is beautifully animated and scored, and voice-acted to the rafters. No one is saying the show is perfect, but it's a far cry from 30%. That makes it easy to conclude review-bombing is happening, especially when (as above) we've seen it so many times before in similar circumstances.
    I mean, you can certainly draw the conclusion. I am still not sure it reflects on the actual quality of the show though.

    I would venture that there probably is an over-representation among the negative reviews, but not because people are attempting to deceive everyone. I put forth that there is such a hivemind or echo chamber that these new directions are so amazing and wonderful, and such a coordinated attack on any dissent, that some people want to make sure its known that they think these movies/shows are bad.

    I think TLJ is absolutely terrible, and I was never once compelled to leave a rating on any website.

    With regards to Revelation though, I do like the self-less and heroic portrayal of both He-Man and Adam. That is definitely my jam. I am not sure how I feel about the transformation to He-Man over the original prince-in-disguise, but I think I like the transformation. I also DO think that there is an interesting story in this what-if scenario. The King was lied to, and the Queen knew all along. Teela was lied to by her adventuring companions. There IS a lot to unpack there. But I don't think this way was interesting or respectful to the characters. Kevin Smith is more answering the question "What if Teela was just angry at all the main characters all the time?" as opposed to "What if Teela found out Adam is He-Man?".
    I doubt his admonishments to "grow up" are aimed at people he thinks of as true fans.
    I don't mean to keep quoting you but your comments are inspiring my own thoughts... I find it interesting that Kevin is admonishing fans in this way, when I feel precisely the same way about Teela and Duncan and Orko. As I mentioned in an earlier post, He-Man accepts his responsibilities dutifully in this show, whereas Teela acts like (IMO) a child, and Duncan and Orko act to appease this child.

    @Calemyr: I generally agree with what you said.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    I would have liked to see them explore ALL of the sidekicks, not just Teelah. Let us see how each of them deals with He-Man's death. Make it into a true ensemble show.
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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    You mean how they explicitly said that's what it was going to be in the panel where they first announced it?

    I knew that's what the first part of the plot was going to be two years ago.
    I love the notion that fans have been waiting 35 years for Teela to be the main character in He-Man. Absolutely hilarious and said to a round of applause .

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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
    I love the notion that fans have been waiting 35 years for Teela to be the main character in He-Man. Absolutely hilarious and said to a round of applause .
    A round of applause at Power-con

    It turns out that He-Man fans actually were into that idea...

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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Indeed. I'm sure they expected it would be well executed though when they were applauding .

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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    A round of applause at Power-con

    It turns out that He-Man fans actually were into that idea...
    And I am fine with the idea. I am not fine with people disregarding people who dislike the final product.
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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    A round of applause at Power-con

    It turns out that He-Man fans actually were into that idea...
    They were when the assumption at at least prince Adam would be around, especially when you consider the creator repeatedly saying it was still his show and the show as entirely about him. The two Deuteragonists was the general assumption and Kevin Smith went out of his way to reinforce that even after slightly off but still in the right ballpark leaks started coming out to show the shape of what we actually got.
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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    The problem with the new He-Man is not because Teela is female. The problem is because of the bait and switch. It was claimed to be a continuation of the original show. Updates expected and accepted. That's not what we get. They kill He-Man, and now the show is about Teela getting him back. No! No! No! That's not what we were promised nor wanting. It would have been the same issue if it was Man At Arms or Orko trying to get He-Man back.
    "Continuation of the original show" doesn't mean it has to be the same structure and format of the original show.

    If the story started with He-Man as an established hero who fights skeletor, he technically achieved his statement of being a continuation. Just because you don't like the structure doesn't not make it a continuation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    There was another He-Man reboot years ago. A complete new show, new artwork, new everything. It went into detail of the origins of Skeletor and He-Man. It showed how they come to look like they do, why they do what they do. We learn the story of Castle Grayskull and the Sorceress. We get a story about Skeletor's Snake Mountain fortress with more detail and focus in season 2. It was clearly different in tone and intent than the original show, but it was still He-Man.
    Yhea, but this isn't a "He-Man" show. it's "Masters of the Universe" that's a continuation of the original.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    How would you have liked it if in the Wonder Woman reboot Wonder Woman dies 20 minutes into the film, and the rest of the movie was about Steve Trevor trying to find a way to revive her? Black Panther dies 20 minutes into the movie saving the life of the CIA agent, who spends the rest of the movie exploring Wakanda technology looking for a way to revive him?
    The premise doesn't make or break a film. It's the execution that matters.

    We had a godzilla movie where the title character dies midway through the film. We had a Transformers movie where Optimus Prime is killed at the start. One was an absolutely horrible movie, the other was one of the best movie of its genre.

    Point is, it doesn't matter if you present a movie concept that sounds bonkers. What matters is the execution, so critique the execution of MotU instead of the story it was trying to tackle.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    Yhea, but this isn't a "He-Man" show. it's "Masters of the Universe" that's a continuation of the original.
    Yea that must be why the creator put so much effort into reinforcing the idea that it would be a He Man show then.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    The premise doesn't make or break a film. It's the execution that matters.

    We had a godzilla movie where the title character dies midway through the film. We had a Transformers movie where Optimus Prime is killed at the start. One was an absolutely horrible movie, the other was one of the best movie of its genre.

    Point is, it doesn't matter if you present a movie concept that sounds bonkers. What matters is the execution, so critique the execution of MotU instead of the story it was trying to tackle.
    True enough, but some premises take a lot more work to make work to really execute then others, especially when dealing with sequels and when you get a show as thoruhgly mediocre as this, like I said earlier I think pretty animation, ok voice acting, generally having it's main character dramatically shift personalities with very little exploration of the change, and inconsistent tone across the season that landed more on goofy on accident edgy then "mature and cool" outside of like three scenes, then you absolutely need to consider how well the premise fit as a sequel to begin with and how the needs to stretching to fit that premise potentially warped the needs the writing needed to fulfill to make it work. Also, it is totally valid to critique the story they made on it's own when the creators worked hard to warp peoples expectations of what it would be. The negative feelings and reactions that causes are real and valid to base criticism off of. They knew they were putting out a 5 episode season that existed entirely to let set up a new status quo for the real series when He Man comes back. They were already willing enough to spoil from the start the idea of a radical shift in the series and if they had said outright that they were releasing a 5 episode prequel about the world without He Man to set up the series, exactly what this Teela stuff really was, then the tone of this entire wider discourse would be wildly different.

    :Edit: Also I once again go to my example of a She Ra sequel that killed of Adora episode one and then proceeded to focus on the one Male character of the cast, who is now disproportionally grumpy, and his boyfriend alongside some random male villain and relegate the various princesses to side characters. How do you think the target audience of such a thing would react to that outside any context of how good it actually is. Not every premise fits regardless of hypothetical quality.
    Last edited by Dragonus45; 2021-07-29 at 01:52 PM.
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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    I just want to point out another thing that I liked in the show, even though it existed for literally like half a second...

    For whatever reason, and I think it's because of the implied sort of power and freedom maybe, I really like heroes that can leap very far . Think John Carter from Mars, or the Incredible Hulk. I am currently playing a leonin totem barbarian in Descent to Avernus and if we reach level 14 I plan on grabbing Eagle Totem and describe the turn-only flying speed as large jumps, and I hope to jump around Avernus just like my D2 Barbarian spamming Leap Attack in Hell .

    So there's a split second in the fight against Skeletor in the first episode where He-Man leaps across the battlefield and I was like this speaks to my soul lol.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Yeah, it's almost like these people are wearyingly predictable and we haven't seen this exact pattern a thousand times before. Captain Marvel, Watchmen, Total War 2, Ghostbusters, TLJ, Batwoman. At some point the sites can set their watch to it.
    When a bunch of different productions have similar flaws, they will face similar criticism and backlash. What else did you expect?

    And honestly... What is even more predictable is how these productions turn out, and how their producers, paid media and other advocates go about defending them.

    - Announce reboot of beloved franchise.
    - Use the OG fanbase as a marketing tool ("It'll be modernized, but still stay true tot eh original!")
    - Pull a bait-and-switch. It's some sort of mean-spirited deconstruction where fan-favorites are turned into failures and/or horrible people, and their achievements are unmade... All to uplift a new character no one cares about. And possibly also to make very heavy-handed (but overly simplistic, if not downright idiotic) social-political commentary (but a very politically correct and mainstream commentary - can't have people actually thinking and considering different PoVs).
    - Fans are understandably angry and frustrated by the end product. Give negative reviews.
    - Studio/media shills/advocates go on the old tired "It's just trolls!". "It's just a vocal minority". "They don't like female protagonists!". "Why do you care? Don't you have real problems?". "The original sucks, anyway!". "This wasn't made for you! Even though trying to bank on the original fandom is the whole reason this production exist!"
    - Franchise loses interest from the public, and its merchandise sales go down... Even though critics are supposedly just a "small vocal minority on the internet".
    - Studio/media shills/advocates double down and triple down on insulting, slandering and gas-lighting the audience. Insist that the production was a success because it technically made more money than it cost to produce.
    - Merchandise sales goes down the drain.
    - A few months go by...
    - Studio announces another reboot. "This time it'll be different!"

    Rinse and repeat.
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2021-07-29 at 04:06 PM.
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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Calemyr View Post
    You know, Kevin Smith actually did give some good advice regarding this, actually: The other shows still exist. I went and looked them up on youtube. Haven't seen the 80s show in ages and never saw the 2002 show before. Gotta admit I was oddly impressed by the 80s version - there was some witty writing in there. It doesn't all fly anymore (if it honestly did back then), but it manages to be light and fun and a nice break. Also, one of the first episodes I found had a time-freezing killer robot that had Kermit the Frog's voice (not Henson himself, I'm sure, but it sounded like an intentional homage), and that's something I could not help but smile at.

    The 2002 version, well, I only saw the initial 3-parter so far, but it strikes me as everything Smith claimed he wanted. A feeling of stakes, better combat, much better writing on average, an Adam that looks and acts like you might expect an athletic 16 year old would look and act, less goofy character designs that still capture the initial's spirit, and a Skeletor that (so far) does an excellent job balancing cheese and menace in a very engaging way. I love Teela in this version, as she's a complete badass but still is capable of fun - smiling every bit as broadly as Adam as they continually try to one-up each-other during a sparring match. The show could easily go down hill from there, but that opening really shows everything I expected from Smith's version (although I expected more violence in Smith's version).
    Honestly, that is true. The other shows do still exist and this doesn't replace them. The one problem is that...much like the Sequel Trilogy, Revelation is meant to be the 'this is what happens next' for the original show. Its how the series actually progress unless Mattel steps out and says 'hahaha, don't worry this was all just a 'what if?' or alternate timeline!'. Not the same with the 2002 series because it was a self-contained entity even if sadly it never finished thanks to mismanagement and advertising.

    And man, I'm so glad you're watching the 2002 version. I legitimately still remember the 3-part openr and just how much fun and cool it was. It doesn't really go downhill either, He-Man suffered a bad case of 'executive meddling + cheaper-to-produce-alternative (Ninjago) for the same role the network wants filled' and got the axe. But yeah, when Smith talked about what he wanted, my midn went to the 2002 version and initially got hopeful cause that show rocked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calemyr View Post
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    Honestly, the problem of the series in three-fold:
    1) The sacking of old favorites has been a relentless frustration for aging fans. One bad reboot can be forgiven, ten gets irritating, and at this point we're at or near a full-on rebellion. He-man was held as one of the few "safe" from this because it's premise was by nature too distasteful for the muck-rakers to approach, but even this has now been pulled out and used against us. This leaves the fan base already agitated and on edge well before the product was released. It was primed to be volatile simply because it has no present-day fan base and the nostalgic fans didn't want to see it get corrupted by modern day politics (modern day standards for art and storytelling could have been appreciated, however).

    2) It was handled poorly before release. Things would have gone very differently if they'd said up front that "Yes, Teela will be the focal character. He-man is critical to the story, but we want to explore the rest of the cast and the world itself more closely. We're going to make Teela a badass, but she's not He-Man." Or even a wink of the eye and a teasing "You'll just have to wait a few more months to see for yourselves." Either response would have annoyed old-school fans, but not angered them to the degree claiming this was a He-Man focused series. (Which is accurate, in that He-man's absence and failures are the focus rather than his presence and successes.) This is always struck me as a stupid decision to antagonize your fans this way when the end result was always going to come out, though I believe Smith was trying to tell the truth and the fans took it to mean something different than what he meant. However, Smith's behavior since has doubled and tripled down: telling an already irate fan-base to grow the <redacted> up and that nobody cares about their opinion was absolutely not the way to placate them.

    3) The series was not presented well. The concept of five episode "seasons" is galling in the first place, plotting it in the manner that it (ten episodes with potentially all the He-Man in the last 5) was a poison pill. I expect if all ten were presented as a single set, it would work better. I expect anyone coming to it after the second half is released will find it far less... polarizing. If they put all the things that would piss off the fans in the first half and all the things that would please the fans in the second half (to be optimistic), a six-month gap between the two halves is far worse than delaying the first half another year.

    Put bluntly, I don't think the series is *bad*. We have seen bad. Honestly, we can even kinda grow to love bad, as long as there's passion in it (if not talent). However, this series was primed to anger an already agitated fanbase, charged with poor representation and misleading promises, and then set off with poor presentation and insulting post-release follow-ups.

    I do, however, feel that this series is extremely polarized, with people "bombing" both sides of the reviews. This series is in absolutely no way a 1/10, and it is just as decidedly not a 10/10. It's passable, not great. The only thing that makes it worth noting at all is it's ties to a vocal group of people's childhoods, otherwise it'd be just another animated series that simply exists and is forgotten.
    I don't really disagree with anything here, haha. Its a pretty accurate summary.
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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    Where studios actually care about what the audience wants to see from their beloved franchises,
    See what I mean Dr. Samurai? "The audience" as if there is only one, spoken as objective fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    To be fair that was review bombed by disgruntled Three Kingdoms fans when that got cancelled.
    That may have been one reason, sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    And yet I can enjoy The Flash where the sidekicks get equal time on screen and often the focus of the episode. I get to enjoy Superman and Lois where Superman is barely on screen, instead he's Clark Kent, and Lois gets the stories, her sons gets the stories, and Lana and her family get the stories.

    No, this He-Man is a bait and switch., It's not the story we were promised.
    As I've mentioned previously, Teelah isn't Lois Lane. She's a warrior, and is on par with the other secondary heroes. A Lois Lane show is a completely different premise, and in my view would likely be either boring or farcical.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    I'd give it a 3/10.

    Art is good. Animation is good. Voice-acting is good.

    Pacing is bad. Writing is terrible. Characterization is even worse.
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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    See what I mean Dr. Samurai? "The audience" as if there is only one, spoken as objective fact.
    I was talking about a hypothetical audience in a hypothetical world... What? Should I use plural, instead? Should I say "total audience"? "Most of the audience"?

    Is that really the level of debate we want to have now? Nitpick grammar and words out-of-context to try and prove the other side wrong?
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2021-07-29 at 03:50 PM.
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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    I'd give it a 3/10.

    Art is good. Animation is good. Voice-acting is good.

    Pacing is bad. Writing is terrible. Characterization is even worse.
    I mean, it's Kevin Smith. What else could we expect? I'm not sure why anyone would put him in charge of something they don't expect to turn into a farce, at this point. I'm guessing Netflix decided that the original cartoon's writing was so bad, he really couldn't make it worse than that.
    Maybe they think he has "nerd cred" or something because he's got a podcast about comic book movies, so superfans would be more interested in the project with his name attached? Or that he'd generate more interest by promoting the show for free on his podcasts?
    Anyway, it would be a surprise if Kevin Smith wrote something that wasn't terrible.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    To be fair that was review bombed by disgruntled Three Kingdoms fans when that got cancelled.
    Also you really need to specify what you mean by "Total War 2". Eg. As I recall Total War Warhammer 2 was ALSO "review bombed" on launch because it was functionally unplayable.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    See what I mean Dr. Samurai? "The audience" as if there is only one, spoken as objective fact.



    That may have been one reason, sure.



    As I've mentioned previously, Teelah isn't Lois Lane. She's a warrior, and is on par with the other secondary heroes. A Lois Lane show is a completely different premise, and in my view would likely be either boring or farcical.
    Analogy is lost on you. You're being too literal.

    Bringing back 1960s Batman! Yay. Nah, it's really about Aunt Harriet not believing Bruce is dead searching the world for him. Boo!
    Buck Rogers in the 25th Century reboot! Yay. Nah, Buck is killed, or is he? Follow the adventures of Wilma Deering to find out. Boo!
    Bring back Hero show! Yay. Nah, kill off hero and it's about sidekick instead. Boo!

    The sidekick can have his or her own show, but let it have been about that character in the first place instead of telling us it's about the hero. No one's complaining about Robin and Titans without Batman. No one complained about Supergirl without Superman. People did complain about the latest Terminator. They were all excited about Linda Hamilton returning. What do they do? Kill John Connor, undo everything, and have a whole new Terminator mythos. Bait & switch. They should have realized the danger of doing that with the bad reaction to the previous film of time loop shenanigan's killing off the original terminator and cyborg John Connor.
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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    See what I mean Dr. Samurai? "The audience" as if there is only one, spoken as objective fact.

    That may have been one reason, sure.

    As I've mentioned previously, Teelah isn't Lois Lane. She's a warrior, and is on par with the other secondary heroes. A Lois Lane show is a completely different premise, and in my view would likely be either boring or farcical.
    It really is weird that you pick only certain arguments and ignore everything else that has been said. Why not address the rest of what has been said?
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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    Bringing back 1960s Batman! Yay. Nah, it's really about Aunt Harriet not believing Bruce is dead searching the world for him. Boo!
    Buck Rogers in the 25th Century reboot! Yay. Nah, Buck is killed, or is he? Follow the adventures of Wilma Deering to find out. Boo!
    Bring back Hero show! Yay. Nah, kill off hero and it's about sidekick instead. Boo!

    The sidekick can have his or her own show, but let it have been about that character in the first place instead of telling us it's about the hero. No one's complaining about Robin and Titans without Batman. No one complained about Supergirl without Superman. People did complain about the latest Terminator. They were all excited about Linda Hamilton returning. What do they do? Kill John Connor, undo everything, and have a whole new Terminator mythos. Bait & switch. They should have realized the danger of doing that with the bad reaction to the previous film of time loop shenanigan's killing off the original terminator and cyborg John Connor.
    To the examples you're mentioning here and the point you are making, look at The Mandalorian. It's not exactly a reboot, as there was no previous "The Mandalorian", but it is a Star Wars reboot. And it's got a 91% Audience score on Rotten Tomatoes. The Mandalorian very obviously is not trying to reinvent the wheel here or, more specifically, reimagine the franchise. Fans, of all kinds, simply have to press PLAY and they instantly recognize what they are watching and I think that lends itself to the enjoyability (enjoyability has a red line under it so I guess I am mangling the English language here and inventing a word for no reason). I think the story elements and the characterization are key here.

    Recall, the last episode of Season 2 of the Mandalorian had three female characters leading the climax at the end. The show wasn't "brigaded" and heads didn't explode.

    I think we should allow more leeway for critiques of these reboots and not assume that people will reflexively dislike any handling of an old franchise/reboot. I think two things would have made Revelation work for me:

    1. Manage my expectations by explaining that these first five episodes are a setup to a greater story that will be told. I think this is necessary because sidelining He-Man and Skeletor for the last four episodes just seems weird for a He-Man reboot, and Teela's characterization is such a contrast that it really is not what I was expecting. (Note though, it's five short episodes, so I can live with it if the franchise picks up from here, but this would have helped. I wasn't aware of the reboot two years ago so I know Giggling Ghast posted a video where Kevin explains the plot, but I only became aware this year when Kevin was clarifying that it is about He-Man. My expectations weren't totally shattered because obviously I knew there was some controversy here.)

    2. Different characters. Again, to bring it back to DND, I don't like intra-party conflicts. Generally, they are not handled well, but also, I want a team that works well together and has their focus on what needs to be done. The idea of adventuring with someone that has a giant chip on their shoulder towards THE OTHER PARTY MEMBERS seems like a recipe for disaster to me. Focusing Teela's ire toward her former companions, and keeping it there with no signs of relenting, was a mistake in my opinion. With five short episodes and the decision to emphasize this, there is little room to show Teela in a more heroic light and that's a shame, because her character comes across as unlikable. To my mind, the show has demonstrated that 1. Teela is adventuring to accompany Andra, who in turn is adventuring for the glory of being a hero. 2. Teela is unmoved by seeing her old dead friend and thinks he owes her something, even though he gave his life for her. For me, these are pretty damning, and they are only offset by a few scenes, to be fair; Teela hugs MAA on the boat, Teela shares a moment with Cringer (I think) about missing Adam, Teela reacts to Skeletor/Adam in the last episode.

    Point 1 seems mostly like a technicality to me at this point and I can get over it. Point 2 however is a bigger deal for me. I have hope that this will change in Season 2 and I look forward to it.

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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by DaOldeWolf View Post
    It really is weird that you pick only certain arguments and ignore everything else that has been said. Why not address the rest of what has been said?
    There's no way I'm replying to every single word in a discussion with this many participants, especially when so many of the underlying points are just getting repeated. All I can do is attempt to highlight the ones that I feel either best summarize themes I'm seeing or that most relate to points I made previously.

    I definitely don't like posts (especially my own) that consist of reams and reams of quote streams replying to 5+ different people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    The sidekick can have his or her own show, but let it have been about that character in the first place instead of telling us it's about the hero. No one's complaining about Robin and Titans without Batman. No one complained about Supergirl without Superman. People did complain about the latest Terminator. They were all excited about Linda Hamilton returning. What do they do? Kill John Connor, undo everything, and have a whole new Terminator mythos. Bait & switch.
    That movie was called Terminator. Titans was not called Batman and the Titans, and Supergirl was not called Superman and Supergirl.

    MOTU is not called He-Man. Would I have been upset if He-Man played a greater role this season, no, but making Teelah the main character was a good move imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calemyr View Post
    I do, however, feel that this series is extremely polarized, with people "bombing" both sides of the reviews. This series is in absolutely no way a 1/10, and it is just as decidedly not a 10/10. It's passable, not great. The only thing that makes it worth noting at all is it's ties to a vocal group of people's childhoods, otherwise it'd be just another animated series that simply exists and is forgotten.
    I definitely haven't seen anyone calling it a 10/10, even here. I certainly I'm not, nor even 9.

    And that is ultimately the biggest problem with review-bombing; to counter such a campaign, supporters of the show - or even just folks who simply think it's fine/slightly above average - rating it where they honestly believe it to fall in the 6-8 range, will get averaged out with the folks who have an axe to grind and it will end up being rated very badly (just like it is now.) Nuanced discussion is almost impossible when there are a bunch of 1/10 flying around due to anger and completely ignoring any technical competency of the show in question.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Masters of the Universe: Revelation

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    MOTU is not called He-Man.
    Pedantic Sophistry. Especially in the face of an entire advertising campaign focusing on He Man and a creator who repeatedly said the show would be about He Man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Would I have been upset if He-Man played a greater role this season, no, but making Teelah the main character was a good move imo.
    It could have been, if literally almost every aspect of the execution wasn't somewhere between totally bungled and mediocre.


    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I definitely haven't seen anyone calling it a 10/10, even here. I certainly I'm not, nor even 9.

    And that is ultimately the biggest problem with review-bombing; to counter such a campaign, supporters of the show - or even just folks who simply think it's fine/slightly above average - rating it where they honestly believe it to fall in the 6-8 range, will get averaged out with the folks who have an axe to grind and it will end up being rated very badly (just like it is now.) Nuanced discussion is almost impossible when there are a bunch of 1/10 flying around due to anger and completely ignoring any technical competency of the show in question.
    So now the unhappy fans are just ignorant instead of bad actors looking to ruin the show? In this context, a 2-3 out of 5 with a premise designed to piss someone off easily loses a point along the way. As it should, because it's a valid complaint to be bothered by the bait and switch premise no matter how much you pretend otherwise.
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