I don't get why Bear's Endurance is a suggested "druid healing"

[ciopo]

What the topic says.

I've seen here and there mentioned that Bear's endurance is the staple way for druids to do combat healing.

And well, I don't get it.

I understand that for combat healing, it's probably the best scaling one, assuming the target doesn't have enhancement bonus to constitution from elsewhere, it's an hefty 2HP per HD of the target, sweet!

But, it needs the target to not have a constitution enhancement bonus from elsewhere, AND the HP go away X minutes later, so you need to heal that damage with something else anyway.

Therefore, I don't understand why I've seen so many praises sung to the effectivenes of using Bear's endurance for "healing"

Am I missing something?

[Kurald Galain]

Yep.

Ok, so you're a level 5 fighter with 40 hit points. At that level, you very likely don't have an item that enhances your constitution, because that's pretty expensive for level 5 and really not a priority.

Situation 1:
You have 40/40 hit points. You get hit during combat for 16 damage total. You now have 24/40 hit points.

Situation 2:
I cast Bear's Endurance before combat. You now have 50/50 hit points. You get hit during combat for 16. You now have 34/50 hit points.
Bear's Endurance wears off; you now have 34/40 hit points. Ta dah, I've healed you for 10.

[ciopo]

Uhm, no? 16 damage don't magically (Ah!) Become 6 damage when bear endurance expires, you'll be at 24/40.

I guess it makes sense for low levels where we don't have con item yet, but at that time we also have low HD, a cleric CMW outperforms Bear endurance for a 2nd level slot at this time, curse you wizards for making CMW 3rd level for druids I guess :D

[Troacctid]

The HP does go away after combat, it's true. I disagree that everyone is going to have an enhancement bonus to Con already, though. They're somewhat common, but hardly ubiquitous, especially at low to mid levels.

Anyway, yeah, it's pretty bad as a healing spell. You're better off with one of those unupdated 3.0 fast healing granters, unless you have some other way of making use of the Con bonus—but the folks who do are also the folks who actually will have enhancement bonuses to Con already.

[ciopo]

There are unupdated fast healing granters? The variations of Vigor are in the spell compendium, I'm pretty sure. I admit that I'm not familiar with 3.0 since my gm has a "officially updated material only" policy

So... I wasn't not seeing something obvious, I take heart at that

[Crake]

I've literally never heard of someone saying to use bears endurance as a healing spell, until right now.

[Gnaeus]

It isn’t bears endurance or a fast healing granter. It is bears endurance AND a fast healing granter. The wand of lesser vigor gets used in the 4 minutes between when the 10 round fight ends and the 5 minute spell elapses.

Also, the endo can be used before combat (better than in combat). Or on round 1 before damage is taken. And it has a beneficial side effect (fort saves). If you are a Druid riding a bear or big cat, you can share Bears Endo even if you haven’t BOTH been hurt.

I don’t expect a +con item that fast. It’s almost never the first stat +. It may or may not be the second. A fighter may Str/con. Or he may Str/Dex for AC and initiative and ranged attacks. Or a wizard may int/dex for the same reasons. A part caster like a Paladin or Ranger may Str/Wis or dex/wis or Str/Cha. And you might be using that neck slot for something else, potentially tacking on a surcharge for power stacking or nonstandard location. Especially if you are regularly getting con buffed. Or cast on the Druid pet or a friendly NPC. It’s probably going to take a minute for the bear to get his second stat +.

OTOH as a CoD player I often find myself asking if people want + con items as a way of freeing up spell slots for more fun spells.

[ShurikVch]

There are unupdated fast healing granters?

Magic of Faerûn have Remedy Moderate Wounds (Druid 2/Cleric 3): fast healing 2 for 10 rounds +1 round/2 levels
Masters of the Wild have Regenerate Light/Moderate/Critical Wounds spell line (Druid 1/Cleric 1, Druid 2/Cleric 3, and Druid 5/Cleric 6 respectively): fast healing 1, 2, and 4 - all for 10 rounds + 1 round/level

[Lapak]

I've literally never heard of someone saying to use bears endurance as a healing spell, until right now.

This. I'm sure it was posted in good faith, but this is the kind of thread that feels like a strawman argument to me when I read it as I've never once seen the suggestion it's arguing against.

[ciopo]

Magic of Faerûn have Remedy Moderate Wounds (Druid 2/Cleric 3): fast healing 2 for 10 rounds +1 round/2 levels
Masters of the Wild have Regenerate Light/Moderate/Critical Wounds spell line (Druid 1/Cleric 1, Druid 2/Cleric 3, and Druid 5/Cleric 6 respectively): fast healing 1, 2, and 4 - all for 10 rounds + 1 round/level

Cool, thanks!

This. I'm sure it was posted in good faith, but this is the kind of thread that feels like a strawman argument to me when I read it as I've never once seen the suggestion it's arguing against.

:( I have seen it mentioned at least once, I'm fairly sure it crossed my awareness at least once, but it wasn't today, it's a non sequitur in relation to what I've been doing today. I am not sure if it was "Bear's endurance for healing" exactly, but the general feel of my memory on the topic is that it relates to "commonly suggested druid spells for the 2nd level" with some subtags of "healing related", it was most likely from a druid handbook somewhere

[Crake]

:( I have seen it mentioned at least once, I'm fairly sure it crossed my awareness at least once, but it wasn't today, it's a non sequitur in relation to what I've been doing today. I am not sure if it was "Bear's endurance for healing" exactly, but the general feel of my memory on the topic is that it relates to "commonly suggested druid spells for the 2nd level" with some subtags of "healing related"

Well, it makes it so the fighter can last longer before REQUIRING healing, thus, if a fighter ends a combat within bear's endurance's hp buffer, you saved yourself having to cast a spell to keep them in the battle during a time where every action matters.

Of course, it comes with the risk of sudden barbarian death syndrome, where, if they're low enough, and it gets dispelled, they just instantly die. The name was coined after the barbarians who have it happen to them often with their rage.

[Lilapop]

Magic of Faerûn have Remedy Moderate Wounds (Druid 2/Cleric 3): fast healing 2 for 10 rounds +1 round/2 levels
Masters of the Wild have Regenerate Light/Moderate/Critical Wounds spell line (Druid 1/Cleric 1, Druid 2/Cleric 3, and Druid 5/Cleric 6 respectively): fast healing 1, 2, and 4 - all for 10 rounds + 1 round/level

The Spell Compendium explicitly calls out monstrous regeneration (which was actual regeneration, not just fast healing) as being replaced by greater vigor and remedy moderate wounds as replaced by vigor, and Complete Divine calls out the regenerate family in general (with a list of included spells and mentioning MotW) as replaced by the vigor family.

[Lapak]

:( I have seen it mentioned at least once, I'm fairly sure it crossed my awareness at least once, but it wasn't today, it's a non sequitur in relation to what I've been doing today. I am not sure if it was "Bear's endurance for healing" exactly, but the general feel of my memory on the topic is that it relates to "commonly suggested druid spells for the 2nd level" with some subtags of "healing related", it was most likely from a druid handbook somewhere

No need for the sad face! Like I said, I don't doubt that you're asking out of a sincere doubt about it, it's just the way you phrased the first post comes across as 'this is a known and widespread thing' rather than just 'I saw this suggestion and don't agree with it.' All it means you're probably going to get about an equal amount of answers that amount to 'but that isn't a thing' alongside the rest of the of the discussion when you build the thread that way. No harm done.

[ShurikVch]

The Spell Compendium explicitly calls out monstrous regeneration (which was actual regeneration, not just fast healing) as being replaced by greater vigor

Joke on them: Polymorph is lower level than Monstrous Regeneration, and lasts longer!..

and Complete Divine calls out the regenerate family in general (with a list of included spells and mentioning MotW) as replaced by the vigor family.

Yes, it says so; but it isn't right - there is no Vigor analog for Regenerate Serious Wounds (fast healing 3)

[rrwoods]

FWIW, I remember reading a Druid handbook a while back that had this advice in it, you’re not crazy.

[Zanos]

Can't druids cast all the normal cure spells anyway? A cleric would only be better at healing if they spontaneously convert cures. Lesser Vigor is also explicitly a druid spell.

I don't know why you would use bears endurance to heal. At best it's giving you 2xHD of worse than temporary hit points. Even cure light, as inefficient as it is, will likely do better. At 5th level a druid would heal an average of 9.5 with a cure light for a first level slot while bears only gives 10 hp that disappear. Cure moderate for the same spell slot as a bear's endurance is going to heal 14 on average, and they're real hit points that don't go away. Out of combat, lesser vigor heals 15.

Bear's endurance is really only useful as a pre-combat buff since using actions and spell slots in combat to heal is usually not optimal.

Joke on them: Polymorph is lower level than Monstrous Regeneration, and lasts longer!..

Polymorph doesn't grant regeneration, unless there's some wacky monster out that with regeneration as an extraordinary special attack.

Yes, it says so; but it isn't right - there is no Vigor analog for Regenerate Moderate Wounds (fast healing 3)

That's a very unique and interesting way of reading the rules wrong.

[Kurald Galain]

I don't know why you would use bears endurance to heal. At best it's giving you 2xHD of worse than temporary hit points. Even cure light, as inefficient as it is, will likely do better.

The reason is action economy. 9.5 HP for one combat action is worse than 10 HP for zero combat actions

[Zanos]

The reason is action economy. 9.5 HP for one combat action is worse than 10 HP for zero combat actions

Wow, it's like you're reading my mind! Or maybe just my post:

Bear's endurance is really only useful as a pre-combat buff since using actions and spell slots in combat to heal is usually not optimal.

Although I'd still question even that usage, since blowing a 2nd level slot on a handful of disappearing hp is probably not a good strategy at level 5.

[Kurald Galain]

Wow, it's like you're reading my mind! Or maybe just my post:

Then maybe you shouldn't post "I don't know why you would use bears endurance to heal" and then proceed to explain precisely why one would use Bear's Endurance to heal

[Zanos]

Then maybe you shouldn't post "I don't know why you would use bears endurance to heal" and then proceed to explain precisely why one would use Bear's Endurance to heal

It isn't healing; bear's endurance running out causes you to lose the hit points you gained from the spell. It's even in the spells description:

Hit points gained by a temporary increase in Constitution score are not temporary hit points. They go away when the subject’s Constitution drops back to normal. They are not lost first as temporary hit points are.

It is useful as a niche long-duration buff to prevent people from dying to large hits, provided you have the resources to heal them afterwards so the loss of the hit points does not result in death.

[ciopo]

CMW is 3rd level for druids, I know this by heart because I've grumbled about it at my table a lot :D

[Vaern]

Can't druids cast all the normal cure spells anyway? A cleric would only be better at healing if they spontaneously convert cures. Lesser Vigor is also explicitly a druid spell.

They do get all of the normal cure spells, but their progression is delayed early on with CMW being a 3rd level spell for them rather than 2nd level like it is for clerics (which ultimately causes them to miss out on mass heal). Perhaps bear's endurance was just suggested as a way to fill 2nd level spell slots in the absence of an alternative healing spell.

Whoops, swordsaged.

[Zanos]

CMW is 3rd level for druids, I know this by heart because I've grumbled about it at my table a lot :D

They do get all of the normal cure spells, but their progression is delayed early on with CMW being a 3rd level spell for them rather than 2nd level like it is for clerics. Perhaps bear's endurance was just suggested as a way to fill 2nd level spell slots.

Ah, fair enough. I guess they wanted to make druids worse at healing? At least they still get cure light wounds and lesser vigor as 1st level spells. The only time I've actually played a druid is when my current DM gave me a free gestalt druid level for doing his settings God of Growth a favor. So I've never played a character with more than one druid level.

[ciopo]

iirc, might be wrong with that, but we get the bigger vigor one level earlier than cleric in exchange, I'd have to check on that and I'm AFB, but I'm certain Vigor, the fast healing 2 verison, is druid 3

[Vaern]

Ah, fair enough. I guess they wanted to make druids worse at healing? At least they still get cure light wounds and lesser vigor as 1st level spells. The only time I've actually played a druid is when my current DM gave me a free gestalt druid level for doing his settings God of Growth a favor. So I've never played a character with more than one druid level.

Interesting. I've never considered gestalt character levels as something you could just give somebody one of. That's certainly an interesting idea for a reward apart from the usual loot and XP

iirc, might be wrong with that, but we get the bigger vigor one level earlier than cleric in exchange, I'd have to check on that and I'm AFB, but I'm certain Vigor, the fast healing 2 verison, is druid 3

Looks like all of the Vigor spells are gained at the same levels for cleric and druid, at least in SpC. I'm not sure where else they may be printed, though, so it's possible they just revised them at some point to make them a bit more accessible to clerics.

[ShurikVch]

Polymorph doesn't grant regeneration, unless there's some wacky monster out that with regeneration as an extraordinary special attack.

Lemme check it...
Or, dang it!
The "owl can't see in the dark" problem stretches all the way up to "regular" Polymorph...
(Then why the heck Andy Collins complained about the War Troll polymorph? )

OK, since there is, actually, no "silver lining", - let me spit one more time on the Spell Compendium's "Renamed Spells" section: on top of depriving us of ability to create Disney-esque sentient animated objects (because, you know, Awaken Construct doesn't works on Animated Objects (at least - without Permanency), or really on anything which isn't Humanoid-shaped), it also takes away the only lowish-level spell which grants actual regeneration...

That's a very unique and interesting way of reading the rules wrong.

Where I was wrong? (Other than pointing to the incorrect spell)
It says:

The regeneration-focused spells from Masters of the Wild (regnerate circle, regenerate critical wounds, regenerate light wounds, regenerate moderate wound, regnerate ring, and regenerate serious wounds) appear in this volumn as the vigor spells.

Let's see:

Regenerate	Vigor	effect
Regenerate Light Wounds	Vigor, Lesser	fast healing 1
Regenerate Moderate Wounds	Vigor	fast healing 2
Regenerate Serious Wounds		fast healing 3
Regenerate Critical Wounds	Vigor, Greater	fast healing 4
Regenerate Ring	Vigor, Mass Lesser	fast healing 1 on multiple creatures (one per two levels)
Regenerate Circle	Vigorous Circle	fast healing 3 on multiple creatures (one per two levels)

See the gap in the middle of the table?
IMHO, it means the 3.0 spell is still legal (because it wasn't replaced with anything newer)

[Vaern]

See the gap in the middle of the table?
IMHO, it means the 3.0 spell is still legal (because it wasn't replaced with anything newer)

Maybe. But if it specifically calls out each of these spells and then says that the group is to be replaced with the vigor series then the lack of a spell with the equivalent effect may also indicate that the spell in question has simply been removed, which was more likely the intention.

[Zanos]

(Then why the heck Andy Collins complained about the War Troll polymorph? )

Regeneration isn't a particularly good feature for PCs since the round over round healing isn't that large and being knocked out will still result in your death. The reason to complain about the war troll polymorph is that polymorph grants a lot of other stuff. So what does war troll give? 40ft base movement speed, large size(so reach), 30 base strength, 16 base dexterity, 29 base constitution, 14 natural armor, and the dazing blow special attack, which causes a str based fort save vs daze(so lost turn) with every physical attack. It also makes you a monstrous humanoid, making you immune to some lower level spells, granting darkvision 60, and arguably giving you the war trolls proficiencies. All that for a 4th level spell for 1 min/level? Pretty robust.

The "owl can't see in the dark" problem stretches all the way up to "regular" Polymorph...

Not quite. Your type does change, and low-light vision and darkvision are usually included in type traits. So if you polymorph into something with the animal type, you would get low-light vision.

Where I was wrong? (Other than pointing to the incorrect spell)

The rules text doesn't say there's a 1:1 replacement, only that the vigor spells in RoW take the place of the previous spells. Regenerate serious is even explicitly called out as replaced. I'd struggle to support a reading where a spell that's explicitly called out as being replaced is still legal, even if there's no 1:1 equivalent.

[ShurikVch]

The rules text doesn't say there's a 1:1 replacement, only that the vigor spells in RoW take the place of the previous spells. Regenerate serious is even explicitly called out as replaced. I'd struggle to support a reading where a spell that's explicitly called out as being replaced is still legal, even if there's no 1:1 equivalent.

Actually, it doesn't even says "replaced":

The regeneration-focused spells from Masters of the Wild (regnerate circle, regenerate critical wounds, regenerate light wounds, regenerate moderate wound, regnerate ring, and regenerate serious wounds) appear in this volumn as the vigor spells.

See: "appear"!
But what should we do, if some of replacements doesn't, actually, "appear"?
How about to just use the old spell?

Not quite. Your type does change, and low-light vision and darkvision are usually included in type traits. So if you polymorph into something with the animal type, you would get low-light vision.

I mean - Darkvision is SQ; no SQ - no Darkvision

Regeneration isn't a particularly good feature for PCs since the round over round healing isn't that large and being knocked out will still result in your death. The reason to complain about the war troll polymorph is that polymorph grants a lot of other stuff. So what does war troll give? 40ft base movement speed, large size(so reach), 30 base strength, 16 base dexterity, 29 base constitution, 14 natural armor, and the dazing blow special attack, which causes a str based fort save vs daze(so lost turn) with every physical attack. It also makes you a monstrous humanoid, making you immune to some lower level spells, granting darkvision 60, and arguably giving you the war trolls proficiencies. All that for a 4th level spell for 1 min/level? Pretty robust.

Except Cave Troll have about the same (-2 abilities on average) and more (improved grab, pounce, rake, rend) while being three levels lower - yet nobody is complaining about possibility of polymorphing into Cave Troll...

[ciopo]

Eh, I can see myself slotting a fast healing 3 spell for druid 4, between the normal and greater vigor.

it feels very intentional on their part to not make a fast healing 3 spell, however