I don't get why Bear's Endurance is a suggested "druid healing"

[Tzardok]

Uhm, you do know that Bear's Endurance and Barkskin have only single target? As soon as you touch someone, the held charge is gone.

[Darg]

Uhm, you do know that Bear's Endurance and Barkskin have only single target? As soon as you touch someone, the held charge is gone.

The target line doesn't say "one touched creature" like a spell like charm says "one creature." The hold the charge rules allow you to make a full-round action to touch 6 friends. The touch range rules require touch spells that allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell to touch all targets in the same round that you cast; meaning you can't hold the charge on these spells. This leaves spells like bear's endurance as the only ones that can benefit from the full-round action.

You don't have to change how you play at your table, but our interpretation has only brought more fun for the groups I play with.

[Lilapop]

The target line doesn't say "one touched creature" like a spell like charm says "one creature."

While it doesn't supply a number, it explicitly uses the singular. And IIRC the section that talks about up to six targets refers to spells that allow a specific number of targets higher than one, or that in the text explicitly allow you to make multiple touches.

I'll also point you to mass bear's endurance, which is effectively made obsolete by your houserule and provides a bit of a balancing target.

[Vaern]

The target line doesn't say "one touched creature" like a spell like charm says "one creature." The hold the charge rules allow you to make a full-round action to touch 6 friends. The touch range rules require touch spells that allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell to touch all targets in the same round that you cast; meaning you can't hold the charge on these spells. This leaves spells like bear's endurance as the only ones that can benefit from the full-round action.

You don't have to change how you play at your table, but our interpretation has only brought more fun for the groups I play with.

Bear's Endurance has a target of "creature touched," and the description indicates a singular creature gaining the benefit of the spell. This is as opposed to spells like Water Walk which targets "one touched creature/level," or Teleport which can take up to 1 additional medium creature per 3 caster levels. Bear's Endurance can be held indefinitely and discharges to affect a single creature; Water Walk and Teleport can not be held, but can affect as many targets as the caster can reach (up to the maximum the spell allows) on the round that he finishes casting the spell.
There's no problem playing it differently at the table, of course, but for the sake of RAW arguments it should be regarded as single-target like Cure Light Wounds or Harm, which also target "creature touched." It's also worth noting that by allowing the base spells to affect multiple targets then the mass versions of the same spells become kind of pointless besides the upgrade from touch to short range, which I honestly don't think is worth the difference in spell level in most cases.

Edit: Ninja'd. Found the specific bit that mentions hitting 6 friends with a touch spell. Going to see what my group has to say about that one.

[Vizzerdrix]

You don't have to change how you play at your table, but our interpretation has only brought more fun for the groups I play with.

This is the important part right here. 👍

[Darg]

While it doesn't supply a number, it explicitly uses the singular. And IIRC the section that talks about up to six targets refers to spells that allow a specific number of targets higher than one, or that in the text explicitly allow you to make multiple touches.

That isn't true. If I touch 6 creatures, each creature is a creature touched. It isn't singular at all. "One touched creature" however is because it provides a limit. You are also mistaken on the multi-target touch spells. You can't hold the charge as they have to be discharged in the same round as the casting:

Touch: You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells, such as teleport and water walk, allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch as many willing targets as you can reach as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell.

It's also worth noting that by allowing the base spells to affect multiple targets then the mass versions of the same spells become kind of pointless besides the upgrade from touch to short range, which I honestly don't think is worth the difference in spell level in most cases.

This isn't true at all. The mass versions of spells can hit more than 6 targets and they don't have to be adjacent to you to benefit. Another side benefit is that you can use them to burn an enemy's spell reflection while giving yourself the benefit. Just the fact it doesn't take 2 turns to benefit is enough of a reason itself.

Edit: Ninja'd. Found the specific bit that mentions hitting 6 friends with a touch spell. Going to see what my group has to say about that one.

Hope it works out. The QoL and having more room for fun stuff can't be overstated. We also generally have longer days of activity so it helps with spell selection as the casters don't have to be as stingy with their spells.

This is the important part right here. 👍

Exactly. Joining the community here and looking at online communities as a whole has made me realize that we are a very small niche in this ruling. We came to it as fairly insular groups as we are somewhat isolated.

[Covenant12]

The target line doesn't say "one touched creature" like a spell like charm says "one creature." The hold the charge rules allow you to make a full-round action to touch 6 friends. The touch range rules require touch spells that allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell to touch all targets in the same round that you cast; meaning you can't hold the charge on these spells. This leaves spells like bear's endurance as the only ones that can benefit from the full-round action.

You don't have to change how you play at your table, but our interpretation has only brought more fun for the groups I play with.

PHB 176: "*Some* touch spells, such as teleport and water walk, allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell."
Teleport: Target: "You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures" Water Walk: Targets: "One touched creature/level"

Bear's Endurance: Target: "Creature touched".

I'm sorry, those rules in no way state or imply all touch spells=6 targets. They strongly imply the opposite. Singular touch spells affect one creature. There are metamagic feats that can change that. This is a good way to get put in timeout during every serious rules discussion at your table. This isn't even TO, it is just deceptive. When a touch spell outright indicates multiple targets, here's the rules. If they *don't* touch means one target. Your interpretation is a house rule that ignores the written rules a solid amount.

[Darg]

PHB 176: "*Some* touch spells, such as teleport and water walk, allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell."
Teleport: Target: "You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures" Water Walk: Targets: "One touched creature/level"

Bear's Endurance: Target: "Creature touched".

I'm sorry, those rules in no way state or imply all touch spells=6 targets. They strongly imply the opposite. Singular touch spells affect one creature. There are metamagic feats that can change that. This is a good way to get put in timeout during every serious rules discussion at your table. This isn't even TO, it is just deceptive. When a touch spell outright indicates multiple targets, here's the rules. If they *don't* touch means one target. Your interpretation is a house rule that ignores the written rules a solid amount.

This is in no way deceptive and my tables do use this rule so I highly doubt I'll be put in timeout like a child. First, the targets are only "friends" which cuts out a lot of touch spells. Second, as I mentioned before "creature touched" grammatically is only singular if the situation makes it singular. The rule gives a situation that makes it plural:

Holding the Charge: If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action.

To expand on it, it's the rules on page 141 that make it singular in most situations for in most cases it is discharged with the first thing that gets touched. The full-round action changes that. "Creature touched" does not limit the number of targets. It's only stating what the target is.

On that note, what touch spells are then allowed to make this action? Keep in mind that multi-target touch spells cannot have the charge be held as they are required by the rules on page 175 and 176 to have all targets touched in the same round as the spell is cast. So the example spells such as teleport and water walk are out. It may simply be a defunct action accidentally left in the book as a holdover from 3.0. Or it may be that it was intended that you could hold the charge for multi-target touch spells. It doesn't change the fact that the way it is written prevents that, but it is interesting to think about.

The rules as written tell you it can be done, which is what the others in my groups agree with. As the rules not only allow it but give you instruction on how to do it, the onus is on you to disprove it or I move somewhere it isn't interpreted as such and I try to convince people of the QoL and fun it brings with it.

Sources for being unable to hold the charge for multi-target touch spells:

Touch: You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells, such as teleport and water walk, allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch as many willing targets as you can reach as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell.

Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don’t discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Some touch spells, such as teleport and water walk, allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can’t hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.

[Tzardok]

If you argue that way, you would also accept that the same thing goes for every other single target touch spell (which are most touch spells), including Shock Grasp and Temporal Stasis. Do you do that?

[Darg]

If you argue that way, you would also accept that the same thing goes for every other single target touch spell (which are most touch spells), including Shock Grasp and Temporal Stasis. Do you do that?

Well yeah, but how often do you spend 2 rounds shocking your friends and they willingly let it happen? Friends implies you aren't harming them or doing something they don't approve of. The term "friends" is a limiter that prevents you from doing it offensively. Even in 3.0 where the exact same phrase is used (twice I might add) you wouldn't have a leg to stand on if you tried to use chill touch in that way to make a pseudo Whirlwind Attack.

So no, you aren't going to be doing that. At best it's useful for saving spell slots, increasing teamwork, making some spells with questionable value in taking a slot have a value niche, and increasing the efficacy and efficiency of cure spells when out of combat. Honestly it's been a win win experience with basically 0 downsides as far as I can tell. The caveat is that my groups tend to have longer adventuring days and more combat encounters than I think most people on these boards experience.

[Arkhios]

The only way I can think of that would make Bear's Endurance a "healing spell" for druids is to use it in conjunction with Wild Shape and Rapid Metabolism feat (XPH), and even then it would only heal the druid themself, and not all that much (by +4 extra hp)

[Quentinas]

Well yeah, but how often do you spend 2 rounds shocking your friends and they willingly let it happen? Friends implies you aren't harming them or doing something they don't approve of. The term "friends" is a limiter that prevents you from doing it offensively. Even in 3.0 where the exact same phrase is used (twice I might add) you wouldn't have a leg to stand on if you tried to use chill touch in that way to make a pseudo Whirlwind Attack.

So no, you aren't going to be doing that. At best it's useful for saving spell slots, increasing teamwork, making some spells with questionable value in taking a slot have a value niche, and increasing the efficacy and efficiency of cure spells when out of combat. Honestly it's been a win win experience with basically 0 downsides as far as I can tell. The caveat is that my groups tend to have longer adventuring days and more combat encounters than I think most people on these boards experience.

Never happened an enemy charming/dominate your friends, then let them come near him as they are his "new friends" then casting some nasty touch spell as harm with these rules? Or a spellcasting boss that using his higher level slot buff his personal guard with spells that you don't have at that moment?

[Darg]

Never happened an enemy charming/dominate your friends, then let them come near him as they are his "new friends" then casting some nasty touch spell as harm with these rules? Or a spellcasting boss that using his higher level slot buff his personal guard with spells that you don't have at that moment?

Obvious self destructive orders can't be carried out. So even if you dominate the entire group, after the first touch it is obvious that the order becomes self destructive and they would no longer simply allow you to touch them. It would be a waste of a full action and wouldn't be any different than taking the standard which doesn't require the target to be a friend. The boss would be better off making them sleep and doing despicable things that way.

You can always act to dispel. If the boss is using the higher level spell slot on something that can be removed, that's one less chance at using the high level slot to disable your group. And, how often does the BBEG end up adjacent to 6 of their minions at the start of a fight and can afford to spend 2 rounds doing something that has questionable utility compared to other spells that could hamstring the party instead. A spellcasting boss is fairly vulnerable to counterspelling. If the boss is clairvoyant then I could see it as the party not really having much of a chance anyway. It's not like the mooks start at an equal footing with the adventuring party in the first place. A 5th level fighter, rogue, wizard, and cleric wouldn't fight a mirrored group if you go by CR unless the opposition is given significant handicap. Especially considering the appropriate CR would say that a single 5th level fighter would be appropriate for the encounter.