Lifestyles - breaking them down into requirements

[Zhorn]

What I'm doing is looking at the lifestyle qualities (wretched, squalid, poor, modest, comfortable, wealthy, aristocratic) and trying to tie them mechanically into resting (incentivize players to spend on high lifestyles beyond simple RP reasons). It is also for gauging the quality of rest the party is getting while being self sufficient out in the wilds, or when hiding away for a long rest when deep in some multi-level dungeon.

Trying to determine what would be the benchmarks or requirements to move up from wretched to the higher tiers. Don't mind the names of the tiers too much, the social aspect will be mostly just for in-town-only things.

I'm thinking if wretched is the worst possible conditions, and aristocratic being the best possible conditions, should it be a list of 6 requirements, where wretched is 0/6, and aristocratic is 6/6? that would give us our 7 possible tiers of lifestyle

And from there, what are the factors?
- Shelter
- Bedding
- Clean/hygienic
- Warmth/Fire
- Sufficient Food
- Sufficient Water

Would those do? is there something missing, or something that would be a better requirement than something already listed?

For context, those 6 things I got using the spell text from Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion as a theoretical benchmark for an aristocratic lifestyle.
- It would be sheltered from the outside environment
- Furnished as you choose (assuming beds)
- Clean and fresh
- Warm
- Serve food (9 course banquet for 100 people)
- Assuming water can be included in the banquet (spell text does specify the servants can pour wine, so cheaper liquids is assumed)

[Toadkiller]

Just a suggestion - it is probably easier to just make the better plot hooks be available in more expensive venues. If you want them to go there a carrot (better story rewards) is likely to work better than a tax.

[Zhorn]

Just a suggestion - it is probably easier to just make the better plot hooks be available in more expensive venues. If you want them to go there a carrot (better story rewards) is likely to work better than a tax.

Not the intended goal I'm working on. That will be there, but this is more about a mechanical aspect, such as long resting at a high tier starts your day off with an increase to your max HP for so many hours (I'm running this on foundry, so the calculations for the amount and duration I can automate), but being in squalid/wretched conditions for too long will be detrimental (such as PHB p158 suggests it would be). A poor lifestyle is the 'no change' level.

what the bonuses are isn't really the point. Just focusing on what metrics to use to distinguish the quality of those lifestyles from each other.

[IChosePoorly]

This has been in the back of my head lately, too!

One of your seven qualities might be "Security," with the obvious mechanical impact of "how hard do the Duke's assassins have to work to come kill you," or "does the ranger have to spend an animal friendship to keep your picnic basket safe from those bears."

Another possibility might be that certain downtime activities can't be done below a certain level - hard to scribe scrolls when the roof is leaking.

I'm excited to see what you and other folks come up with!

[Zhorn]

I like the idea of adding security to the list, but I'll be avoiding granularity for each individual item. For each is a simple binary of yes/no, 'have' vs 'don't have'.
Talking with another crowd; what I'm looking at would be better described as ignoring the top two tiers (wealthy and aristocratic), and building out what I'm trying to do for the initial five (wretched, squalid, poor, modest, comfortable).
More accurately what I'm trying to do has nothing to do with the social pillar or flaunting wealth for luxuries, but rather trying to tie an 'effective rest' system into an existing tier structure that already exists in the game that already has a cost structure in the PHB (p158). I'll be trying to incentivize players to go for Wealthy and Aristocratic while in towns where they can, but the rest of them make for a good framework for what I'm trying to extract.
When it comes to paying a lifestyle expense in town, it is assumed each specific tier offers 'X out of however many', with the exact list is somewhat built into the text or taken as a given.

• Wretched has nothing
• Squalid is least has some degree of shelter
• Modest has shelter, food, water, is clean, and with soldiers living in the area a degree of security should be assumed
• etc

So for each tier when paying for a lifestyle in town there would be a specific list, but for living in the wilderness or as a self-sufficiency set up there would be a set order of things but just a 'X out of however many'

I'm trying to avoid things which of themselves don't make your rest better, instead focusing on things that should realistically contribute to your physical well-being. Example, having a servant doesn't automatically improve how effective your recover time is, but food, water and warmth do.

Current thinking is if I were to refine the list as 8 possible requirements, and have the equivalence breakdown be something like:
wretched at 0, squalid 1-2, poor 3-4, modest 5-6, comfortable 7-8
maybe?

so then returning to drawing those requirements from the texts or what would be reasonable assumption, what would those 8 requirements be? Things that contribute to effective resting.
I have my initial draft of 6; 'Shelter', 'Bedding', 'Clean', 'Warmth', 'Food', 'Water'
Adding to that the suggested 'Security'
What could be the last? Having it fit within the scope of the game as it exists, and be a reasonable expectation from lifestyles... 'recreation' maybe? Like how security would help you let your guard down to not be on constant high alert and relax, some recreation activity to mentally unwind with? Gives a tie in for gaming proficiencies, or fits the theme of Song of Rest with bards as things players have control over supplying.

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't mean to rain on your parade, but a hard rule is (for this aspect of the game) nowhere near as useful as guidelines.
Lifestyle expenses does not need hard edges.

There was a reason they didn't include fiddly bits like this.
Playability. (I've been through the "there are a hundred tables" editions. it gets in the way as often as it's an aid).

[Zhorn]

Objections noted, but for the sake of the information gathering exercise could you humour me on this?
I'd rather make an attempt for a learning experience rather than just give up and not look into it at all.
Even if I don't end up executing what I was originally intending, the information could still be repurposed for other things.
One such example I've done in the past is having encounters either thwarted by, or caused by campsite preparations.
Example: a camp fire. If I rolled an encounter for small predators like stirges, they skirt around the campsite and keep distance from the fire as long as it stays fed. Another time I rolled bandits, and the narrative was they found the party because their fire at night was in the open and could be seen from a distance.

[KorvinStarmast]

Objections noted, but for the sake of the information gathering exercise could you humour me on this?

Even if I don't end up executing what I was originally intending, the information could still be repurposed for other things.

You are right, it could be useful; we are never sure what value our posts have for the many readers who drop by.

[Sigreid]

I think rest, sleep, security and food would be a quality not quantity question. Is the food good, or trail rations? Can you really let your guard down or just lessen it? Can you sleep comfortably and not just because you're exhausted and emotionally drained? Etc.

[IChosePoorly]

I like the idea of adding security to the list, but I'll be avoiding granularity for each individual item. For each is a simple binary of yes/no, 'have' vs 'don't have'.

If it were me, I'd set at least some of those requirements up on a trinary - none/sufficient/good. That allows you to define some of the mid/high lifestyles not by "you have everything" but by "you have everything and some of it's nice," and in turn that might let you collapse the number of requirements - maybe a "sufficient" shelter keeps the rain off while a "good" shelter also keeps the temperature comfortable, and that's the difference between a Modest and a Comfortable lifestyle? A trinary also provides opportunities to use proficiencies - sure, everyone's got basic shelter under the tent, but with his Weaver's Tools, we can upgrade to a GOOD rest - vs the binary's "we have a tent and that's enough" - without being too complicatedly granular.

[Zhorn]

The reason I want to avoid granularity on the quality front is I don't want it to be perceived as unfair when I'm imagining one thing and the players are imagining another thing and they don't align, so when the half-orc is chowing down on their rations they imagine as cured sausage meat and honeyed travel bread, and I'm thinking trail mix and rule it as such... A simple binary avoids issues of not communicating levels of detail. Plus I'm trying to stick to things which exist as a RAW function in some capacity or another.
A pound of food is still a pound of food, be it travel rations or a meal at a banquet.

Then when talking about a 'sufficient shelter' versus a 'good shelter', the granularity is just as well served as treating them as two different binaries. A shelter is a shelter and heat is heat. A high class establishment in town might retain an warm ambient temperature, but in the wilds you supplement your tent with a campfire. If the granularity is important enough, then it is important enough for be split into separate binaries.

[Cheesegear]

Would those do? is there something missing, or something that would be a better requirement than something already listed?

e.g; A bunk on a ship
...You're fed and watered from the ship's stores.
...You're sheltered more or less in the hold.
...If the ship has any standards, it's clean.
...You're probably warm with a blanket or two, and you get a hammock.

I'm not going to call that 'Aristocratic' by any measure.

I think a big one is safety/security. Also there are ten other people in the hold, all of whom might gladly kill you and take your stuff.

When you close your eyes, is your stuff going to be where you left it, when you wake up. Are you going to wake up, at all?

The PHB
Wretched. [...] A wretched lifestyle presents abundant dangers. Violence, disease, and hunger follow you wherever you go.

Squalid. [...] You have shelter from the elements, but you live in a desperate and often violent environment, in places rife with disease, hunger, and misfortune.

Poor. You benefit from some legal protections, but you still have to contend with violence, crime, and disease.

...

Aristocratic. You must also contend with the highest levels of deceit and treachery. The wealthier you are, the greater the chance you will be drawn into political intrigue as a pawn or participant.

Safety and security is explicitly brought up by the PHB.

[Toadkiller]

Having slept on the ground in the desert with just a poncho wrapped around me in the midst of my colleagues doing the same thing - I can say it was mighty refreshing. From my own experience I’m not sure I find a long rest being restorative under bad conditions unrealistic. It’s not ideal of course and I do kind of* like the idea of creeping detriment building up over time.

But I think a healthy young athletic person can rough it for quite awhile before it has much impact. A week maybe? A week without a decent meal, being able to wash and a real bed is certainly noticeable!

* I kind of like it. But I mostly agree with the comment above that a bunch of tables and calculations isn’t what I’m looking for in a game. Your mileage may vary of course.

[Zhorn]

e.g; A bunk on a ship
...You're fed and watered from the ship's stores.
...You're sheltered more or less in the hold.
...If the ship has any standards, it's clean.
...You're probably warm with a blanket or two, and you get a hammock.

I'm not going to call that 'Aristocratic' by any measure.

I think a big one is safety/security. Also there are ten other people in the hold, all of whom might gladly kill you and take your stuff.

When you close your eyes, is your stuff going to be where you left it, when you wake up. Are you going to wake up, at all?

For what it's worth, the more recent take on post#5 would put that situation at
Fed (+1)
Watered (+1)
Sheltered (+1)
Clean (+1)
Bedding (+1) <- blanket and hammock are still just both contributing to bedding, and the blanket doesn't provide warmth
= 5 things, landing you in Modest.
If the ship wasn't clean though but everything else were the same then that would be rated at 4 for Poor.

As said in the aforementioned post, we'll just cut Wealthy and Aristocratic from this part of the discussion and focus on the initial five tier of lifestyle from Wretched though Comfortable.

[IChosePoorly]

Maybe your eighth could be "quiet" - no howling wolves or children, no bardic competitions in the tavern below?

[Ettina]

And from there, what are the factors?
- Shelter
- Bedding
- Clean/hygienic
- Warmth/Fire
- Sufficient Food
- Sufficient Water

Mechanical implications of having/not having those:

Warmth/Shelter/Bedding grant the ability to ignore extreme cold. Shelter and bedding can also provide protection against other weather effects, as well as certain creatures (especially biting insects). For example, you might be more likely to contract shivering sickness in Chult if you're sleeping outside of a shelter, because the insects that carry the disease have more opportunities to bite you. Even a blanket can reduce insect bites to a certain extent. This will be heavily situational - in a comfortably warm climate without serious insect-borne diseases, you could sleep outside with very little consequences. Seems realistic - how much it sucks to be homeless is very climate-dependent.

Cleanliness could be represented by having to make saves against diseases in unclean environments. Sewer plague and sight rot are both suggested to be associated with contaminated water, so if the PC doesn't have safe drinking water or the ability to wash filth off their hands before eating, then a chance of contracting either of those diseases seems reasonable.

Lack of food and water causes exhaustion levels that won't go away until you eat a decent meal and drink enough water. Going without water triggers a DC 15 Con save after 1 day, whereas starvation automatically causes exhaustion levels after 3 + Con modifier days without food.

If you pay enough for decent living conditions, you have these necessities automatically. Otherwise, you must actively do something to get yourself what you need, or you don't have it. Eg if you don't have rations and your lifestyle is wretched, you're going to have to beg or steal food, or hunt, all of which will require a skill check. Failure could mean you don't eat, or even worse consequences like getting arrested or hurt.

[Angelalex242]

I think the first thing to understand is that wretched isn't 'inner city slums.' It's camping. What the PCs do when they're nowhere near town in the middle of nowhere. It costs nothing to live like you're mid adventure, after all.

[sandmote]

I think my biggest complaint with the existing metrics is food and water counting as separate items for determining lifestyle. I'd assume you mostly seek both together.

I think the first thing to understand is that wretched isn't 'inner city slums.' It's camping. What the PCs do when they're nowhere near town in the middle of nowhere. It costs nothing to live like you're mid adventure, after all.

Do you not take things with you when you go camping? A tent, food, sleeping bags (if not a bed), items for entertainment. And, if you're doing it for any length of time, you're also spending time gathering firewood, additional food, and other materials that also have some level of financial worth that would also put you in a higher quality lifestyle.

Wretched is explicitly homeless, and slums are explicitly squalid to poor:

Wretched. You live in inhumane conditions. With no place to call home, you shelter wherever you can, sneaking into barns, huddling in old crates, and relying on the good graces of people better off than you.
...
Squalid. You live in a leaky stable, a mud-floored hut just outside town, or a vermin-infested boarding house in the worst part of town.
...
Poor. A poor lifestyle means going without the comforts available in a stable community. Simple food and lodgings, threadbare clothing, and unpredictable conditions result in a sufficient, though probably unpleasant, experience.
...
Modest. A modest lifestyle keeps you out of the slums and ensures that you can maintain your equipment.

e.g; A bunk on a ship
...You're fed and watered from the ship's stores.
...You're sheltered more or less in the hold.
...If the ship has any standards, it's clean.
...You're probably warm with a blanket or two, and you get a hammock.

I don't think blanket + hammock count, and I don't think "ship clean" is usually what we think of as "general clean. For "clean" I'd count it if you're relatively protected from disease; I don't think sailing ships usually do that very well. At least early modern or earlier ones. Actually, "inurned against disease" might be clearer and easier to measure than simply the word "clean." And in a place that hasn't experience the sanitation revolution, that's probably a binary case.

So that's about Moderate levels, Poor if we count food + water as one item. Sailors certainly wouldn't be in wretched conditions though, so I think this works okay.

[Angelalex242]

Sure, but the camping gear of a PC is something they had to spend real gp on. And I've never seen a DM make a PC replace that stuff. You buy it once, and it lasts you from level 1 to 20.

Food? You can hunt that.

As such, camping essentially costs 0 gp.

[sandmote]

Food? You can hunt that.

As such, camping essentially costs 0 gp.

Hunting, gathering, and collecting firewood produce things. Using up the things you've produced is equivalent to spending gp on your lifestyle. If you consume 1 gp of stuff per day because you produce 1 gp worth of stuff per day, you live a modest lifestyle, even if there's no currency involved. This applies equally when doing work in town and while living in a tent in the woods.