OOTS #1236 - The Discussion Thread

[A_S]

Minrah looks translucent in the last panel. Is that just weird lighting, or is something going on there?

[dancrilis]

She simply doesn't believe they won't blow the Gate, and has a pretty big data point to support that belief. She's wrong

Is she?

If it comes down to
a) the snarl destroys the world
b) the gods destroy the world
c) Roy pisses Xykon off enough that if Xykon gets the gate under control (somehow) and the gods concede to his demands one of his demands will be to feed Roy's family in the afterlife through one of the rifts

... well I could see Roy taking number 'c' off the table to keep his mother and brother safe.

Serini has no idea about what the Order would do under enough pressure nor to we (and that is just Roy, other members might have there own 'Xykon is not an option' buttons that might be pushed).

[CountDVB]

Will be interesting to see who’s doing this though we all have our guesses. In Elan’s defense, being luteless is concerning since he needs that for his bardsong, correct?

[Flame of Anor]

Yeah, Serini's going to wipe the floor with the Order. The IFCC using one of their chances might prevent V from being knocked out, but if she realizes what's causing it I'd put good money of her just killing V as soon as it wears off.

I disagree. Having Serini easily defeat the Order would be narratively uninteresting right after having her easily defeat the paladins. Something else is going to happen. Maybe the Order manages to change her mind. Maybe they're in the middle of fighting and then Xykon shows up and they join forces against him.

I only got the zeppelin reference, what are the others?

Death Cab for Cutie, Hootie and the Blowfish. Not sure about the last one.

In Elan’s defense, being luteless is concerning since he needs that for his bardsong, correct?

Depends on where he's put his Perform skill ranks.

[bunsen_h]

The stepwise shading of the tunnel, receding into the distance, looks odd to me. It gives the impression of transitioning through several translucent barriers or windows rather than just getting darker or farther.

Hm. How did Serini know to target Elan's crappy will save? Wizards and Bards have good will save progression, as do clerics. So the front-line fighters should be the clear targets. Sounds like Serini knows more about the order than I thought.

If she knows that Elan pushed the destruct button at Dorukan's dungeon just on a whim, that would point to low WIS.

[Mariele]

The Lute Formerly Known As Lutey.

[danielxcutter]

It's been so long I don't remember. I did get to be part of the crowd when she was recording her Phantom of the Opera video.

Neat! Would it be rude to ask where you are if you show up in the vid?

Assuming that she knows that the Order destroyed Girard's Gate to prevent it from falling into Xykon's hands; I think she is operating on giving no credibility to the Paladins and OotS. The Paladins may say now that it is not an option, but if their oaths required it, she thinks they still might do it.

She doesn't believe that they can take out Xykon. So the only way to stop him to destroy the gate. Destroying the gate will cause the gods to destroy the world. She doesn't want that.

So she bets on some people being miserable during Xykons rule and that it will end sooner or later.

Nor does Xykon even think he is a threat to the multiverse. He just wants to rule the world.

Crotchety old woman? Definitely. Won't listen to sense? Eh, not so much. She simply doesn't believe they won't blow the Gate, and has a pretty big data point to support that belief. She's wrong, but characters are allowed to be wrong. If she let the paladins talk enough (or let's the Order talk enough), I do think she'd be persuaded. She doesn't seem inclined to let them, though, since she's starting off on the "you destroyed your Gate, all other Gates have fallen pretty quickly, and now you're here. HMMMM I WONDER WHY" perspective.

Okay, I get "doesn't trust the Order with two straws and a paper napkin, let alone the Gates" angle, but does she have any idea what Team Evil getting to the Gate would entail? This world being unmade is one of the better outcomes, really. And the thing is, she really should "know" that Team Evil getting the Gate means a) Xykon gets his phlanges on the Snarl and rules the multiverse because not even the gods can go against him, or II. the gods unmake the world so everyone dies anyways. THAT is my issue with her, and yes I know [1] is invalid but that's the assumption she's working on.

[Peelee]

Is she?

Yes.

We know the Order and the Paladins will not destroy the last Gate. They know that will trigger the world's destruction.

Serini does not believe them. She has good reason - after all, the Sapphire Guard, whose sole job was to guard the sapphire, decided to destroy it. So far as she knows, even if they were completely earnest about not wanting or intending to destroy the Gate, she doesn't want to risk a new thing cropping up that could change their minds. After all, they already changed their minds on their own Gate, or it would still be standing.

But yes. They will not destroy the last Gate. She is, therefor, wrong.

Okay, I get "doesn't trust the Order with two straws and a paper napkin, let alone the Gates" angle, but does she have any idea what Team Evil getting to the Gate would entail?

Almost certainly not. Which is why I think she could be convinced if she let them talk. But she's not.

[bunsen_h]

I wonder if Minrah's "Is anyone else seeing this?" is referring to something other than the levitating lute.

[KorvinStarmast]

I mean Elan has been having lots of character development.

A better bard, sure, but not any smarter than he started.

I only got the zeppelin reference, what are the others?

The one I voted for was the riff on Hootie and the Blowfish.

We know the Order and the Paladins will not destroy the last Gate. They know that will trigger the world's destruction.

Serini does not believe them

The problem for the first half of this book, in a nutshell, I'll suggest, until the IFCC chooses to play their next card. Once they do that, that then becomes the problem to solve for the rest of the book as it will somehow be related to the Order finally taking Xykon down.

Something about how in BRitF it was a ways into the book before the Order stumbled over the main plot ... (thinking back to an "aha" moment by Haley)

[Wannes]

The Lute Formerly Known As Lutey.

I think that The Instrument Formerly Known As Lutey works better, as TIFKAL is easier to pronounce than TLFKAL.

[Petrocorus]

I myself look forward to Roy trying to talk Serini into changing her mind.

[SlashDash]

Yeah, Serini's going to wipe the floor with the Order. The IFCC using one of their chances might prevent V from being knocked out, but if she realizes what's causing it I'd put good money of her just killing V as soon as it wears off.

Serini has no intention of killing the PCs. She already said what she's going to do - force them to drink the amnesia potion to remove them from the game.

If anything, I can see it going the other way around. Serini succeeds, but the IFCC calls V and restore their memory since they don't want to eliminate the party, they want the conflict to continue and V will return everyone else's memories somehow.

Okay, I get "doesn't trust the Order with two straws and a paper napkin, let alone the Gates" angle, but does she have any idea what Team Evil getting to the Gate would entail?

Her previous talk with the paladins says that in fact she does.
As she described it, Xykon is evil but he wants to rule the world and not destroy it.
She even says she's thinking on the "let thousands die to save millions" mentality.

If the gods unmake the world, everyone dies. Nobody survives. Sure, there might be new people, but she cares about people who exist now and not people who might happen in the future.

I'll also slightly remind you the point of last book - If the gods unmake the world, Hel gets to torture millions of dwarves forever and become the new matriarch in the new world.
Somehow I don't think that's going to be the happy ending the Oracle promised Elan.

[dancrilis]

Yes.

We know the Order and the Paladins will not destroy the last Gate. They know that will trigger the world's destruction.

Serini does not believe them. She has good reason - after all, the Sapphire Guard, whose sole job was to guard the sapphire, decided to destroy it. So far as she knows, even if they were completely earnest about not wanting or intending to destroy the Gate, she doesn't want to risk a new thing cropping up that could change their minds. After all, they already changed their minds on their own Gate, or it would still be standing.

But yes. They will not destroy the last Gate. She is, therefor, wrong.

They have said they won't destroy the Gate but something could crop up to change their minds (as you indicated she doesn't want to risk).

Roy is on record saying that destroying Dorukan's gate was the correct decision even knowing that it was one of the pillars of reality, he destroyed Girard's gate solely to avoid a fight.

I see no reason to think that if he choices were 'Xykon wins' or 'everyone loses' he wouldn't choose the second option if he thought the first option was really 'everyone loses horribly except for Xykon', unless you can point out a panel where he makes it clear he would let Xykon win if it came down to it?

[KorvinStarmast]

If anything, I can see it going the other way around. Serini succeeds, but the IFCC calls V and restore their memory since they don't want to eliminate the party, they want the conflict to continue and V will return everyone else's memories somehow.

Hmm, as I ponder on this I like how that triggers another V-Be-Gone situation and advances the plot. +1.

[Ekim One-Eye]

Gotta admit, I feel a little lost on Serini's position and motives, esp. in light of the last comment in strip 1189.

[Peelee]

They have said they won't destroy the Gate but something could crop up to change their minds (as you indicated she doesn't want to risk).

We also have audience knowledge that the story will have a happy ending, and as pointed out, the entire Dwarven race getting condemned to Hel is unlikely to fulfill that. So yes, she is wrong. She has good reason to be wrong, but that does not make her less wrong.

[Night Knight]

Elan would still have had a kazoo to use as an instrument if he hadn't been charmed into running off, yes?

[dancrilis]

We also have audience knowledge that the story will have a happy ending, and as pointed out, the entire Dwarven race getting condemned to Hel is unlikely to fulfill that. So yes, she is wrong. She has good reason to be wrong, but that does not make her less wrong.

A happy ending for Elan doesn't mean a happy ending for everyone else.

Roy knows that it would take the gods ~15 minutes after they agree to actually destroy the world and he knows they are currently waiting on the dwarves before they can move on to agree to do that - so after the gate is destroyed he might still have time to fix things, Redcloak might be in a position to deal etc depending on how the story goes.

I personally find it unlikely that Roy (or a member of the order will destroy the gate - although fiend possessing shenanigans might result in such), but if The Giant has it as part of the story fair enough.

[bunsen_h]

We also have audience knowledge that the story will have a happy ending, and as pointed out, the entire Dwarven race getting condemned to Hel is unlikely to fulfill that. So yes, she is wrong. She has good reason to be wrong, but that does not make her less wrong.

I wonder if it will become a choice that Roy will have to make, possibly a "trolley problem": If I do X, the world will be destroyed by the gods (and all the Dwarves go to Hel); if I don't, the Snarl will unmake everything (and contrary to their expectations, the gods won't be able to cash in all of the souls).

[danielxcutter]

Serini has no intention of killing the PCs. She already said what she's going to do - force them to drink the amnesia potion to remove them from the game.

If anything, I can see it going the other way around. Serini succeeds, but the IFCC calls V and restore their memory since they don't want to eliminate the party, they want the conflict to continue and V will return everyone else's memories somehow.

Her previous talk with the paladins says that in fact she does.
As she described it, Xykon is evil but he wants to rule the world and not destroy it.
She even says she's thinking on the "let thousands die to save millions" mentality.

If the gods unmake the world, everyone dies. Nobody survives. Sure, there might be new people, but she cares about people who exist now and not people who might happen in the future.

I'll also slightly remind you the point of last book - If the gods unmake the world, Hel gets to torture millions of dwarves forever and become the new matriarch in the new world.
Somehow I don't think that's going to be the happy ending the Oracle promised Elan.

If hypothetically Xykon got his hands on the Snarl, nobody's going to be able to go against him, not even the gods. Forever. And eventually he might get so bored he destroys it all himself(which Xykon himself said).

[Yirggzmb]

Her previous talk with the paladins says that in fact she does.
As she described it, Xykon is evil but he wants to rule the world and not destroy it.

This is true. However, it's likely she's not aware of Redcloak's plan, which is "turn control of the gate over to my god who wants to use it as a threat to get people to do what I want". The gods are scared enough of this that they will likely opt to pull the plug if Xykon and Redcloak gain control of the gate.

We know this, and the Order knows this, but Sereni likely doesn't and the paladins definitely don't yet. Which the Order informing her of this fact is probably the most likely thing that will change her mind.

[Peelee]

Elan would still have had a kazoo to use as an instrument if he hadn't been charmed into running off, yes?

Bards don't strictly need an instrument. He just needs to fulfill the verbal component, which can be accomplished by singing or chanting.

A happy ending for Elan doesn't mean a happy ending for everyone else.

We also have knowledge of what the author meant to convey when he put that in, which to me still entails that there will be no condemnation of an entire race (not to mention mass genocide if all other people). So, still wrong.

[Doug Lampert]

Words mean nothing to her at this point, only actions. Their past actions condemn them in her eyes. And the fact the other gates are lost means she's basically operating on the base assumption "they can't beat Xykon". She'd probably like that, a little vengence if nothing else, but she's resigned to him defeating all challengers and is making sure they don't blow up the planet in the process. We suspect she's wrong, and we're confident she doesn't know the stakes of his victory, but from those base assumptions she's acting sensibly.

Also, if the Order leaps out of concealment to attack X, then when they lose, which is the overwhelming favorite for outcomes based on the levels and power, they give X the knowledge of how the gate is hidden.

[chy03001]

This is some Elan gold right here :-D

[TuringTest]

I was wondering how they were going to move on from the situation they were in. I certainly didn't expect this, though

I'm also glad Serini has made her move and we get some action.

It's a bit disappointing though that all the strips dedicated to explain how the portal trap works and setting it as the perfect ambush, with the order waiting for it to go off, seem to have been wasted without an obvious pay off.

The Order has been in the cave since December, and one has to wonder what all these intermediate strips are good for, if they're finally rushing into the cave anyway. It's very little in-time comic time, and I'm sure the compilation book will read with good rhythm; but waiting for it to refresh online is paaaainful, at least when some build-up doesn't lead anywhere, not directly

[gatemansgc]

Swirly eyes are not for audience only. The OOTS members have likely seen them and know he got charmed or whatever.


Why does Serini want to avoid a fight between Team Evil and the OOTS?
The best explanation I see is that if Team Evil defeats the OOTS, they will know what they were doing wrong.

ooh yeah true! their spot checks aren't as bad as they used to be. they couldn't have all missed that!

[Yendor]

The main problem with Serini's line of thought is that Xykon is never going to get control of the Snarl, because that's not what the Ritual does. It gives control to the Dark One. And if Thor's gambit fails and they can't get Redcloak to cooperate, the gods will most likely yank the plug on the world before the Ritual can be completed.

Other than that, the fact the Order and Sapphire Guard have failed to stop Xykon thus far and destroyed three Gates in the process is plenty of reason for Serini not to trust them as far as she could throw them.

[Psyren]

Magic items have been shown to have their own auras, independent from who's using them.

To be fair, we don't know that.

I never said we did know that - pretty sure my exact words were "I'm inclined to believe."

It's a bit disappointing though that all the strips dedicated to explain how the portal trap works and setting it as the perfect ambush, with the order waiting for it to go off, seem to have been wasted without an obvious pay off.

The Portal Trap's purpose was to make the Order think they had an advantage, so they would stand around in one place Readying over and over to then be caught by Serini, instead of doing literally anything else with that prep time. So even if Serini's actions ruined their chances of getting the drop on Team Evil, I wouldn't agree that the trap did nothing.

[EmperorSarda]

Neat! Would it be rude to ask where you are if you show up in the vid?

I'm the guy at 2:30 with the glasses and top hat. I don't think I'm visible at other parts of the video.

but does she have any idea what Team Evil getting to the Gate would entail?

No. Because if she did she'd know that Redcloak is the true threat, not Xykon. As far as Xykon knows, the gate ritual only allows him to control this snarl on this plane of existence. We have no reason to assume Serini believes any different.

So in her mind it is risk the world being destroyed or let Xykon rule the world until someone figures out how to knock him out.