OOTS #1236 - The Discussion Thread

[danielxcutter]

The main problem with Serini's line of thought is that Xykon is never going to get control of the Snarl, because that's not what the Ritual does. It gives control to the Dark One. And if Thor's gambit fails and they can't get Redcloak to cooperate, the gods will most likely yank the plug on the world before the Ritual can be completed.

Other than that, the fact the Order and Sapphire Guard have failed to stop Xykon thus far and destroyed three Gates in the process is plenty of reason for Serini not to trust them as far as she could throw them.

That's not even my problem with her. She doesn't know about TDO.

My problem is that unless she skipped all the lore parts, she has to know the Snarl is capable of slaughtering gods effortlessly, and that the gods are willing to pull the plug on the world rather than risk that even without that knowledge.

[Fish]

I only got the zeppelin reference, what are the others?

Deathcab for Cutie
Kings of Leon
Hootie and the Blowfish

[danielxcutter]

I'm the guy at 2:30 with the glasses and top hat. I don't think I'm visible at other parts of the video.

Neat, I'm going to go check that now.

No. Because if she did she'd know that Redcloak is the true threat, not Xykon. As far as Xykon knows, the gate ritual only allows him to control this snarl on this plane of existence. We have no reason to assume Serini believes any different.

So in her mind it is risk the world being destroyed or let Xykon rule the world until someone figures out how to knock him out.

I meant, "does she know what the Snarl hypothetically falling into his hands even mean". Because there's "generic doomsday device" and there's "literally able to destroy the entire multiverse effortlessly".

I'm betting that she didn't listen to the casters when they talked about it. Poor communication probably was a part in their falling-out after all.

[CountDVB]

They have said they won't destroy the Gate but something could crop up to change their minds (as you indicated she doesn't want to risk).

Roy is on record saying that destroying Dorukan's gate was the correct decision even knowing that it was one of the pillars of reality, he destroyed Girard's gate solely to avoid a fight.

I see no reason to think that if he choices were 'Xykon wins' or 'everyone loses' he wouldn't choose the second option if he thought the first option was really 'everyone loses horribly except for Xykon', unless you can point out a panel where he makes it clear he would let Xykon win if it came down to it?

I mean, Dorukan put a self-destruct rune on his Gate so there probably was a situation where he considered its destruction to be necessary, especially given all the magical protections he put on there. And we know the Order of the Scribble fought against people looking to try and harness the power of the Gates.

[danielxcutter]

I mean, Dorukan put a self-destruct rune on his Gate so there probably was a situation where he considered its destruction to be necessary, especially given all the magical protections he put on there. And we know the Order of the Scribble fought against people looking to try and harness the power of the Gates.

Another reason I entertain the "Serini didn't listen to any of the lore parts" theory, though to be fair her Gate is the last.

[hroþila]

Serini could be perfectly well versed in the lore and still disagree with Dorukan. The stance that the destruction of ANY gate is reckless regardless of how many still stand has merit.

[KorvinStarmast]

The stance that the destruction of ANY gate is reckless regardless of how many still stand has merit.

It does, and she's emotionally invested thanks to one of her adventuring comrades having sacrificed his life in the process of the snarl being contained before the gates and their defenses were completed.

[Jasdoif]

My problem is that unless she skipped all the lore parts, she has to know the Snarl is capable of slaughtering gods effortlessly, and that the gods are willing to pull the plug on the world rather than risk that even without that knowledge.

Right. In Serini's eyes, the worst-case scenario of Xykon holding the Gate is on the same level as the best-case scenario of preventing Xykon from holding the Gate. She probably expects she'll have the option of destroying the Gate herself if that starts looking like an improvement, too.

[danielxcutter]

It does, and she's emotionally invested thanks to one of her adventuring comrades having sacrificed his life in the process of the snarl being contained before the gates and their defenses were completed.

...Okay yeah that'd explain a lot.

I still think she's wrong even with the knowledge she probably knows, but I can still see why then.

Right. In Serini's eyes, the worst-case scenario of Xykon holding the Gate is on the same level as the best-case scenario of preventing Xykon from holding the Gate. She probably expects she'll have the option of destroying the Gate herself if that starts looking like an improvement, too.

...Are you being sarcastic or not?

[Psyren]

I'm interested in whether any of the Scribble looked inside the rift like Blackwing did, and if so, what they saw. Is the planet-in-the-planet thing new? The gods don't seem to know about it. Did they? Does she?

[Peelee]

I'm the guy at 2:30 with the glasses and top hat. I don't think I'm visible at other parts of the video.

That's pretty awesome! I got to be in a Weird Al show once, danced onstage and everything. No music video, though.

[Jasdoif]

Right. In Serini's eyes, the worst-case scenario of Xykon holding the Gate is on the same level as the best-case scenario of preventing Xykon from holding the Gate. She probably expects she'll have the option of destroying the Gate herself if that starts looking like an improvement, too.

...Are you being sarcastic or not?

Works both ways, doesn't it? She has an unduly dismissive view of any attempt to defeat Xykon himself, which she rationally followed to its logical conclusion.

[Riftwolf]

Swirly eyes are not for audience only. The OOTS members have likely seen them and know he got charmed or whatever.


Why does Serini want to avoid a fight between Team Evil and the OOTS?
The best explanation I see is that if Team Evil defeats the OOTS, they will know what they were doing wrong.

My guess is she doesn't care if the Order fights Xykon, whether they win or lose. What Serini cares about is that the Order don't give away the teleporter trick to Team Evil. She's perfectly happy to let Xykon et al burble around forever, but the Orders plan will inadvertently tip Xykon off about how the dungeons work.

[dancrilis]

We also have knowledge of what the author meant to convey when he put that in, which to me still entails that there will be no condemnation of an entire race (not to mention mass genocide if all other people). So, still wrong.

But the story could go:
1. Order destroys the gate.
2. World is saved by order talking to Redcloak.
3. Happy ending all around.

And step 1 might occur to help with step 2 if the Giant so chooses, in which case she would be right.

[danielxcutter]

Works both ways, doesn't it? She has an unduly dismissive view of any attempt to defeat Xykon himself, which she rationally followed to its logical conclusion.

That sounds about right, yeah.

Not sure what "In Serini's eyes, the worst-case scenario of Xykon holding the Gate is on the same level as the best-case scenario of preventing Xykon from holding the Gate" means though?

[Peelee]

But the story could go:
1. Order destroys the gate.
2. World is saved by order talking to Redcloak.
3. Happy ending all around.

And step 1 might occur to help with step 2 if the Giant so chooses, in which case she would be right.

I could also find a million dollars underneath my pillow when I get home tonight.

[PontificatusRex]

All set up to ambush the Epic Sorcerer, only to be ambushed by the Epic Rogue...

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm interested in whether any of the Scribble looked inside the rift like Blackwing did, and if so, what they saw.

Kraagor seems to have gotten a very close look

That's pretty awesome! I got to be in a Weird Al show once, danced onstage and everything. No music video, though.

Way too cool.

She's perfectly happy to let Xykon et al burble around forever, but the Order's plan will inadvertently tip Xykon off about how the dungeons work.

Hence her motivation to act. I like how you fit those together.
("The Order are well meaning bumblers" is a theme since about strip 0001; yeah, she's read the back catalogue )

[TuringTest]

The Portal Trap's purpose was to make the Order think they had an advantage, so they would stand around in one place Readying over and over to then be caught by Serini, instead of doing literally anything else with that prep time. So even if Serini's actions ruined their chances of getting the drop on Team Evil, I wouldn't agree that the trap did nothing.

True, I hand't thought of that.

But still, a similar dramatic effect could have been had if the Order decided to explore the tunnel right away, and Serini ambushed them before they have any chance to find out what lies beyond.

I still have hope that the carefully crafted explanation over several strips of how the trap's workings will be a proper Checkhov's gun and it will pay out in the end; albeit in a totally unexpected way, very different from Haley's direct ambush plan (we all know that a plan that is spelled out never works as described).

[Jasdoif]

Not sure what "In Serini's eyes, the worst-case scenario of Xykon holding the Gate is on the same level as the best-case scenario of preventing Xykon from holding the Gate" means though?

Like you said, if Xykon somehow managed to control the Snarl, the gods would destroy the world and everyone on it to mitigate the damage the Snarl could cause to them while they had the chance....Exactly like they would if Lien/O-Chul/etc. destroyed the last Gate to keep Xykon from getting his phalanges on it; which Serini believes is the only way they could stop Xykon from getting his phalanges on it.

If Xykon's unable to control the Snarl, and instead uses the threat of destroying the Gate to secure his world domination, or some other unforeseen setup where Xykon somehow benefits from the Gate without the Snarl...then it'll only last until some group comes along and actually takes Xykon down, lots of lives being saved/freed in the process; or until said group or Xykon does destroy the Gate....Exactly like Serini believes Lien/O-Chul/etc. would have to in order to stop Xykon.


Serini does not see a scenario where giving Lien/O-Chul/etc. their chance to stop Xykon could ever work out better than letting Xykon have the Gate. A tie is the best she could hope for, and the worse outcomes are too bad for her to risk.

[danielxcutter]

Like you said, if Xykon somehow managed to control the Snarl, the gods would destroy the world and everyone on it to mitigate the damage the Snarl could cause to them while they had the chance....Exactly like they would if Lien/O-Chul/etc. destroyed the last Gate to keep Xykon from getting his phalanges on it; which Serini believes is the only way they could stop Xykon from getting his phalanges on it.

If Xykon's unable to control the Snarl, and instead uses the threat of destroying the Gate to secure his world domination, or some other unforeseen setup where Xykon somehow benefits from the Gate without the Snarl...then it'll only last until some group comes along and actually takes Xykon down, lots of lives being saved/freed in the process; or until said group or Xykon does destroy the Gate....Exactly like Serini believes Lien/O-Chul/etc. would have to in order to stop Xykon.


Serini does not see a scenario where giving Lien/O-Chul/etc. their chance to stop Xykon could ever work out better than letting Xykon have the Gate. A tie is the best she could hope for, and the worse outcomes are too bad for her to risk.

Hmm... does she even consider or know that the gods would destroy the world? She seems to assume that Xykon getting his phalanges on the Snarl is inevitable.

[Peelee]

Hmm... does she even consider or know that the gods would destroy the world?

Why would she?

[danielxcutter]

Why would she?

Shojo said that the Scribblers were concerned that the gods might take matters into their own hands so... yeah, sounds a lot like they knew.

[Quizatzhaderac]

It's a bit disappointing though that all the strips dedicated to explain how the portal trap works and setting it as the perfect ambush, with the order waiting for it to go off, seem to have been wasted without an obvious pay off.

But it did pay off with an excellent ambush.

You're just being picky about who ambushes whom :P

[Fyraltari]

Shojo said that the Scribblers were concerned that the gods might take matters into their own hands so... yeah, sounds a lot like they knew.

Shojo said the Scribblers "agreed it was best not to let things deteriorate to the point where the gods felt they had no choice but to destroy the world to rebuild the prison."

It soinds more like a theoretical concern to me. Especially if they didn't know the gods have already done it a bazillion times.

It's also possible Serini was in the minority and didn't think the gods would actually go through with it.

Edit: Hell, it's possible that "not only have they done it before, but they were voting on doing it early last week!" would be the argument that gets her to ally with the Order against Xykon.

[arimareiji]

Shojo said that the Scribblers were concerned that the gods might take matters into their own hands so... yeah, sounds a lot like they knew.

If you mean this comic, they were concerned that if the rifts deteriorated the gods might destroy the world. That's the reason she mistakenly thinks it would be better to let Xykon get one of the gates containing a rift, than blow it up.

At least at this time, we have no reason to think she knows the gods will destroy the world to keep Redcloak from getting his hands on a gate.

[tanonev]

So...the Order has 3 casters capable of casting Dispel Magic AND Break Enchantment, they've prepared spells knowing they're up against multiple spellcasters, they know/strongly suspect Elan's been charmed in some way, and they don't bother trying to dispel the effect...why?

[Ionathus]

Specific things I love about this strip:

1. Elan being savvy enough to not immediately chase after his floating lute. I was legitimately concerned in the first few panels, and then Elan himself acknowledged how silly that would be!

2. The mental image of Serini (or Orange Voice) trying to lure Elan away with the floating lute: when he stops to acknowledge how dumb that would be, they sigh deeply and think to themselves "dangit, he's not as comically stupid as I was promised" and then they have to burn a spell/charge/scroll/SLA on charming him

Generic things I love about this strip: everything else.

ninja:

So...the Order has 3 casters capable of casting Dispel Magic AND Break Enchantment, they've prepared spells knowing they're up against multiple spellcasters, they know/strongly suspect Elan's been charmed in some way, and they don't bother trying to dispel the effect...why?

I'd imagine it has something to do with Roy's comment about not standing around to get picked off one by one. Somebody's made the first move against them and is trying to get them individually: applying the force of their entire party in a blitz move could force that assailant to revise their strategy. And spending a spellslot to dispel the charm might not be worth it, if it's a low-level suggestion (which the dialogue seems to suggest) that might wear off in a minute.

And of course, Durkon is back with the group, which apparently means they have to go back to just rushing headfirst into every fight.

[Fyraltari]

So...the Order has 3 casters capable of casting Dispel Magic AND Break Enchantment, they've prepared spells knowing they're up against multiple spellcasters, they know/strongly suspect Elan's been charmed in some way, and they don't bother trying to dispel the effect...why?

He just ran out of range/line of sight?

[Mariele]

What we learned from Shojo (who learned from his father, who learned from Soon), is that in order to fix the rifts, the gods would need to unmake the world and start over again, and that if things deteriorated enough, they would feel that they had no choice to. So yes, I think she does know.

Edit: Dang, ninja'd twice.