OOTS #1236 - The Discussion Thread

[mjasghar]

Uh, that was the entire concern of the Scribblers besides the Snarl itself? Also, if Soon knew that the Snarl could kill gods then I have no idea why any of the others wouldn’t.

I meant if you think it’s only the 2nd world you don’t realise the gods have a ready made plan to ditch any worlds before the Snarl escapes.

[danielxcutter]

Hmm...

I wonder if she'd even listen to "the gods are going to destroy the world themselves if things don't work out". I think Durkon would be more likely to start off with it since Redcloak didn't listen, but I have doubts about whether Serini will consider that at all.

[Fyraltari]

Hmm...

I wonder if she'd even listen to "the gods are going to destroy the world themselves if things don't work out". I think Durkon would be more likely to start off with it since Redcloak didn't listen, but I have doubts about whether Serini will consider that at all.

Why not?90

[danielxcutter]

Why not?90

I dunno, I just don't think reason is something she's willing to listen to at the moment.

[dancrilis]

No, Roy destroyed it because they had no way to keep it out of Tarquin's hands once they left the continent, and unlike Nale, Tarquin would see right through the double-bluff. Tarquin has an army. It would be suicide to try and fight him.

This is how Serini sees the current situation - if she is correct then The Order has exactly one method of keeping Gates out of Xykon's hands and she disagreed when the paladins decided to use that method and she presumedly disagreed with Roy's assessment of Dorukan's gate's destruction and with Roy's decision at Girard's gate.

[Tokeull]

We also have audience knowledge that the story will have a happy ending, and as pointed out, the entire Dwarven race getting condemned to Hel is unlikely to fulfill that. So yes, she is wrong. She has good reason to be wrong, but that does not make her less wrong.

We have already have a "happy ending" for Elan, that the ocacle promised, in #887, called Happy Ending.

[locksmith of lo]

i just noticed, someone brought up kraagor earlier, but we do not actually see kraagor die, nor see his body. has there been any discussion as to whether he is just lost and presumed dead?

[Fyraltari]

i just noticed, someone brought up kraagor earlier, but we do not actually see kraagor die, nor see his body. has there been any discussion as to whether he is just lost and presumed dead?

Girard, who was there, says he died. We don't know how exactly as he was seemignly killed by the Rift-sealing spell rather than the Snarl. Maybe they actually saw him be crushed to bits as reality rearranged itself around him or maybe he was sucked inside the Rift with the Snarl he was apparently fighting at the time (and so is unlikely to let him be).

[bificommander]

I can't help but notice that Vaarsuvius isn't talking or shown running after Elan in the last 6 panels. Nor is V casting Dispell Magic, Break enchantment, True Seeing, See Invisibility, or anything else that seems appropriate here. (Neither is Durkon, but he never has the right spells after all). Just a coincidence, or did the IFCC just call in another marker?

[Peelee]

We have already have a "happy ending" for Elan, that the ocacle promised, in #887, called Happy Ending.

No we haven't, since the author said the point of that project was to reassure the readers that no matter how dark the story got, it would all turn out OK in the end.

Also the little, almost inconsequential fact that, as that was comic #887 and we are currently on #1236, that was not an ending, happy or otherwise.

[KorvinStarmast]

i just noticed, someone brought up kraagor earlier, but we do not actually see kraagor die, nor see his body. has there been any discussion as to whether he is just lost and presumed dead?

Why do you think that Serini is so sad? Why do you think Girard is so angry at Soon?
I have offered a hope that Kraagor was taken to the world in the snarl, and is sipping ice cold daquaris on a beach, but it is not helpful that Laurin detected no fish when she psi'd through the portal ... so I'm not sure what he'd eat.

If you have reason to think Kraagor is not dead, what is it?

[Fyraltari]

it is not helpful that Laurin detected no fish when she psi'd through the portal ... so I'm not sure what he'd eat.

People keep using that as evidence of the world-within-the-world being barren of life, I keep asking what the range of Laurin's detection spell is and I keep not getting a response. Could she really have scanned the entire planet?

[JonahFalcon]

Bubs: "My chocolates! Come back, chocolates! I didn't mean what I said!"

[Blue Dragon]

And so it begins.

[TuringTest]

I can't help but notice that Vaarsuvius isn't talking or shown running after Elan in the last 6 panels. Nor is V casting Dispell Magic, Break enchantment, True Seeing, See Invisibility, or anything else that seems appropriate here. (Neither is Durkon, but he never has the right spells after all). Just a coincidence, or did the IFCC just call in another marker?

If that was going to happen, I'm pretty sure we would see it on panel, in a properly dramatic setup. It's too important an event for being handled off-panel.

It's more likely that Elan was on-panel, so the action centers around him. Other characters appear as soon as they have something to add to the action.

It is suspicious that Minra appears in the last panel and V does not. It could be merely to sign that the whole Order is on the move. Or it could happen that V has been deliberately left off-panel, and V's part of the action is the first thing we'll see in the next strip, being something that doesn't fit in the background of a single panel.

[JonahFalcon]

No one caught the Homestar Runner reference?

[Rrmcklin]

No we haven't, since the author said the point of that project was to reassure the readers that no matter how dark the story got, it would all turn out OK in the end.

Also the little, almost inconsequential fact that, as that was comic #887 and we are currently on #1236, that was not an ending, happy or otherwise.

Since when has the fact that the story isn't interested in subverting the prophecies and literal Word of God gotten in the way of people insisting the story is going to subvert the prophecies?

[TRH]

...mmm. Could just be the panel being too crowded and so V was left out for art reasons... but I could also totally see this being the IFCC expending their second, probably shorter, lien on V's soul/body. They're the most powerful and flexible member of the party, and a lot of Serini's tricks would be easy for V to counter.

Seems really premature to blow on this. They only have two of those left, and the party's not even close to finding the real gate as far as we know, so it doesn't help them ensure this gate's destruction, which seems to be where they're going with all this.

And I should say that I expect their use of the second long debt to invert the previous situation, by having the three directors (or at least one of them) come to the prime material for the duration of the timeshare, since all they specified about how collection works is that their soul spends time with the directors, which isn't necessarily on their home turf. Combine that with them saying they can only be on the Prime Material to make a deal, and, well, that loophole demands exploitation. So that's gonna be their big surprise gambit there, not repeating what they did before.

[Quizatzhaderac]

It's a super tiny detail, but I love how when Elan says "On the other hand," he literally swaps hands.

It would never have occurred to me for someone to use that expression and not make a hand gesture.

I mean extends dominate hand, I guess it's an established enough expression that people will understand it sans gesture, but on the other hand extends off hand, it's not hard to vaguely wave your hands about.

i just noticed, someone brought up kraagor earlier, but we do not actually see kraagor die, nor see his body. has there been any discussion as to whether he is just lost and presumed dead?

Well, he did die by backstory. That, combined with Rich's seeming dislike for diminishing the impact of mortality makes me think he's really dead.

People keep using that as evidence of the world-within-the-world being barren of life, I keep asking what the range of Laurin's detection spell is and I keep not getting a response. Could she really have scanned the entire planet?

No, but I think we should assume she scanned a typical section of the planet.

[Fyraltari]

No, but I think we should assume she scanned a typical section of the planet.

That assumes a typical section of the planet has the Snarl in it. It's not clear how big it is supposed to be, but if it's about the size of non-shrinked Thor, it's entirely possible that Laurin didn't detect anything because all the fish in the area GTFO of there when they realized the Snarl was coming their way.

It's the same logic as why the apparition of the monster in horror stories is often heralded by the complete abscence of the expected wildlife of the area.

[TRH]

It would never have occurred to me for someone to use that expression and not make a hand gesture.

I mean extends dominate hand, I guess it's an established enough expression that people will understand it sans gesture, but on the other hand extends off hand, it's not hard to vaguely wave your hands about.

On a third hand, it's so common that "on a third hand" has also become a common idiom, and so you kind of have to abandon the metaphor somewhere. So why not dispense with it right away?

[bunsen_h]

That assumes a typical section of the planet has the Snarl in it. It's not clear how big it is supposed to be, but if it's about the size of non-shrinked Thor, it's entirely possible that Laurin didn't detect anything because all the fish in the area GTFO of there when they realized the Snarl was coming their way.

It's the same logic as why the apparition of the monster in horror stories is often heralded by the complete abscence of the expected wildlife of the area.

Do we have any idea of what minimum level of consciousness she'd be able to detect? That is, I'd expect some level of awareness and cognitive ability to be required in order to be smart enough to clear out, because the Snarl was on its way. Is that threshold below what Laurin can detect? In a horror story, I'd expect the wildlife to be hiding rather than actually departing.

[dancrilis]

People keep using that as evidence of the world-within-the-world being barren of life, I keep asking what the range of Laurin's detection spell is and I keep not getting a response. Could she really have scanned the entire planet?

If she used hypercognition she could just know the correct answer based on very little information.

[Fyraltari]

I'd expect some level of awareness and cognitive ability to be required in order to be smart enough to clear out, because the Snarl was on its way.

If the Snarl is as aggressive as we've been lead to believe it'd be the single greatest evolutionary pressure on that planet. In other words, everything not very good at avoiding it died without progeny centuries ago.

If she used hypercognition she could just know the correct answer based on very little information.

Since her conclusion was immediately proven wrong, I'm not sure where you are going with this.

[dancrilis]

Since her conclusion was immediately proven wrong, I'm not sure where you are going with this.

She said it wasn't the elemental plane of water and that she detected no fish - to our knowledge it isn't that elemental plane of water and she was not attacked by a fish.

[bunsen_h]

If the Snarl is as aggressive as we've been lead to believe it'd be the single greatest evolutionary pressure on that planet. In other words, everything not very good at avoiding it died without progeny centuries ago.

Sure, but we're talking ecosystem. Large mobile critters feed on smaller, less-mobile critters, and so on down to tiny critters that eat single-celled plants. There's a cutoff point of critters simply not being mobile enough to get out of the way of the Snarl. And generally, brain size and cognitive ability also decrease as one goes down that chain. Where's the cutoff point of "aware enough for Laurin to detect" relative to the cutoff point of "aware enough and mobile enough to leave the area that the Snarl is approaching"?

I'll grant that ecosystems often don't make a lot of sense in D&D worlds. Some of those monsters don't plausibly have access to enough prey (or other specialized food) to survive on. To quote Sam Gamgee, "What do they live on when they can't get hobbit?"

[Kazyan]

I get that Serini is clever, but bleh, it's not fun that mind control is the convenient plot device once again.

[KorvinStarmast]

She said it wasn't the elemental plane of water and that she detected no fish - to our knowledge it isn't that elemental plane of water and she was not attacked by a fish.

Hmm, the Snarl's tentacle/energy thing is a little bit Lovecraftian (and fishy/squiddy)if you really stretch it (tentacles being one of Lovecraft's obsessions).

Sure, but we're talking ecosystem. Large mobile critters feed on smaller, less-mobile critters, and so on down to tiny critters that eat single-celled plants. There's a cutoff point of critters simply not being mobile enough to get out of the way of the Snarl. And generally, brain size and cognitive ability also decrease as one goes down that chain. Where's the cutoff point of "aware enough for Laurin to detect" relative to the cutoff point of "aware enough and mobile enough to leave the area that the Snarl is approaching"?

A more articulate thought than I put into my post. I like it. Thank you.

I get that Serini is clever, but bleh, it's not fun that mind control is the convenient plot device once again.

Yeah, mind control of PCs - use sparingly or the players get really annoyed.

Spoiler: DMing anecdote

Show

Had one of my players miss a hold person save so he just stood up and said "I'll go take a smoke break, someone come and get me when I'm able to play again" and off he went. (THis was back when a lot of us smoked cigarettes casually during social occasions ... but he also smoked other stuff when he had it )

[Peelee]

Since her conclusion was immediately proven wrong, I'm not sure where you are going with this.

It was? The "no life" conclusion?

[Skull the Troll]

People keep using that as evidence of the world-within-the-world being barren of life, I keep asking what the range of Laurin's detection spell is and I keep not getting a response. Could she really have scanned the entire planet?

Indeed, unless it has a range of several miles, once you're 20 miles off the coastal shelf there's almost no life at the surface of our ocean. Hers could be the same. That said, it doesn't seem like the snarl is known for leaving things alive. There's really just not enough data to make any reasonable predictions about what's going on yet that I can tell.