OOTS #1236 - The Discussion Thread

[Ionathus]

I get that Serini is clever, but bleh, it's not fun that mind control is the convenient plot device once again.

I don't really mind this use of it. There's a difference between "mind control drives a major plot point and forces characters to do uncharacteristic things" and "mind control serves the same purpose as a shepherd's hook."

Basically, Elan could just as easily have been yoinked offstage by a Telekinesis spell or similar. The point is that somebody's attacking and they've managed to separate Elan, so now the rest of The Order has to chase after him.

It's a different ballgame than, say, "Elan has been brainwashed into serving Xykon and now we have to do a whole weird mind control arc" or whatever.

[danielxcutter]

I don't really mind this use of it. There's a difference between "mind control drives a major plot point and forces characters to do uncharacteristic things" and "mind control serves the same purpose as a shepherd's hook."

Basically, Elan could just as easily have been yoinked offstage by a Telekinesis spell or similar. The point is that somebody's attacking and they've managed to separate Elan, so now the rest of The Order has to chase after him.

It's a different ballgame than, say, "Elan has been brainwashed into serving Xykon and now we have to do a whole weird mind control arc" or whatever.

I think it would be annoying for players though, in an actual game.

Of course, the medium of OotS means it can get away with plenty that wouldn’t slide at most tables for the sake of a better story. Case in point, most of the Don’t Split the Party arc and a good portion of Blood Runs In the Family.

[Fyraltari]

She said it wasn't the elemental plane of water and that she detected no fish - to our knowledge it isn't that elemental plane of water and she was not attacked by a fish.

It was? The "no life" conclusion?

My bad, I misremembered her as saying it was the Elemental Plane of water.

Sure, but we're talking ecosystem. Large mobile critters feed on smaller, less-mobile critters, and so on down to tiny critters that eat single-celled plants. There's a cutoff point of critters simply not being mobile enough to get out of the way of the Snarl. And generally, brain size and cognitive ability also decrease as one goes down that chain. Where's the cutoff point of "aware enough for Laurin to detect" relative to the cutoff point of "aware enough and mobile enough to leave the area that the Snarl is approaching"?

I'll grant that ecosystems often don't make a lot of sense in D&D worlds. Some of those monsters don't plausibly have access to enough prey (or other specialized food) to survive on. To quote Sam Gamgee, "What do they live on when they can't get hobbit?"

Like you've said, magic (especially D&D) ecosystems often don't make sense. I'm just saying we don't actually know the WwtW is barren of life.

[Riftwolf]

I think it would be annoying for players though, in an actual game.

Of course, the medium of OotS means it can get away with plenty that wouldn’t slide at most tables for the sake of a better story. Case in point, most of the Don’t Split the Party arc and a good portion of Blood Runs In the Family.

Most annoying part is when players don't differentiate between Charm and Domination. One of the funnier moments of dming was when I charged the party Barbarian, everyone worrying about how they'd beat him, then the Barbarian just saying 'sorry friend!' to the monster and running off to fight new targets.

[Peelee]

Like you've said, magic (especially D&D) ecosystems often don't make sense. I'm just saying we don't actually know the WwtW is barren of life.

That's true, but I do think it's the clear indication we are supposed to have.

[danielxcutter]

Most annoying part is when players don't differentiate between Charm and Domination. One of the funnier moments of dming was when I charged the party Barbarian, everyone worrying about how they'd beat him, then the Barbarian just saying 'sorry friend!' to the monster and running off to fight new targets.

I think compulsions in general are going to get old fast for players in an actual game.

[Peelee]

Imean, a lot of stuff in this strip would get old fast in an actual game. I much prefer it as a story.

[Quizatzhaderac]

That assumes a typical section of the planet has the Snarl in it.

Well, technically, it follows that the typical section of the planet has the snarl it in. But it's perfectly legitimate to criticize an assumption because you dislike the conclusions it leads to.

If we assume that the snarl is much smaller than the planet or unable to detect scrying and quickly travel to the source for most of the planet, then Laurin encountering the snarl is evidence that she wasn't looking at a typical section of the planet.

If we assume only that it's unlikely that the snarl was planet sized and unlikely that Laurin saw a atypical section of the planet, that we have evidence (but not proof) for both (1) the snarl is planet sized and (2) Laurin saw an unusual section of the planet.

For myself, I'm not inclined to believe that the snarl is small, local, or mono-present. In 274, panel 3 the snarl is described as destroying creation in 27 minutes and depicted (albeit in crayon) as larger than the planet. It's fair game to assume the crayons are wrong, but I'm still inclined to think of the snarl as a deity/force of nature rather than a person/unit with a finite location.

By analogy, if we saw an apple fall on the other planet, I wouldn't say "I see that's the part of the world where gravity is located"; I would say "that entire planet is affected by gravity".

She said it wasn't the elemental plane of water and that she detected no fish - to our knowledge it isn't that elemental plane of water and she was not attacked by a fish.

She was saying that it wasn't "going to be like the time with the marids", which presumably included trouble from the occupants of the plane.

She was searching for minds or units or living things or something that would presumably include both fish and marids, but apparently didn't include the snarl.

[Breccia]

Wasn't Haley doing something important with that skull?

"My chocolates! Come back, chocolates! I didn't mean what I said!"

DELETED!

[Kazyan]

I don't really mind this use of it. There's a difference between "mind control drives a major plot point and forces characters to do uncharacteristic things" and "mind control serves the same purpose as a shepherd's hook."

Basically, Elan could just as easily have been yoinked offstage by a Telekinesis spell or similar. The point is that somebody's attacking and they've managed to separate Elan, so now the rest of The Order has to chase after him.

It's a different ballgame than, say, "Elan has been brainwashed into serving Xykon and now we have to do a whole weird mind control arc" or whatever.

Yeah, it's not as comprehensive as Durkon's inner battle, but that's not what I was comparing it to. I meant all of the other uses of swirly eyes in Utterly Dwarfed, where characters were frequently dominated into making bad decisions--or if they were background characters, just turned into a vampire.

Like, thematically, we just had several strips about the nature of responsibility, and a telekinetic speech by Roy about what the order is going to do next. So, playing the mind control card just feels lame--it makes me wonder what the point of all that discussion is if the protagonists are just going to have their ability to make choices deleted when it's narratively useful. It also compromises the weight of V's remaining consequences with the IFCC--it's supposed to be a big deal that V will unexpectedly lose agenticity two more times, but, like, if that's just going to happen to the PCs all the time anyway, how much does it matter?

[Wraithfighter]

Seems really premature to blow on this. They only have two of those left, and the party's not even close to finding the real gate as far as we know, so it doesn't help them ensure this gate's destruction, which seems to be where they're going with all this.

And I should say that I expect their use of the second long debt to invert the previous situation, by having the three directors (or at least one of them) come to the prime material for the duration of the timeshare, since all they specified about how collection works is that their soul spends time with the directors, which isn't necessarily on their home turf. Combine that with them saying they can only be on the Prime Material to make a deal, and, well, that loophole demands exploitation. So that's gonna be their big surprise gambit there, not repeating what they did before.

Well, assuming that's what their goals are. They obviously wanted Girard's Gate to be destroyed, but they've been quite mum on their actual aims.

As for it being wasteful... possibly. But the advantage of keeping V out of a fight between OOTS and Serini would be to prevent V from shutting down Serini with a few spells, and forcing an actual fight that might leave someone dead. Like Serini.

Again, more likely to just be an art decision. But interesting to ponder, at least.

[TRH]

Most annoying part is when players don't differentiate between Charm and Domination. One of the funnier moments of dming was when I charged the party Barbarian, everyone worrying about how they'd beat him, then the Barbarian just saying 'sorry friend!' to the monster and running off to fight new targets.

Not an expert on these things, but couldn't the charmer have at least asked the Barbarian not to hurt their friends? I suppose that hangs on how you interpret what the subject "would ordinarily do," but I'd guess not fighting would qualify at least as something they do sometimes.

As for this as an actual game...well, dealing with Roy and Durkon's players while they were dead could be really tricky. I feel like at a minimum, they'd each expect to be allowed to play another character for a bit once they realized they couldn't be raised quickly.

And they routinely face challenges way above their encounter level with suboptimal characters and the party constantly split. And I'm not even talking about fights with Team Evil. They also had to face a CR20 Pit Fiend with the party split in half, one of them faced a CR19 Ancient Black Dragon alone, two of them (with one incapacitated) plus an NPC that refused to fight and another mid-level NPC faced a CR17 rogue leader, his CR13 assassin and a small army of lower-level thieves, they faced an arbitrarily large number of mooks and three seemingly epic-level characters at the end of a long adventuring day, and I'm not sure how to calculate some of the Utterly Dwarfed encounters, but the frost giants and the fight with Greg also involved a bunch of high-CR monsters.

[TRH]

Well, assuming that's what their goals are. They obviously wanted Girard's Gate to be destroyed, but they've been quite mum on their actual aims.

As for it being wasteful... possibly. But the advantage of keeping V out of a fight between OOTS and Serini would be to prevent V from shutting down Serini with a few spells, and forcing an actual fight that might leave someone dead. Like Serini.

Again, more likely to just be an art decision. But interesting to ponder, at least.

But that assumes they're heavily invested in Serini beating the order or potentially getting killed by the order. Insofar as their goals are cryptic enough to possibly be a lot of things, you could technically argue that they might be advanced by either of those, but we do know at least a little about what they're driving at. They want to intensify the struggle over the Gates, which already makes Serini's goals run counter to theirs, since she wants to shut down this conflict even at the cost of effectively surrendering to Xykon. They also seem to want to destroy the world, as evidenced by saying that Hel almost did their job for them. Again, entirely the opposite of Serini's goals. So to sum up my argument:

1. The fiends have limited uses of their soul debt to discharge.
2. Therefore, they should not use it unless they're highly confident it will directly and materially influence the accomplishment of their primary objectives.
3. Their primary objectives involve intensified conflict over Gates, the destruction of the world, or both.
4. Kraagor's Gate has not been located yet.
5. Serini's goals involve preserving the world and ending conflict over Gates.
6. Therefore, helping Serini at this juncture would be costly in terms of resources, is unlikely to make progress towards their primary objectives because the final Gate's location remains unknown, and in fact seems actively counterproductive to their stated goals given Serini's priorities diverge from their own.
7. A loophole in their contract could potentially allow one of the archfiends to manifest on the Prime Material plane.
8. One potential application of this loophole would be to destroy the last Gate once it's located.
9. Therefore, using their debt to "scry and die" the final Gate and force the Gods to destroy the world immediately would be an efficient and relatively low-risk way to reach their final goal, and can be kept in reserve until they're sure they've reached the target.

Yeah, it's not as comprehensive as Durkon's inner battle, but that's not what I was comparing it to. I meant all of the other uses of swirly eyes in Utterly Dwarfed, where characters were frequently dominated into making bad decisions--or if they were background characters, just turned into a vampire.

Like, thematically, we just had several strips about the nature of responsibility, and a telekinetic speech by Roy about what the order is going to do next. So, playing the mind control card just feels lame--it makes me wonder what the point of all that discussion is if the protagonists are just going to have their ability to make choices deleted when it's narratively useful. It also compromises the weight of V's remaining consequences with the IFCC--it's supposed to be a big deal that V will unexpectedly lose agenticity two more times, but, like, if that's just going to happen to the PCs all the time anyway, how much does it matter?

Another bonus to my theory about the last soul debt is that if I'm right, V losing agency for a while will be the least of their worries at that point.

[Ionathus]

Yeah, it's not as comprehensive as Durkon's inner battle, but that's not what I was comparing it to. I meant all of the other uses of swirly eyes in Utterly Dwarfed, where characters were frequently dominated into making bad decisions--or if they were background characters, just turned into a vampire.

Like, thematically, we just had several strips about the nature of responsibility, and a telekinetic speech by Roy about what the order is going to do next. So, playing the mind control card just feels lame--it makes me wonder what the point of all that discussion is if the protagonists are just going to have their ability to make choices deleted when it's narratively useful. It also compromises the weight of V's remaining consequences with the IFCC--it's supposed to be a big deal that V will unexpectedly lose agenticity two more times, but, like, if that's just going to happen to the PCs all the time anyway, how much does it matter?

I still think you're making a mistake by assuming this is anything but a momentary charm. When V cast suggestion on Enor or the Frost Giant Clerics, that wasn't some narrative statement about free will. It was a combat tactic. It was a method of temporarily neutralizing a combatant. It's no different than Z trying to Plane Shift V to the semi-elemental plane of ranch dressing, or Durkon casting Hold Person on Thog back in Azure City.

Elan is not going to make any narrative decisions while mind-controlled. The plot will not be decided by mind control. The mind control will not be important. It's a momentary combat tactic by a tricksy rogue who's trying to separate them; nothing more.

[Doug Lampert]

Not an expert on these things, but couldn't the charmer have at least asked the Barbarian not to hurt their friends? I suppose that hangs on how you interpret what the subject "would ordinarily do," but I'd guess not fighting would qualify at least as something they do sometimes.

Charm makes the charmer your friend. If there's an ongoing combat then this link shows basically exactly the described actions except with no charm spell (instead just with a friend on the other side).

You help your friends against their foes by attacking people who aren't your friends, then you try to separate people, because that's what a sane person would do in the situation where there's a deadly combat going on and they have a bunch of friends on one side and one friend on the other side. Attack someone else and try to end the battle with all your friends still alive.

[Krakius]

So, does anyone know if we've seen a caster with an orange magic aura before? Because I don't think we have.

[TRH]

So, does anyone know if we've seen a caster with an orange magic aura before? Because I don't think we have.

The Cleric of Loki who removed Belkar's Mark of Justice curse in Cliffport.

[bunsen_h]

Indeed, unless it has a range of several miles, once you're 20 miles off the coastal shelf there's almost no life at the surface of our ocean. Hers could be the same. That said, it doesn't seem like the snarl is known for leaving things alive. There's really just not enough data to make any reasonable predictions about what's going on yet that I can tell.

I don't think we've got evidence that the Snarl kills absolutely any living creature it contacts, do we? We know that it goes after people and gods; have we seen it kill anything else, short of destroying whole worlds? Even the "crayons" stuff from SoD doesn't indicate it.

[hroþila]

I don't think we've got evidence that the Snarl kills absolutely any living creature it contacts, do we? We know that it goes after people and gods; have we seen it kill anything else, short of destroying whole worlds? Even the "crayons" stuff from SoD doesn't indicate it.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html

It rained bloody armageddon down on the world, devouring each and every soul, from the mightiest dragon to the tiniest gnats. Nothing escaped it.

That's the lore of the Sapphire Guard. Apply as much salt as you see fit.

[glissle]

The inevitability of a happy ending doesn't prove that Serini is wrong about what the Order might be willing to do. We are witnessing a sequence of events that will have a happy ending. That sequence of events includes Serini interfering with the Order. We have no way of knowing whether a happy ending would have happened without Serini's interference.

She was searching for minds or units or living things or something that would presumably include both fish and marids, but apparently didn't include the snarl.

That reminds me of the protomolecule network from The Expanse: so much more intelligent than human beings that it can simulate them, but not conscious itself.

[WanderingMist]

Why do you think that Serini is so sad? Why do you think Girard is so angry at Soon?
I have offered a hope that Kraagor was taken to the world in the snarl, and is sipping ice cold daquaris on a beach, but it is not helpful that Laurin detected no fish when she psi'd through the portal ... so I'm not sure what he'd eat.

If you have reason to think Kraagor is not dead, what is it?

Only that the gods had no idea about the world inside the rift.

People keep using that as evidence of the world-within-the-world being barren of life, I keep asking what the range of Laurin's detection spell is and I keep not getting a response. Could she really have scanned the entire planet?

Whether or not she could have, the real question is if she could have detected 4-colored beings, since the Snarl managed to sneak up on her despite being seemingly gigantic.

If she used hypercognition she could just know the correct answer based on very little information.

No, she could come up with an intelligent answer and be able to logically defend it. It wouldn't make that answer correct.

Yeah, it's not as comprehensive as Durkon's inner battle, but that's not what I was comparing it to. I meant all of the other uses of swirly eyes in Utterly Dwarfed, where characters were frequently dominated into making bad decisions--or if they were background characters, just turned into a vampire.

Like, thematically, we just had several strips about the nature of responsibility, and a telekinetic speech by Roy about what the order is going to do next. So, playing the mind control card just feels lame--it makes me wonder what the point of all that discussion is if the protagonists are just going to have their ability to make choices deleted when it's narratively useful. It also compromises the weight of V's remaining consequences with the IFCC--it's supposed to be a big deal that V will unexpectedly lose agenticity two more times, but, like, if that's just going to happen to the PCs all the time anyway, how much does it matter?

It matters a lot more with V since as a wizard, V is 5/8 of their firepower. V used to be 9/10 of it, but the party has certainly grown stronger individually over time.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html

That's the lore of the Sapphire Guard. Apply as much salt as you see fit.

But...who told the Sapphire Guard that, or, more accurately, which god told the Order of the Scribble how things went down on that first world?

[Peelee]

That's the lore of the Sapphire Guard. Apply as much salt as you see fit.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

Shojo's story had Soon's wife die by the Snarl, and Redcloak's story had the goblin with chickens die by the Snarl. I feel like it's safe to say the Snarl most likely does kill mortals.

Plus whatever happened to Kraagor.

[bunsen_h]

That's the lore of the Sapphire Guard. Apply as much salt as you see fit.

Fair point. We know that it's badly incomplete, which required at least some invention, if only to cover the holes.

EDIT:

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

Shojo's story had Soon's wife die by the Snarl, and Redcloak's story had the goblin with chickens die by the Snarl. I feel like it's safe to say the Snarl most likely does kill mortals.

Sure, but that doesn't indicate whether it goes after living creatures who aren't people.

[danielxcutter]

Sure, but that doesn't indicate whether it goes after living creatures who aren't people.

I assume chicken don’t count as people. Also Lirian met Soon while she was looking into the disappearance of forest creatures, so…

[Crœsos]

Lutey the Lute-tastical Lute gets name checked for the second time. Here was the first. Bonus points for continuity!

[bunsen_h]

I assume chicken don’t count as people. Also Lirian met Soon while she was looking into the disappearance of forest creatures, so…

The forest creatures disappeared, presumably into the rift; we don't know of anything bad that happened to them or the chicken.

[danielxcutter]

Considering what happened to one of the Weepies when Lauren probed the Rift, it’s still safe to say Kraagor’s probably long gone.

[Squire Doodad]

Considering what happened to one of the Weepies when Lauren probed the Rift, it’s still safe to say Kraagor’s probably long gone.

Yeah, even assuming Kraagor isn't dead from literally anything else, his soul has most likely been pierced like a ripe tomato.

Unless the Snarl in its current state is specifically non-aggressive unless provoked and it turns out it destroys worlds to feed on the threads or something, with consumed souls being an irrelevant side effect for it.
Which, if she's had enough time to peer into the rift and learn basic things about the Snarl, could be a reason why Serini is willing to live with Xykon taking over. She'd be assuming the Snarl is just a doomsday device in this scenario, and not something at risk of endangering the world unless it gets loose loose (in which case it'd start to feed on the loosened threads again, destroying everything).

But that assumes several other assumptions, none of which we have reason to believe.

[pendell]

So, le joie commence. I assume this is an opening shot of Serini's based on the color of the swirly eyes, intended to divide and split the party so she can Metal Gear them individually. That's a sound strategy for an epic rogue against a high level party.

I'm puzzled this gambit worked to charm Elan, though. If they're buffing for an epic battle against a lich, surely they've got a protection from mind-affecting spells buff in place?

Perhaps they're relying on something like protection from evil, though Belkar doesn't seem to be in any discomfort, which he SHOULD be feeling if he's under the influence of his personal trinket. Still, if that is the case, I wonder if the penny will drop for Roy and Durkon: If our characters are being affected by a charm when we are under the influence of Protection from Evil, it follows the attacker must not be evil themselves. Who, then, is neutral or good yet is attacking us?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Fyraltari]

So, le joie commence.

This is a friendly reminder that translation software isn't your friend.

I assume this is an opening shot of Serini's based on the color of the swirly eyes, intended to divide and split the party so she can Metal Gear them individually. That's a sound strategy for an epic rogue against a high level party.

Yeah, that's about right.

I'm puzzled this gambit worked to charm Elan, though. If they're buffing for an epic battle against a lich, surely they've got a protection from mind-affecting spells buff in place?

It's not a tactic Team Evil is particularly fond of, though. Apart from the throne room fight, I don't remember Xykon or Redcloak using something like that in a fight.