OOTS #1236 - The Discussion Thread

[KorvinStarmast]

The mind control will not be important. It's a momentary combat tactic by a tricksy rogue who's trying to separate them; nothing more.

Two centavos bet on this one.

Only that the gods had no idea about the world inside the rift.
{snip} But...who told the Sapphire Guard that, or, more accurately, which god told the Order of the Scribble how things went down on that first world?

Good question; I think that an epic level druid (Scribbler) has the ability to commune with deity-level beings so she might have been the source of "what's behind this?" information. She's the divine caster (Dorukan was the arcane caster) who put the constraints on the Snarl in place. That's my guess: Lirian is the primary source of that information.

That's a sound strategy for an epic rogue against a high level party.
{snip} I'm puzzled this gambit worked to charm Elan, though.

Plucking the low hanging fruit first.

{snip} I wonder if the penny will drop for Roy and Durkon: If our characters are being affected by a charm when we are under the influence of Protection from Evil, it follows the attacker must not be evil themselves. Who, then, is neutral or good yet is attacking us?

Don't see them getting that far into analysis as they run after Elan.

[Fyraltari]

Good question; I think that an epic level druid (Scribbler) has the ability to commune with deity-level beings so she might have been the source of "what' behind this" and she's the divine caster (Dorukan the arcane caster) who put the constraints on the Snarl in place. That's my guess.

Soo is the religious one so he could have prayed and received an answer too. These two are also the only two we know to have had an experience with the Snarl prior to joining the Order of the Scribble (as they founded it in response) so they were also the only two the gods were allowed to disclose information about the Snarl. Unless they learned all that after recruiting the others which is possible too, I guess.

[TRH]

Perhaps they're relying on something like protection from evil, though Belkar doesn't seem to be in any discomfort, which he SHOULD be feeling if he's under the influence of his personal trinket. Still, if that is the case, I wonder if the penny will drop for Roy and Durkon: If our characters are being affected by a charm when we are under the influence of Protection from Evil, it follows the attacker must not be evil themselves. Who, then, is neutral or good yet is attacking us?

The mind-affecting protection provided by Protection from Evil isn't alignment-specific, only its bonus to AC and saves are limited to attacks from evil creatures.

[dancrilis]

No, she could come up with an intelligent answer and be able to logically defend it. It wouldn't make that answer correct.

It doesn't take very high level psionics for that.

[Ionathus]

The Sapphire Guard also purged records of the Rifts from records across the world. I'd believe that there was already some literature/analysis of the rifts, more broadly available to mortals, but that information was then censored by the SG to protect knowledge of the gates from aspiring World-Conquerors.

[Peelee]

Sure, but that doesn't indicate whether it goes after living creatures who aren't people.

Why would the Snarl make this distinction?

This is a friendly reminder that translation software isn't your friend.

What was it supposed to say, what's the right way to say it in french, and how common an expression is it? The latter part is why I'm asking about the two former parts.

[Doug Lampert]

Why would the Snarl make this distinction?

The idea that the Snarl might NOT go after animals strikes me as semi-bizarre. But we have at least three pieces of evidence that suggest that it does go after animals (the lore of the sapphire guard, missing animals near a rift, nothing detectable living in its world's ocean), do we have ANY evidence that it does not?

It could be that it only kills animals when unmaking a world, but ripping the rifts and reaching through them are presumably PART of unmaking a world or at least trying to do so.

It could be that the missing animals near a rift just happened to wander through the rift in large enough numbers to be noticed and draw the attention of a high level druid due to the never mentioned "rifts randomly attract animals" feature.

It could be that Laurin just happened to have no idea of what her range is or of how many animals would be expected within that range and was mistaken about the lack of detectable life meaning uninhabited; of course, this might run into trouble with the "rifts randomly attract animals" feature I needed for the last point, maybe it's attractive on this side and repulsive on the other side, yeah, that's not blatantly straining to force an explanation at all.

I might buy any one of these, but for all of the above to be true, you're getting deep into "Rich is deliberately misleading us" territory. There's something going on with the snarl and rifts beyond what we know, and that something will be relevant to the final solution, but other than the fact that we're missing SOMETHING, I'm not seeing where the idea that it might not be killing animals has any support at all or why that's a plausible something for us to be missing.

[Fyraltari]

What was it supposed to say, what's the right way to say it in french, and how common an expression is it? The latter part is why I'm asking about the two former parts.

"So the fun begins" is my best guess.
This isn't really a case where you can make a 1-to-1 translation of the idiom, but the closest I can think would be "que la fête commence!" "Let the party start!" Which is a reasonnably common thing to say.

"le joie" is grammatically incorrect, by the way, it's "la joie" (joy). There is no proper translation of the word "fun" in French, as it covers several concepts. So we loaned it from you. Therefore yoy could say "Et le fun commence maintenant." (and the fun begins now) or some variation to get the point across.

[Wannes]

What was it supposed to say, what's the right way to say it in french, and how common an expression is it? The latter part is why I'm asking about the two former parts.

I thought it was a bad translation of "let the game begin", which in French would be "Que le jeu commence", but "let the fun begin" fits better.

[dancrilis]

I'm puzzled this gambit worked to charm Elan, though. If they're buffing for an epic battle against a lich, surely they've got a protection from mind-affecting spells buff in place?

Having Protection from Evil would be a very good move at fairly low cost to the party - however the party has not been shown to be optimal, which feeds into what Serini's was saying about them not being out of their league against Xykon.

It's not a tactic Team Evil is particularly fond of, though. Apart from the throne room fight, I don't remember Xykon or Redcloak using something like that in a fight.

Xykon has mass hold person which is a compulsion effect that would (it is an arguable point on the wording) be protected against by protection from evil - and could in theory one shot the party.

[TRH]

Xykon has mass hold person which is a compulsion effect that would (it is an arguable point on the wording) be protected against by protection from evil - and could in theory one shot the party.

I'm guessing the Giant wouldn't let that fly even if RAW might say otherwise, since hold person doesn't seem like mind control even if it technically is the same kind of magic, so I suppose they have that excuse. And mass hold person is definitely not one of Xykon's more common tactics.

[danielxcutter]

Xykon has mass hold person which is a compulsion effect that would (it is an arguable point on the wording) be protected against by protection from evil - and could in theory one shot the party.

Compulsion's a descriptor like Fire, so yeah it counts. I think Durkon might just throw up a Magic Circle Against Evil or something though.

I'm guessing the Giant wouldn't let that fly even if RAW might say otherwise, since hold person doesn't seem like mind control even if it technically is the same kind of magic, so I suppose they have that excuse. And mass hold person is definitely not one of Xykon's more common tactics.

"Mind-affecting" is a considerably wider spectrum than "mind control". If it's messing with your mind instead of physically holding you still, it usually falls under that.

[pendell]

I thought it was a bad translation of "let the game begin", which in French would be "Que le jeu commence", but "let the fun begin" fits better.

Precisely. Thank you , Wannes, and sorry , Fyaltari, for butchering your language. But yes, I was going for "the fun begins". (la joie = joy, rejoicing, commence = to start, to begin).

That wasn't translation software , though. It was a quote from memory. Most likely me quoting a twentieth century SF author (can't remember which one) quoting a French personality at the onset of a battle. Ah well. At least I got my point across even if I shouldn't be applying for a job as a localization expert any time soon. Although Considering the competition maybe not.

Considering how bad localisations can be, I'm a bit surprised the Académie Française doesn't have a special division just to keep people from butchering French in games the way Engrish is. Perhaps they set one up and all the members died of aneurysms?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[dancrilis]

Compulsion's a descriptor like Fire, so yeah it counts. I think Durkon might just throw up a Magic Circle Against Evil or something though.

I would think so but ...

Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person).

I could see an arguement for Hold Person not granting any control over the creature - it just makes them paralyzed, also I could see that arguement supported by the fact that if Protection from Evil protected against all compulsion effects it wouldn't need to specify 'that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject'.

So I would say it is debatable as to if hold person is covered by protection from evil - but if I were Roy I would not be risking running that test in a fight with Xykon (especially when Xykon, Redcloak and friend do have other abilities that protection from evil certainly covers).

[TRH]

"Mind-affecting" is a considerably wider spectrum than "mind control". If it's messing with your mind instead of physically holding you still, it usually falls under that.

My point is that Rich cares more about things being intuitive for a general audience than RAW and how these things play out in an actual campaign. That's why he used healing potions and almost no healing wands for the longest time, because healing potions are a common motif that goes beyond D&D, while wands of healing make less immediate sense. By the same token, I wouldn't expect him to let protection from evil work against hold person even if RAW says otherwise because that doesn't follow naturally to someone who's unfamiliar with this system. Freedom of Movement would work because it stops spells that impede movement, but Protection or Mind Blank are only connected to hold person by the specifics of the magic system and schools of magic, intricate details that would confuse an outsider.

[Fyraltari]

Precisely. Thank you , Wannes, and sorry , Fyaltari, for butchering your language. But yes, I was going for "the fun begins". (la joie = joy, rejoicing, commence = to start, to begin).

Wait, was it "la joie" (joy) or "le jeu" (the game) that you meant?

That wasn't translation software , though. It was a quote from memory. Most likely me quoting a twentieth century SF author (can't remember which one) quoting a French personality at the onset of a battle.

Uh. The closest quote I can find would be Nicolas Changarnier's "Soldats, ils sont six mille, vous êtes trois cents. La partie est donc égale. Regardez-les en face et tirez juste." ("Soldiers, they are six thousands, you are three hundreds. The game is therefore balanced. Look them in the eye and shoot true.") That doesn't feel right.

Considering how bad localisations can be, I'm a bit surprised the Académie Française doesn't have a special division just to keep people from butchering French in games the way Engrish is. Perhaps they set one up and all the members died of aneurysms?

It's cute that you think the Académie cares at all what English-speakers are doing. Or that they would ever do anything positive.

[bunsen_h]

Why would the Snarl make this distinction?

It's possible that it's interested in sentience / intelligence, in particular. Do animals have souls, in D&D? If not, the Snarl may be interested only in souls and soul-powered beings like the gods. The descriptions and images we have from the "crayons" sequences don't seem to suggest that the Snarl reaches out through the rifts to take plant life, at any rate. There's no mention of the immediate vicinity of the rifts being scoured of all life, and that would have been notable. Lirian was searching for some missing animals, but there's no mention of the Snarl having cleared the vicinity of the forest rift of all animal life.

[Peelee]

It's possible that it's interested in sentience / intelligence, in particular. Do animals have souls, in D&D? If not, the Snarl may be interested only in souls and soul-powered beings like the gods. The descriptions and images we have from the "crayons" sequences don't seem to suggest that the Snarl reaches out through the rifts to take plant life, at any rate. There's no mention of the immediate vicinity of the rifts being scoured of all life, and that would have been notable. Lirian was searching for some missing animals, but there's no mention of the Snarl having cleared the vicinity of the forest rift of all animal life.

Barring specific instances, plant life is not typically a "creature" in D&D terms, which may be notable for the lack of plant death.

Outsiders are intelligent, withiut souls, and not soul powered, so one would expect that the gods would be likely to try to send them to at the very least act as buffers between them and the Snarl before mind wiping them if they were protected.

[Blue Dragon]

I don't think Serini is trying to separate them, though. She is removing the party from their ambush spot.

[TRH]

Unless I'm forgetting something, is this lengthy back and forth on the Snarl's eating habits not supposed to relate back to the original question of whether the planet in the rift is inhabited or not? Because if that's what this boils down to, then I don't see why we need to make this more complicated than that we just don't have enough information to be sure. The Snarl hasn't consumed that planet yet, so if there's life down there, it might also have been spared for whatever reason, but we simply don't know.

I don't think Serini is trying to separate them, though. She is removing the party from their ambush spot.

Two things can be true. That being said, her attitude re: the inevitability of Xykon seizing the Gate means that she might not value the secret of the tunnels nearly as much as we initially assumed. And if the Order did blow that surprise, only to rush to near-immediate death at the hands of Team Evil without having found the Gate to potentially destroy it, that's close to a best-case scenario for her.

[dancrilis]

It's possible that it's interested in sentience / intelligence, in particular. Do animals have souls, in D&D? If not, the Snarl may be interested only in souls and soul-powered beings like the gods. The descriptions and images we have from the "crayons" sequences don't seem to suggest that the Snarl reaches out through the rifts to take plant life, at any rate. There's no mention of the immediate vicinity of the rifts being scoured of all life, and that would have been notable. Lirian was searching for some missing animals, but there's no mention of the Snarl having cleared the vicinity of the forest rift of all animal life.

Dogs go to Celestia.

[pendell]

Wait, was it "la joie" (joy) or "le jeu" (the game) that you meant?

I meant "la joie" (the joy = the fun) but, now that you've mentioned it, "le jeu commence" (let the game begin) would be a better phrase and better communicate the idea. So I would've meant "Le Jeu Commence" if I'd spoken to you beforehand

Uh. The closest quote I can find would be Nicolas Changarnier's "Soldats, ils sont six mille, vous êtes trois cents. La partie est donc égale. Regardez-les en face et tirez juste." ("Soldiers, they are six thousands, you are three hundreds. The game is therefore balanced. Look them in the eye and shoot true.") That doesn't feel right.

Fair. It was only a half-remembered quote anyway. I'm willing to forget it if you are.

It's cute that you think the Académie cares at all what English-speakers are doing. Or that they would ever do anything positive.

Well, you pay for them so they must be good for something right? I would've expected translations of video games into inferior French to give some people heart attacks. Is this not a thing that happens? It's hard for me to imagine that the people who funded such poor English translations would suddenly turn around and hire top-class talent for the French localisation.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[dancrilis]

Well, you pay for them so they must be good for something right?

Just because someone forces you to pay for something doesn't necessarily mean that the thing you are paying for is good for anything other then as a excuse to take your money.

[Fyraltari]

I meant "la joie" (the joy = the fun) but, now that you've mentioned it, "le jeu commence" (let the game begin) would be a better phrase and better communicate the idea. So I would've meant "Le Jeu Commence" if I'd spoken to you beforehand

I think you've mixed up Wannes and me at some point. They suggested you meant "game" and you replied "precisely".

Well, you pay for them so they must be good for something right?

I honestly have nothing good to say about the institution. I'd develop but it'd get political, so let me just point out that their pretense to be a safeguard for the French language is ridiculous on at least two accounts: 1) they don't have a single liguist in their roster* 2) most native French speakers aren't French.

I would've expected translations of video games into inferior French to give some people heart attacks. Is this not a thing that happens? It's hard for me to imagine that the people who funded such poor English translations would suddenly turn around and hire top-class talent for the French localisation.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Maybe it's because of my relative youth, or because I don't play that many video games or because most game I've played are western products but I don't recall running into actually bad localisations.

*It's almost like linguists don't like prescriptivism, who would have guessed?

[Quizatzhaderac]

It's cute that you think the Académie cares at all what English-speakers are doing. Or that they would ever do anything positive.

But what if the game was using anglicisms or provincial language?

Surely, then they'd want to put at least a parental advisory sticker on them?

Fun fact, the united states actually has three language academies: Spanish, Yiddish, and more Spanish.

[Jay R]

Like you've said, magic (especially D&D) ecosystems often don't make sense. I'm just saying we don't actually know the WwtW is barren of life.

It has large green areas. That's usually an indication of life.

[Quizatzhaderac]

It could also be that all the bacteria and things that cause rotting are also dead, in which case the planet would remain green without anything green growing recently.

[Riftwolf]

Not an expert on these things, but couldn't the charmer have at least asked the Barbarian not to hurt their friends? I suppose that hangs on how you interpret what the subject "would ordinarily do," but I'd guess not fighting would qualify at least as something they do sometimes.

The charmer (a Harpy sorcerer) had hoped the Barbarian would defend her from the rest of the party at least for a few rounds (I should point out that the Dungeon they were running was a 'timed' event where the party had 100rds to get to the Evil Priests before they could summon an Emissary of Lamashtu. The monsters weren't fighting to survive, just stall the party long enough to complete the ritual. Thinking the entire dungeon populace were the Barbarians friend after a 1st level spell would've been taking the proverbial, especially as the Barbarians sister was being used as a vessel for the Emissary)

but I'd guess not fighting would qualify at least as something they do sometimes.

You very clearly didn't know this Barbarian. I asked him to wait. He stormed the castle alone. When the party needed info on the cult, he randomly arrested a bystander for interrogation before finding out the rest of the party had followed up on actual clues I gave them. Rather than freeing the prisoner, he told the guards (who were all too terrified of him to argue) that he'd been caught shoplifting.

[bunsen_h]

It could also be that all the bacteria and things that cause rotting are also dead, in which case the planet would remain green without anything green growing recently.

Chlorophyll and many other plant pigments degrade fairly quickly in the presence of light and oxygen, when they're not part of a living system. Green turns grungy brown. Some other plant pigments are more stable -- those used for dying fabric, for example.

When I was in my second summer working in a chem lab, IIRC, I extracted chlorophyll and a couple of flower colours into solvents to decorate my lab coat with. It seemed to work pretty well initially, but they all faded to brown really quickly.

[TRH]

You very clearly didn't know this Barbarian. I asked him to wait. He stormed the castle alone. When the party needed info on the cult, he randomly arrested a bystander for interrogation before finding out the rest of the party had followed up on actual clues I gave them. Rather than freeing the prisoner, he told the guards (who were all too terrified of him to argue) that he'd been caught shoplifting.

I'll admit, I hesitated to add that clause at all specifically because I figured it was far more likely than not that your barbarian friend was more or less as you describe. I was thinking in a more general "if you don't fight literally every waking hour, then not fighting would at least not be against your nature," but, well, even that might be optimistic.