OOTS #1236 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

Chlorophyll and many other plant pigments degrade fairly quickly in the presence of light and oxygen, when they're not part of a living system. Green turns grungy brown. Some other plant pigments are more stable -- those used for dying fabric, for example.

When I was in my second summer working in a chem lab, IIRC, I extracted chlorophyll and a couple of flower colours into solvents to decorate my lab coat with. It seemed to work pretty well initially, but they all faded to brown really quickly.

Had you considered turning your lab coat into a living system?

I once looked into making myself a lab coat with an old-school design, like early 20th century ish. Similar to Dr Horrible's. Did a good bit of research finding the actual material really good lab coats are made of. Can't remember the name of it, but I was damned impressed by its properties.

[F.Harr]

I'm sure it's been said before, but Roy's really grown as a leader.

And Elan as comic relief/Damsle in distress.

[arimareiji]

Chlorophyll and many other plant pigments degrade fairly quickly in the presence of light and oxygen, when they're not part of a living system. Green turns grungy brown. Some other plant pigments are more stable -- those used for dying fabric, for example.

When I was in my second summer working in a chem lab, IIRC, I extracted chlorophyll and a couple of flower colours into solvents to decorate my lab coat with. It seemed to work pretty well initially, but they all faded to brown really quickly.

Thank you, that clicked a puzzle piece into place. Feel free to laugh, but I was bemused by the fact that the last leaf on an orchid I accidentally baked^* is still green, although fading to brown -- I was extremely optimistically hoping that while the others had gone brown quickly, maybe the plant could be rescued if this one didn't die. (It stands to reason that it already has, it'll just take a little while for it to be obvious.)

_{* - Our practice moved to a much nicer location... but we didn't realize that with the angle of the building and less-reflective windows, on sunny warm days^** temperatures can soar in the early-to-mid morning before anyone arrives.
** - Uncommon in the Pacific NW, but sometimes it happens. (^_~)}

[greenfunkman]

This is slightly off topic but do you think that Belkar's skills in the culinary arts would allow him to create masterpieces on Serini's alchemy cauldron?

[danielxcutter]

This is slightly off topic but do you think that Belkar's skills in the culinary arts would allow him to create masterpieces on Serini's alchemy cauldron?

The fire in a pottery kiln does not a fried egg make. I suspect it’d be the same with that.

[Skull the Troll]

The fire in a pottery kiln does not a fried egg make. I suspect it’d be the same with that.

I dont know... He made a passable stew once with scavenged veggies from a battlefield, some buzzard, and (probably) some goblin bits.

[danielxcutter]

I dont know... He made a passable stew once with scavenged veggies from a battlefield, some buzzard, and (probably) some goblin bits.

Considering the MitD is willing to call dibs on a moldy cheeseburger and was eating fat-free scones, I'm not inclined to consider his tastes to be accurate guidelines.

[Quizatzhaderac]

The fire in a pottery kiln does not a fried egg make. I suspect it’d be the same with that.

I guess that's possible in principle, but I don't see any reason for an alchemy cauldron to be so much worse in any aspect than a regular cauldron; much like you can definitely cook in a standardly equipped chemistry lab, it's just inefficient.

As long as alchemy frequently involves not burning stuff, heating stuff, and control over the temperature and time, and cleanliness/purity of ingredients: you have the tools you need.

Cooking is just chemistry with edible stuff.

[bunsen_h]

Had you considered turning your lab coat into a living system?

I can't see how that could go wrong.

"New from Muppet Labs, Where the Future is Being Made Today! Living clothing! It's warm, it's comfortable, it's... uh, Beaker, I think that lab coat is a bit long for you. The sleeves are going past your hands, and the collar is starting to go over your head. Oh, dear..." [*grumf grumf*]

See also: the "cat blanket" from the Vorkosiverse.

I once looked into making myself a lab coat with an old-school design, like early 20th century ish. Similar to Dr Horrible's. Did a good bit of research finding the actual material really good lab coats are made of. Can't remember the name of it, but I was damned impressed by its properties.

Of the four lab coats in our house -- two are mine, two my wife's -- three are labelled with their ingredients: polyester/cotton. One of those is also labelled "post cured". I don't know if they're "really good lab coats". From a bit of searching on line to find out what the "post cured" means, I get the impression that the fabric material is originally spun as plain cotton. Then either before or after weaving, that's impregnated with polyester resin and "cured" at around 100'C for about an hour -- which sets the resin -- then "post cured" at around 80'C for about 12 hours, which presumably makes it still more stable. This gives the fabric the strength of the cotton, and adds the chemical resistance of fully-cured polyester, completely protecting the cotton. There aren't a lot of reagents that would chew through that quickly, so one would have a decent chance of getting the lab coat off before the chemical got to one's clothing, or oneself. Regular polyester/cotton blends -- I think -- are spun into thread out of a combination of the two fibres, so there isn't the effect of the two materials protecting each other.

Back when I was a lab TA for first-year university students, a major part of the "your first day in a chemistry lab" orientation was the safety stuff: knowing the locations of fire extinguishers, eye wash stations, emergency showers, and such. The importance of wearing a lab coat and safety goggles or side shields any time one was around chemicals, because even if you weren't working with them, your neighbour might be, or there might be some unexpected reaction waiting to happen from a mistake that someone had made sometime previously. "Because some of the chemicals you'll be working with, and some of the things just sitting out on your bench at all times -- you see those bottles on the little stands in the middle of the benches? -- can hurt you pretty badly. If you get them on you, wash them off immediately. If you spill one of them on your lab coat, take it off right away. If you think something nasty has gotten into your clothing, or you get a bad spill on your skin, get under the safety shower, yank the lever, and get your clothes off. I'm not trying to be crude here, and I'm not joking about this. Which is worse, a bit of embarrassment, or permanent scarring? I personally would prefer that you not get injured; the paperwork is a pain."

[Peelee]

I can't see how that could go wrong. .

Think of it, you could be the father of a whole new field of science!

Of the four lab coats in our house -- two are mine, two my wife's -- three are labelled with their ingredients: polyester/cotton. One of those is also labelled "post cured". I don't know if they're "really good lab coats". From a bit of searching on line to find out what the "post cured" means, I get the impression that the fabric material is originally spun as plain cotton. Then either before or after weaving, that's impregnated with polyester resin and "cured" at around 100'C for about an hour -- which sets the resin -- then "post cured" at around 80'C for about 12 hours, which presumably makes it still more stable. This gives the fabric the strength of the cotton, and adds the chemical resistance of fully-cured polyester, completely protecting the cotton. There aren't a lot of reagents that would chew through that quickly, so one would have a decent chance of getting the lab coat off before the chemical got to one's clothing, or oneself. Regular polyester/cotton blends -- I think -- are spun into thread out of a combination of the two fibres, so there isn't the effect of the two materials protecting each other.

Back when I was a lab TA for first-year university students, a major part of the "your first day in a chemistry lab" orientation was the safety stuff: knowing the locations of fire extinguishers, eye wash stations, emergency showers, and such. The importance of wearing a lab coat and safety goggles or side shields any time one was around chemicals, because even if you weren't working with them, your neighbour might be, or there might be some unexpected reaction waiting to happen from a mistake that someone had made sometime previously. "Because some of the chemicals you'll be working with, and some of the things just sitting out on your bench at all times -- you see those bottles on the little stands in the middle of the benches? -- can hurt you pretty badly. If you get them on you, wash them off immediately. If you spill one of them on your lab coat, take it off right away. If you think something nasty has gotten into your clothing, or you get a bad spill on your skin, get under the safety shower, yank the lever, and get your clothes off. I'm not trying to be crude here, and I'm not joking about this. Which is worse, a bit of embarrassment, or permanent scarring? I personally would prefer that you not get injured; the paperwork is a pain."

Thanks to a bit better Googling and some help from MIT, I found the material again. Nomex. Synthetic, has excellent heat, chemical, and radiation resistance.

[danielxcutter]

I guess that's possible in principle, but I don't see any reason for an alchemy cauldron to be so much worse in any aspect than a regular cauldron; much like you can definitely cook in a standardly equipped chemistry lab, it's just inefficient.

As long as alchemy frequently involves not burning stuff, heating stuff, and control over the temperature and time, and cleanliness/purity of ingredients: you're have the tools you need.

Cooking is just chemistry with edible stuff.

It's probably still inefficient though.

[bunsen_h]

Thanks to a bit better Googling and some help from MIT, I found the material again. Nomex. Synthetic, has excellent heat, chemical, and radiation resistance.

Hmm. Excellent heat resistance, and resistant to most organic solvents. But not at all good against concentrated acids, bases, and salts, so it would depend on the hazards one anticipates from where it's being used. I don't think that I've ever been in a situation where a lab coat would have been useful in protecting me from high temperatures, but things like concentrated acids and bases were pretty common. On the other hand, I've been around several lab fires (one or two of which were my fault), so burn resistance could have been important if things had turned out differently. There was one incident where having a heat/burn-resistant lab coat might have been useful only to the extent of saving the lab coat, if I'd been unlucky.

[Jasdoif]

Thanks to a bit better Googling and some help from MIT, I found the material again. Nomex. Synthetic, has excellent heat, chemical, and radiation resistance.

Hmm. Excellent heat resistance, and resistant to most organic solvents. But not at all good against concentrated acids, bases, and salts, so it would depend on the hazards one anticipates from where it's being used. I don't think that I've ever been in a situation where a lab coat would have been useful in protecting me from high temperatures, but things like concentrated acids and bases were pretty common. On the other hand, I've been around several lab fires (one or two of which were my fault), so burn resistance could have been important if things had turned out differently. There was one incident where having a heat/burn-resistant lab coat might have been useful only to the extent of saving the lab coat, if I'd been unlucky.

So we're thinking....what, alternating layers of Nomex and some sort of buffer solution gel?

[Metastachydium]

an orchid I accidentally baked

[With an appropriately abject abhorrence.] You are a monster!

[Arathorne]

Nomex. Synthetic, has excellent heat, chemical, and radiation resistance.

Not surprising as I recall when Dupont developed Nomex to make driving and safety suits for auto racing. I raced before the days of racing suits, and I know how much drivers and crews were happy to see this safety advancement.

[bunsen_h]

So we're thinking....what, alternating layers of Nomex and some sort of buffer solution gel?

Two fabric layers -- one of Nomex, the other of the polyester-impregnated cotton. The Nomex one does heat resistance, and also tear resistance; it's related to Kevlar. The polyester/cotton is resistant to acids and bases. Both of them are good against organic solvents.

[KorvinStarmast]

Not surprising as I recall when Dupont developed Nomex to make driving and safety suits for auto racing. I raced before the days of racing suits, and I know how much drivers and crews were happy to see this safety advancement.

See also military issue flight suits. They were already Nomex when I started, I think the change came in the 60's. Nomex is a flash retardant; calling it 'fire resistant' may be a slight overstatement.

[Jay R]

It could also be that all the bacteria and things that cause rotting are also dead, in which case the planet would remain green without anything green growing recently.

I repeat: "That's usually an indication of life." [Emphasis added.]

Finding an exception does not refute my statement.

More importantly, if the author deliberately added large green areas on a globe, which is more likely? That he intended to show that all the bacteria and things that cause rotting are also dead, or that he intended to show that life exists there?

[Tecatin]

Heyo, just finally caught up with the comic after reading it for the first time a few weeks ago, anyone else wondering why our half of a halfling hasn't seemed to memory wipe Ochul and Lien before going to take out the order? (Also seems like that wand she has in issue 1229 was a wand of spell storing? Maybe with some charm spells and telekinesis? or are there magic options for rogues?)

[Squire Doodad]

Heyo, just finally caught up with the comic after reading it for the first time a few weeks ago, anyone else wondering why our half of a halfling hasn't seemed to memory wipe Ochul and Lien before going to take out the order? (Also seems like that wand she has in issue 1229 was a wand of spell storing? Maybe with some charm spells and telekinesis? or are there magic options for rogues?)

Presumably Serini's conversation with Lien happened at the same time as Roy's conversation with Durkon.

[Dion]

anyone else wondering why our half of a halfling hasn't seemed to memory wipe Ochul and Lien before going to take out the order?

Maybe the potion takes a few days to brew?

Or maybe Serini just isn’t very organized. She’s spent her whole life wandering around and going in adventures. She’s never had to write and follow a to-do list.

[Squire Doodad]

Maybe the potion takes a few days to brew?

Or maybe Serini just isn’t very organized. She’s spent her whole life wandering around and going in adventures. She’s never had to write and follow a to-do list.

Oh wait, the question was about why she didn't make Lien and O-chul drink it before she left.

I'm assuming she either wants to do it all in one sitting, or the actual potion takes some time to brew and she'll leave them all shackled and put a "scrabble piece of Antimagic Field" on Durkon and V.

[Tecatin]

Oh wait, the question was about why she didn't make Lien and O-chul drink it before she left.

I'm assuming she either wants to do it all in one sitting, or the actual potion takes some time to brew and she'll leave them all shackled and put a "scrabble piece of Antimagic Field" on Durkon and V.

That would make sense (although I'd argue its dangerous as leaving a bunch of people in one place gives them a chance to plan) and I'm eager to see how it plays out. Wonder if Roy's sword ends up getting them out of there in the case of an antimagic field, seeing as he was able to get through that force field the high priest conjured, or they can convince her to give them one last shot at stopping Xykon.

[Squire Doodad]

That would make sense (although I'd argue its dangerous as leaving a bunch of people in one place gives them a chance to plan) and I'm eager to see how it plays out. Wonder if Roy's sword ends up getting them out of there in the case of an antimagic field, seeing as he was able to get through that force field the high priest conjured, or they can convince her to give them one last shot at stopping Xykon.

That was an Antilife Shell, which stops living things. It has no impact on magic, unless it's a spell that flings leaves or something.
Though I don't think an anti-magic field would stop the sword from existing, whether or not its enchantments are affected.

[danielxcutter]

I just think she wants to take down the Order quickly before they do anything she can’t hide from Team Evil.

[TuringTest]

Oh wait, the question was about why she didn't make Lien and O-chul drink it before she left.

I'm assuming she either wants to do it all in one sitting, or the actual potion takes some time to brew and she'll leave them all shackled and put a "scrabble piece of Antimagic Field" on Durkon and V.

My take is that she want to feed them with the potion, and then abandon them immediately, far away in the wasteland.

This way, when the effects of the potion wear off, they'd be disoriented but think that they've explored everything. But that wouldn't work if the potion wears off while they're still chained in that room.

[Fyraltari]

My take is that she want to feed them with the potion, and then abandon them immediately, far away in the wasteland.

This way, when the effects of the potion wear off, they'd be disoriented but think that they've explored everything. But that wouldn't work if the potion wears off while they're still chained in that room.

Right, and she probably wants the Order neutralized as soon as possible to reduce their odds of messing it up.

[CountDVB]

I suspect that if she tries pointing out their mistakes, someone is gonna figure out how Xykon even knows about them and will turn it on her.

I suspect it will be Belkar who does it.

[Fyraltari]

I suspect that if she tries pointing out their mistakes, someone is gonna figure out how Xykon even knows about them and will turn it on her.

I suspect it will be Belkar who does it.

I don't see how "you weren't avle to fight Xykon" is going to help convince her that Xykon must be fought.

[Peelee]

I suspect that if she tries pointing out their mistakes, someone is gonna figure out how Xykon even knows about them and will turn it on her.

I suspect it will be Belkar who does it.

I would be very surprised if anyone in the Order, who have zero knowledge of Serini's diary, manage to deduce that Xykon learned of the other gates by reading Serini's diary.

Least of all Belkar.