The Whale Wrestler, an AMF Grappler

[Anthrowhale]

The Whale Wrestler is capable of winning a grapple with any monster manual creature. The key to this build is getting a high grapple bonus inside an AntiMagic Field which shuts off magical defeats to grapple such as Freedom of Movement and Teleport. I'm definitely curious about anyone with ideas for how to create an improved AMF grapple build.

This is V6 using Black Blood Cultist, Fierce Grappler, Druid, Stonegrind Wrestling, and a bit of magic with suggestions from Elves, ShurikVch, Khatoblepas, and Zarvistic.

Spoiler: Amphibious Half-Ogre Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale

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Anthopomorphic Baleen Whale (Savage Species) provides large size, a healthy +8 to strength, and a tail attack with LA+0 and 3 racial hit dice.

The Half-Ogre (Dragon #313) template provides an extra +4 to strength and is LA+0 when applied to large creatures.

The Amphibious template provides the aquatic subtype and the amphibious quality with LA+0.

Altogether, the character starts at ECL 3 with large size and a strength of 30 making a formidable grappler.

Classes are fairly straightforward although with some unfamiliar choices or for unfamiliar reasons.

Spoiler: ABW 3/Druid 1/Barbarian 1/Black Blood Cultist 2/Scaled Horror 1/Exoticist 1/Black Blood Cultist 6/Fierce Grappler 5

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Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale comes with 3 monstrous Humanoid hit dice, which at least grant full BAB.

Huntsman Druid provides Track, a prerequisite for Black Blood Cultist and via Urban Companion[Octopus(Stormwrack)] a +3 bonus to grapple checks in an AMF. It also provides a minor bonus to AC based on wisdom.

Barbarian provides Rage, which works inside an Antimagic Field and is prerequisite for Black Blood Cultist. The City Brawler variant (Dragon #349) also provides Improved Unarmed Strike, a prerequisite for Improved Grapple, Black Blood Cultist, Fierce Grappler, and Stonegrind Wrestling.

Black Blood Cultist provides access to Hide and Move Silently as class skills for Scaled Horror while advancing Barbarian Rage. At level 2 it provides Improved Grapple as a bonus feat for a +4 grapple bonus. Black Blood Cultist 5 provides "Stranglehold" = move action coup de grace. Black Blood Cultist 8 provides "Savage Grapple" = damage with all natural weapons for each grapple check.

Scaled Horror 1 provides access to Improved Grab for all natural weapons against creatures your size (large) or smaller. Qualification for Scaled Horror is why the amphibious template was taken.

Exoticist 1 provides proficiency with Scorpion Claws (providing a +4 grapple bonus) and Power Attack, a prerequisite for Fierce Grappler and Stonegrind Wrestling.

Fierce Grappler (Dragon #295) 2 provides "Great Grappler" which enables hold and pin against size+2 creatures (i.e. Colossal or less with Stonegrind Wrestling). Fierce Grappler 5 also provides "Choke out" which is a fort save DC+grapple damage dealt the round of a pin or unconscious for 1d3 rounds.

There are good feats at every level which improve grappling or improve your ability to initiate a grapple via improved grab.

Spoiler: Feats

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1. Endurance //Prerequisite for Stonegrind Wrestling.
3. Great Fortitude //Prerequisite for Stonegrind Wrestling.
3. Multiattack //+3 to hit with nonprimary natural weapons
Druid 1: Track // Required for Black Blood Cultist
Barbarian 1: Improved Unarmed Strike //Required for Black Blood Cultist, Fierce Grappler, Improved Grapple, Stonegrind Wrestling
6. Snow Tiger Berserker //Pounce with light weapons (Natural attacks are light)
Black Blood Cultist 2: Improved Grapple // +4 to grapple checks
Exoticist 1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency(scorpion claws) //from Sandstorm +4 to grapple checks
Exoticist 1: Power Attack //Required for Fierce Grappler, Stonegrind Wrestling
Not a feat: Stonegrind Wrestling (Dragon #303 page 58) allows you to count as one size larger for grappling checks (i.e. effectively Huge)
9. Multigrab //+10 to grapple checks with a natural attack to hold with a limb.
Goring Horn: Improved Bull Rush
12. Greater Multigrab //grapple with a limb to hold for free.
15. Stunning Fist // Required for Fierce Grappler
18. Battle Jump // Double damage for improved grabs and adds 4 to the first grapple check when activated.

Improved Grab works with natural attacks, so maximizing the number of natural attacks is very helpful. This is most easily done via grafts.

Spoiler: Natural Attacks

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Tail (1d4+8(Str/2) ABW)
2xClaw (1d8+8(Str) Rending Claw, 10K gp total)
4xTentacle (1d6+19(Str) Aboleth Tentacles placed below and above the arm/forelimb, 200K gp total)
Gore (2d6+8(Str/2) Goring Horn, 8K gp)
Bite (2d8+8(Str/2) Grasping Mandibles, 15K gp)
Tongue (0 damage, but Fort 17 or paralyze as a touch attack, 24K gp)

Black Blood Cultist also provides a Rend special attack which deals an extra 2xclaw damage.

Altogether, this allows for 10 improved grabs per round (and on a charge attack) at up to +35 to hit and up to a +55 grapple bonus inside of an AMF.

Spoiler: Strength and Grapple

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The strength is 47=18(base)+8(ABW)+4(Half-Ogre)+2(Silthilar Muscles, 110K gp)+5(inherent)+4(levels)+4(Rage)+2(Deformity From Warp Touch BoVD page 31 with the 1-in-50 chance expected after 50 days using an Amulet of Second Chances, 40K gp)
For Aboleth Tentacles, the strength is 51 due to an untyped +4 bonus

While raging with a strength of 47 using the Hauling Back graft the carry capacity is 49920lbs as a heavy load or 249600lbs dragging. Since large or smaller creatures essentially always weigh a small fraction of this, up to 10 creatures can be grappled at the same time.

The grapple bonus is 53=16(BAB)+18(Strength)+4(Scorpion Claws)+4(Improved Grapple)+3(Octopus Familiar)+8(effectively Huge with Stonegrind Wrestling)
For Aboleth Tentacles, the grapple bonus is +55 due to extra strength.

The Whale Wrestler works best in a party where a wizard can cast an Antimagic Field on it, so investing in some pearls of power to keep one up throughout the adventuring day makes sense. If forced to operate solo, there are a number of ways for the Whale Wrestler to use Antimagic.

Spoiler: Antimagic Methods

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Antimagic Torc (Underdark page 73, 25K) for almost 2 hours/day
Bulwark of Antimagic (Draconomicon): AMF 1/day CL 11; 27580 gp
Magebane Manacles (Arms&Equipment page 134, 132K) provides an always-on solution although it may just function like Antimagic Aura (for a creature and it's items) rather than Antimagic Field (with a 10' radius).
Antimagic Shackles (Book of Exalted Deeds page 116, 132K) provides an always-on AMF with a 5' radius, enough to cover either the whale wrestler or part of the whale wrestler and part of an adjacent creature, but not both.
Third Eye beholder graft (Fiend Folio): CL 13 AMF in shape of 50' cone, 3/day; 165000 gp
Dust of Negation (Lords of Madness): 1-use AMF in 10' spread for 2 minutes (or 2 rounds - in windy conditions); 3300 gp
(Many of these are from ShurikVch)

The Whale Wrestler has multiple combat options available---capture, debuff, damage, and kill.

The Whale Wrestler can reliably impose grappled-in-an-AMF for up to 10 large-or-smaller opponents in the first round of combat by using Snow Tiger Berserker to pounce and Scaled Horror 1's improved grab with 10 natural attacks. For example, a Balor has an AC of 35 implying natural attacks triggering improved grab hit 95% of the time, and the Balor's grapple modifier of +36 implies the Whale Wrestler succeeds 95% of the time for an overall success rate of ~90%. They also weigh only 4500 lbs, so you can greater multigrab 3 and run (or fly) around the battlefield unimpeded with a light load. Note though that the greater multigrab bonus only applies to holds, so other grapple checks are more difficult. A grapple bonus of 35 however remains competitive with the Balor's 36.

Alternatively, you can grapple one colossal opponent at the cost of being grappled yourself. That's two sizes greater than normal due to the combination of Fierce Grappler 2's "Great Grappler" ability and Stonegrind Wrestling. For either conventionally grappled (with a full grapple+55) or multigrabbed opponents (with an effective grapple of +35), the Whale Wrestler can use Black Blood Cultist 8's Savage Grapple to inflict ~182.5 damage. This can be done up to 4 times per round at a cumulative -5 to the grapple check on iteratives, potentially inflicting ~730 damage. Note that when using limbs to grapple, savage grapple damage is plausibly reduced by the used limb. This damage can be increased further by using Battle Jump to hit with each natural attack for double damage and then following up with 4 grapple checks for ~1095 damage.

It's also possible to outright kill creatures using a combination of Fierce Grappler 5 which provides a fort-or-unconscious based at a DC of 15+grapple damage (i.e. DC ~197.5) and Black Blood Cultist 5 which provides a move action coup de grace with bite attacks.

Covering some different angles: Unseelie Fey, or a Feathered Wings graft allow adding flight and there is a Silthilar graft which provides fast healing.

The grapple bonuses of monsters can become extremely large due to size, hit dice, and strength. Nevertheless, the Whale Wrestler can compete with all of them.

Spoiler: Grappling the big boys

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The standard opponents with access to freedom of movement and a large grapple bonus are dragons with access to the cleric list. Looking through the common ones at CR 19 or 20, we see:

1. Very Old Blue +49
2. Old Red +52
3. Ancient Brass +50
4. Very Old Bronze +49
5. Very Old Copper +47
6. Old Gold +55
7. Old Silver +46

So a grapple bonus of +55 in an AMF rivals the best of these (and, of course, protects against breath weapons). That's probably good enough, particularly considering that you can situationally use Battle Jump for an extra +4 bonus on the initial grapple check and the large amount of damage that savage grapple puts out.

Much larger grapple bonuses exist. The Tarrasque leads here, but other CR 20-or-less colossal creatures include:

1. Colossal Baleen Whale: 59 (CR 15)
2. Colossal Cachalot Whale: 59 (CR 16)
3. Colossal Kraken: 73
4. Colossal Purple Worm: 70
5. Colossal Nightcrawler: 54
6. Colossal Roc: 68

These opponents commonly lack access to Freedom of Movement. Against such opponents, a non-AMF approach using a few additional magic items is helpful.

• Belt of Giant Strength (+6 enhancement bonus to strength, for a +3 grapple increase, 36K gp)
• Gloves of Titan's Grip (MIC, +8 enhancement to grapple checks, 7K gp, may want several)
• Ring of Growth (Savage Species page 54, 18Kgp, may want several) increases size category and adds 4 to strength.

Altogether these increase the maximum grapple bonus to 72 which competes with everything except the Tarrasque.

To handle a Tarrasque, a friendly caster could add a few buffs.

• Investiture of the Barbed Devil (Cleric/Wizard 6) for a +4 profane bonus to grapple checks for minutes/level.
• Investiture of the Pit Fiend (Cleric/Wizard 9) increases base attack bonus by 4 for minutes/level.
• Aura of Vitality (Druid 7) increases the strength by 4 as a morale bonus for rounds/level.
• Fuse Arms (Cleric/Wizard 2) increases strength by 8 while fusing the tentacles and arms into a single pair. for 10 minutes/level.

Adding these provides a grapple bonus of 86, capable of competing with (and typically even beating) the Tarrasque (grapple bonus +81).

It is possible to get much larger grapple bonuses via various means to getting personal-only spells cast on the Whale Wrestler.

Epic monsters can have grapple bonuses larger than 100, however there are several tricks which become available in an epic build as well, making it possible to remain competitive against most monsters.

Spoiler: Into Epic

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In terms of class, War Hulk stands out, since it gives a +20 strength bonus over 10 levels and epic base attack rules imply you still get an effective +5 base attack. Altogether, this is worth +15 to grapple checks by level 30.

In terms of feats, Legendary Wrestler gives a flat +10 bonus to grapple checks.

In considering this build, we ran into several corner cases of grappling not covered by the (somewhat notorious) grappling rules or the Rules of the Game articles.

Spoiler: Grappling corner cases

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This is v3, particularly with help from Elves

Q: If you use the limb hold option ("use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent") with improved grab, can you use grapple options afterwards?
A: Yes. The text for a limb hold is ambiguous about whether or not this is just a 'hold' or grappling, but text elsewhere indicates that grappling is occurring. For example, Multigrab says:

When grappling an opponent with the part of your body that made the attack...

Q: When using a limb hold option with improved grab, how many grapple checks can the creature initiate on held opponents?
A: It depends on the option used, but for grapple checks used in place of an attack, as many as base attack bonus allows (up to 4) each round are possible.

Some of these actions take the place of an attack... If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

Q: When using improved grab, which grapple checks cause damage?
A: Only grapple checks for causing damage. Improved Grab in the d20srd is ambiguous, but the Rules Compendium says:

Whenever the creature makes a successful grapple check to deal damage, it deals the damage indicated for the natural weapon that it used to make the improved grab...

as an alternative to unarmed strike damage.

Q: When using the (Greater) Multigrab feat, which grapple checks are improved by 10 (or 20)?
A: Only grapple checks to maintain a hold. This means using other grapple options when using a limb hold are substantially more difficult.

Q: Does a grapple check roll of '1' result in automatic failure? Or '20' in more damage?
A: Yes. The rules say it is 'like a melee attack roll' without stating that it is an attack roll and refers to it as an attack bonus. The Rules Compendium is more explicit that the only difference is the size modifier.

A grapple check is like a melee attack roll, but it’s modified by your grapple modifier..

So the only difference mechanically is the size modifier. As a consequence, there is a 5% chance that grapple checks to hold fail.

Q: Is Black Blood Cultist's "Savage Grapple", applied after every successful grapple check? Or is it an option for if you are in a grapple?
A: The wording does not establish that this is a new action, so it must be modifying action.

"...you deal damage as if you had hit with all your natural weapons ... on a successful grapple check."

implies that savage grapple damage is applied after successful grapple checks which would apply damage.

Q: What kind of action is Black Blood Cultist's Savage Grapple?
A: It is not an action, it is a modification to the damage done when inflicting damage via a grapple check.

Q: If you use Black Blood Cultist's "Savage Grapple" on a grappled opponent while holding some other opponent with an improved grab limb, do you apply the natural attack damage from the holding limb?
A: No? Savage Grapple says "_all_ your natural weapons" while Improved Grab says "...can use its _remaining_ attacks against _other_ opponents." There is a rules conflict in which a DM could decide either way. The more intuitive and conservative choice is "no".

Q: If an opponent is grappled by a limb using improved grab, what happens when using a full attack action?
A: Every other natural attack can be executed against an opponent and you can perform iterative grapple attacks as well.

Q: When pinning an opponent, can you use Black Blood Cultist's "Savage Grapple"?
A: Yes, in general. Savage Grapple modifies the damage done when inflicting damage with a grapple.

Variants:
For one more grapple, you could use Duskblade 1, Practiced Spellcaster, and Obtain Familiar with 2 flaws instead of Druid. An even higher grapple bonus is possible using straight barbarian (or Runescarred Berserker), although that loses Black Blood Cultist synergy.

Warblade 1 provides Iron Heart Surge (=end effects/conditions in an AMF), Steel Wind (= 2 attacks->improved grabs on a standard action), and Mountain Hammer (=deal damage->improved grab bypassing any hardness/DR). If you can pick up an L3 stance at first level, Crushing Weight of the Mountain adds ~37 points of damage to every improved grab attack. Otherwise, this costs a Martial Stance feat. This could be taken instead of Exoticist at the cost of Snowtiger Berserker and Battle Jump or with 2 flaws.

Multiattack and Improved Multiattack (+5 to hit with secondary natural weapons) and Knowledge Devotion (+1 or more to hit and damage) are obviously useful feats if they are available.

The half-Goristro template acquired through a savage progression when level buyoff rules in effect could allow a huge character. By carefully alternating a savage progression and level buyoff, you should be able to acquire a level adjustment and pay it off every 3 class levels. However, this involves DM adjudication (around how a half-goristro savage progression works) and level buyoff rules to be in effect. Also, if you are using level buyoff, a savage progression half-goristro half-ogre half-minotaur goliath works better since it has a +36 strength modifier with powerful build and no racial hit dice. A half-goristro half ogre anthropomorphic baleen whale has only a +28 strength modifier.

[Khatoblepas]

The Antimagic Shackles in the Book of Exalted Deeds allow you to have an always on Antimagic Field (out to 5ft around you, but if it overlaps anyone, they're affected, and since grappling puts you in their space, it's useful without creating a dead zone your party can't cast spells into) for just 132,000gp. Since you'll be in an AMF, you won't really need many other magic items.

Instead of 10 additional levels of Barbarian, consider Black Blood Cultist, which advances Rage and gives you Savage Grapple, allowing you to hit with all your natural weapons with one grapple check. You already have Track and Improved Unarmed Strike, so the prerequisites will be nice and breezy for you.

[ShurikVch]

so there is no problem with using greater multigrab to keep 5 of them locked down while otherwise running around the battlefield.

Well, firstly: I wouldn't call moving at half speed "running"
And secondly: how the heck you're grappling more than one opponent at once (excluding possibility they grappled you first)?

The Antimagic Shackles in the Book of Exalted Deeds allow you to have an always on Antimagic Field (out to 5ft around you, but if it overlaps anyone, they're affected, and since grappling puts you in their space, it's useful without creating a dead zone your party can't cast spells into) for just 132,000gp. Since you'll be in an AMF, you won't really need many other magic items.

AMF of Antimagic Shackles is 5'; Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale, being Large, take 10'; AMF would be completely inside them - thus, mostly useless


To not be "all the critique, no suggestions": Fierce Grappler PrC (Dragon #295) at 2ns level able to hold and pin creatures up to two size categories larger than the character

[Khatoblepas]

AMF of Antimagic Shackles is 5'; Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale, being Large, take 10'; AMF would be completely inside them - thus, mostly useless

Doesn't matter, when you're grappling someone, they are inside your space, and thus, within your AMF:

To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space.

and

When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space.

Even if the AMF only affects literally the 4 squares that make up your space, you're pulling people into that space.

[daremetoidareyo]

Consider VOP?

You can’t use magic anyway....

[ShurikVch]

Doesn't matter, when you're grappling someone, they are inside your space, and thus, within your AMF:

and

Even if the AMF only affects literally the 4 squares that make up your space, you're pulling people into that space.

The primary purpose of AMF there is to deny the FoM usage; if FoM is already in effect (or activates contingently), then you wouldn't be able to "pull the opponent into your space" - your grapple attempt would auto-fail

[Maat Mons]

Maybe be a Cleric with Initiate of Mystra so being in an Antimagic Field doesn't hinder you? And convince the other party members to play Clerics with Initiate of Mystra so the Field doesn't hinder them either?

[Anthrowhale]

The Antimagic Shackles in the Book of Exalted Deeds allow you to have an always on Antimagic Field (out to 5ft around you, but if it overlaps anyone, they're affected, and since grappling puts you in their space, it's useful without creating a dead zone your party can't cast spells into) for just 132,000gp. Since you'll be in an AMF, you won't really need many other magic items.

AMF of Antimagic Shackles is 5'; Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale, being Large, take 10'; AMF would be completely inside them - thus, mostly useless

It's a 5' radius which exactly covers an ABW which has a 10' facing. It's good, but the 'cover yourself or cover your enemy aspect isn't quite as good as a 10' radius AMF.

Instead of 10 additional levels of Barbarian, consider Black Blood Cultist, which advances Rage and gives you Savage Grapple, allowing you to hit with all your natural weapons with one grapple check. You already have Track and Improved Unarmed Strike, so the prerequisites will be nice and breezy for you.

The -3 to grapple which BBC 10 gives you relative to Barbarian is somewhat painful, but it might be worthwhile if you are soloing.

Well, firstly: I wouldn't call moving at half speed "running"
And secondly: how the heck you're grappling more than one opponent at once (excluding possibility they grappled you first)?

It's using Improved Grab

The creature has the option to ... simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it ... is not considered grappled itself...

Hence, normal movement is allowed.

To not be "all the critique, no suggestions": Fierce Grappler PrC (Dragon #295) at 2ns level able to hold and pin creatures up to two size categories larger than the character

Fierce Grappler looks plausibly interesting. Losing out on the strength bonus of Barbarian 11 could be worthwhile. The prereq feats are a bit painful, but maybe that could be handled with some levels of other classes.

[Elves]

Spirit bear totem at barbarian 1 grants improved grab in exchange for fast movement. No need for scaled horror.

Instead of taking duskblade 3, why not take ranger to 4 and use the urban companion ACF to save a feat? That also gives you PA to qualify for fierce grappler via strong arm style.

To not be "all the critique, no suggestions": Fierce Grappler PrC (Dragon #295) at 2ns level able to hold and pin creatures up to two size categories larger than the character

Seems like a no brainer then.

Instead of 10 additional levels of Barbarian, consider Black Blood Cultist, which advances Rage and gives you Savage Grapple

Neat ability since US is a natural weapon, and obviously good when combined with the repeating damage of Improved Grab.

That would give you monstrous humanoid 3/ranger 4/barbarian 1/fierce grappler 2/black blood cultist 10 which gets you greater rage at 20th.

OTOH, in favor of runescarred berserker 9-10, native AMF seems like a big plus if that's your whole strategy.

[Anthrowhale]

Maybe be a Cleric with Initiate of Mystra so being in an Antimagic Field doesn't hinder you?

"Cleric Initiate of Mystra can do it better" seems like a universal truth. I've avoided that here just for style reasons.

Spirit bear totem at barbarian 1 grants improved grab in exchange for fast movement. No need for scaled horror.

I believe all the spirit totems are Su, and Scaled Horror's Improved Grab is better than the default because it applies to same size rather than size-1.

Instead of taking duskblade 3, why not take ranger to 4 and use the urban companion ACF to save a feat? That also gives you PA (or free EWP if you later dip warblade).

This sounds good.

Seems like a no brainer then.

The 'choke out' ability at Fierce Grappler 5 is also pretty solid---Fortitude save at DC 15+grapple damage or unconscious for 1d3 rounds.

[Elves]

I believe all the spirit totems are Su, and Scaled Horror's Improved Grab is better than the default because it applies to same size rather than size-1.

Good catch.

The 'choke out' ability at Fierce Grappler 5 is also pretty solid---Fortitude save at DC 15+grapple damage or unconscious for 1d3 rounds.

That's a nice combo with Black Blood cultist, since their feature that stacks grapple damage will make the Fort DC unmakeable.

Drain away the 2 excess RHD and you can go:

humanoid 1/ranger 4/barbarian 1/scaled horror 1/black blood cultist 8/fierce grappler 5

If RHD draining is too cheesy, humanoid 3/ranger 2/barbarian 1/scaled horror 1/black blood cultist 8/fierce grappler 5 and either skip the familiar or find some other way to get it.

[Khatoblepas]

Drain away the 2 excess RHD and you can go:

humanoid 1/ranger 4/barbarian 1/scaled horror 1/black blood cultist 8/fierce grappler 5

If RHD draining is too cheesy, humanoid 3/ranger 2/barbarian 1/scaled horror 1/black blood cultist 8/fierce grappler 5 and either skip the familiar or find some other way to get it.

If you drain away the rhd and get that 4th level of ranger, you get to drop obtain familiar and take an octopus urban companion instead! I think that'll give you your +3 to grapple checks without having to load up on arcane spellcasting you can't use.

[Elves]

The second build is if RHD drain is off the table.

Arguably, the Black Blood cultist synergy there isn't necessary (and 8 levels is probably too high a price). At DC 15 + damage, it's not hard to get a DC few people will be able to make within AMF. And if your main KO strategy is going to be knock unconscious with that ability and coup de grace, the higher grapple damage from Black Blood cultist is devalued.

Unfortunately, subbing in runescarred berserker 8 leaves you 1 level short of AMF. It does get you greater rage. You could go runescarred 9-10 and just dip wizard or sorc 1 to get the familiar I guess.

[daremetoidareyo]

Can you shape soulmeld soulspark for alertness in an AMF

[Anthrowhale]

Black Blood Cultist and Fierce Grappler have a number of synergies. BBC gives lots of damage with a grapple check, FC turns that into unconscious, and then BBC provides a move-action coup de grace. The difficulty here is that BBC 8 + FC 5 + Scaled Horror 1 is 14 levels. Adding in ABW's 3HD leaves only 3 levels left.... I think I see a way to make it work, and the loss of 3 from the grapple check is probably worth the synergy.

[Kazyan]

The Balhannoth (MMIV, p.15) is worth mentioning here. If you can turn into 14 HD monsters via whatever method you prefer, you can use the Balhannoth's Antimagic Grapple ability. However, as written, that ability doesn't suppress active spells on the target, so it's not useful for just deleting FoM. (If that FoM comes from a magic item, though, it's gone.)

EDIT: If you expect to come across a Ring of Freedom of Movement, you could try investing heavily in Sleight of Hand to pluck off small magic items like that.

[Anthrowhale]

Can you shape soulmeld soulspark for alertness in an AMF

All soulmelds are suppressed in an AMF, right?

[daremetoidareyo]

All soulmelds are suppressed in an AMF, right?

I don’t know and it was easier to just float the idea than to look it up!

[Elves]

and then BBC provides a move-action coup de grace.

Yeah, that's beautiful.

I think I see a way to make it work, and the loss of 3 from the grapple check is probably worth the synergy.

Do you mean the stub I mentioned here or do you see a better way?
In the stub at the bottom of that post you can just swap rgr 2nd with wiz 1st (fighter feat variant). Grants Power Attack just like the ranger level and also grants familiar.
RHD 3/rgr1/wiz1/bbn1/scaled horror 1/black blood cultist 8/fierce grappler 5.

[Anthrowhale]

Updated the OP. Grapple check declines to 49 and strength declines to 45 (boo), but you get the killer Improved Grab + Savage Grapple + Choke Out + Stranglehold combo.

Do you mean the stub I mentioned here or do you see a better way?
In the stub at the bottom of that post you can just swap rgr 2nd with wiz 1st (fighter feat variant). Grants Power Attack just like the ranger level and also grants familiar.
RHD 3/rgr1/wiz1/bbn1/scaled horror 1/black blood cultist 8/fierce grappler 5.

I was thinking of something slightly different, but it's more feat intensive (requires 2 flaws). This one does not require flaws because it saves 3 feats relative to what I came up with, at the cost of a 1 lower grapple check. I'll mention it.

[daremetoidareyo]

Can we somehow self generate the continuous amf? Does ancestral relic do it?

[Anthrowhale]

The Balhannoth (MMIV, p.15) is worth mentioning here. If you can turn into 14 HD monsters via whatever method you prefer, you can use the Balhannoth's Antimagic Grapple ability.

The low strength ("only" 28) and item suppression makes this form appear difficult to use for effective grappling. Still, I'm sure you could manage between persistent bite of the werebear and persistent draconic polymorph. I've been avoiding spellcaster based solutions just for style reasons.

EDIT: If you expect to come across a Ring of Freedom of Movement, you could try investing heavily in Sleight of Hand to pluck off small magic items like that.

The AMF approach avoids needing both a high dexterity and a high strength.

[Elves]

This PrC synergy is a nice discovery. Good thread.

Do you have a build name for it?

This has an attack of only +33 and a grapple of only +48, but it requires 3 fewer feats (removing Practice Spellcaster and Obtain Familiar while changing Scribe Scroll for Power Attack).

IMO, +1 to hit and grapple is less valuable than 3 feats, flaws or no.

[Zarvistic]

Seeing this thread made me think about some way to defeat freedom of movement and while amf is probably better, still wanted to mention steal spell effect from the spellthief. It is capped by spellthief level + charisma, but I've seen you assume pretty high stats in these threads so perhaps something like 40-50 would be fair. That wouldn't require many spellthief levels I think and it would allow for some spellcasting too, especially with trickster acf. Could also use the charisma for something like a cleric dip and divine fury for a decent grapple bonus and perhaps start the fight with a whirling blade to remove freedom of movement and initiate the grapple with improved grab from afar. That last part also nice to counter anticipate teleportation with if that would be a concern.

Anyway, probably doesn't help much for an amf build, but figured might be worth considering if you hadn't yet.

[Psyren]

All soulmelds are suppressed in an AMF, right?

I don’t know and it was easier to just float the idea than to look it up!

Soulmeld-Magic Transparency (MoI 52) is indeed the default rule.

[Gruftzwerg]

So you think it is a good idea to beat magic users with a AMF focused grappling build?
Why not go for a grappling caster?^^

I would go for a Changeling Sorcerer or maybe even a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer if you want the extra HP in the early lvls. A small spell selection is enough to maintain the build.

May I introduce you to the SoRappLing (Sorcerer Grappler Changeling)

Sorcerer (or SBS) 5 / Incantrix 10 / Recaster 5 (lvling order can be changed to some degree)

5th lvl Sorcerer ACF: Domain Access (War)
Gives access to Divine Power that becomes a Sorcerer Spell known. This enables it for potential abuse with Arcane Fusion to bypass the 1/day limitation of Domain spells. Or we can Persist + extend it up to 48h duration.

Feats: (* Bonus from Incantrix)
Racial Emulation
Draconic Reservoir (Enables "Greater Draconic Rite of Passage" for +1 Sorcerer casting to compensate the loss from Recaster)
Quicken Spell
Selective Spell*
Widen Spell*
Extend Spell*
Persistant Spell*
Enspell Familiar
Rapid Metamagic
Sanctum Spell
Iron Will (prerequisite for Incantrix)

Spell Recommendation:
1st: Color Spray
2nd: Fearsome Grapple, Wings of Cover, Mirror Image
3rd: Fly, Ferocity of Sanguine Rage
4th: Polymorph, Greater Invisibility
5th: Arcane Fusion,
6th: AMF, Contingency
7th:
8th: Greater Arcane Fusion,
9th:

Recaster will add Giant Size & Body Oustide Body from the Wu-jen spell list to our Sorcerer Spells known.

The build can abuse the (Greater) Arcane Fusion trick (with Sanctuary Spell) to cast infinite 1st (1-4th) lvl spells with a single (G)AF cast. This can be abused to use all buff spells up to 4th lvl in a single round. Further infinite Color Spray ensures save buffing rounds against most enemies without SR.

Selective Spell AMF ensures that we are the only one that is having fun with magic here (most of the times). The class features of Recaster enable you to reshape (10ft > 15ft radius sphere) and widen it (30ft radius sphere). Note that AMF starts around your space due to size, since AFM emanates from "you" and not from the grid (center/intersection/corner) you are standing on.

Turn into a fearsome grappling monsters and deny others to use magic. Enough magical boosts for grappling (Poly, Giant Size > become colossal size, Fearsome Grapple) will ensure that you will have the upper hand in this contest of strength. And if that ain't enough, call your buddies with Body Outside Body to gang up on your enemy/ies.

edit: Did forgot about Iron Will and included it into the feat selection.

[ShurikVch]

Dragon #281 has the "Mind Lords of Talaron" article, which tells us a story of Talaire, which are kinda Humans from another world.
They have no magical knowledge (but not explicitly incapable like Karsites) and using psionics.
The notable part about them: they're enforcing Psionics Is Different rule - even in a setting with default 100% transparency
Thus, you would be able to be in the AMF while benefiting from Metamorphosis, Expansion, Grip of Iron, Form of Doom, and Claws of Darkness

[Anthrowhale]

Do you have a build name for it?

Suggestions? "Horrible Cultist Grappler" is my first attempt.

IMO, +1 to hit and grapple is less valuable than 3 feats, flaws or no.

I think you're right. Using the 3rd feat for Knowledge Devotion leaves us at 90% odds of attack hitting + Improved grab grapple succeeding vs. a Balor. That's probably good enough.

Seeing this thread made me think about some way to defeat freedom of movement and while amf is probably better, still wanted to mention steal spell effect from the spellthief.

This seems to synergize well with the Balhannoth since that deals with items but not precast effects.

Selective Spell AMF ensures that we are the only one that is having fun with magic here (most of the times).

Selective Spell AMF suppresses all spells within it's area as normal. It just means you don't blink out if you are an Incorporeal (undead by PHB or in general by RC).

Dragon #281 ... they're enforcing Psionics Is Different rule - even in a setting with default 100% transparency
Thus, you would be able to be in the AMF while benefiting from Metamorphosis, Expansion, Grip of Iron, Form of Doom, and Claws of Darkness

So this provides a good alternative to Initiate of Mystra, implying there are two caster-based approaches.

[Gruftzwerg]

Selective Spell AMF suppresses all spells within it's area as normal. It just means you don't blink out if you are an Incorporeal (undead by PHB or in general by RC).

Selective Spell AMF also leaves all buff spells on you untouched and allows you to even apply more buff spells on yourself while it is up. And the build is mostly about self buffs (except Color Spray which ain't the main selling point here).

[Anthrowhale]

Selective Spell AMF also leaves all buff spells on you untouched and allows you to even apply more buff spells on yourself while it is up. And the build is mostly about self buffs (except Color Spray which ain't the main selling point here).

I disagree here, and I believe RAW does as well. Selective Spell says:

You can modify an area spell so that it does not affect one designated creature within it's area.

This says nothing about not affecting a spell (designated or not) within it's area. Selective Spell[You] Antimagic Field means that Antimagic Field does not affect you, but since AMF also affects spells directly (by suppressing them), it will continue to suppress all spells in effect on you.