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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PirateWench

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    Jan 2012

    Default Re: Surprising experiences with an DMPC

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    Out of curiosity, why is it a good experience? I don't doubt a good GM can avoid the usual issues of a DMPC, but as I mentioned earlier I don't really understand the point to them, whether from a player or GM perspective.
    From the perspective of the GM: The GM wants to play a game, just like all the players do. If you can imagine why the players would want to play a game, then you can understand why the GM wants to play the exact same game. And, sure, you can say "Just play a game when someone else is the GM" but that may not be a feasible possibility. I know in my old gaming circle, I was almost always the GM since everybody wanted me to be the GM (or nobody else wanted to be the GM or a combination of both). And even if other people would want to run games that other people would want to play... it wouldn't be the same game. I know that most of the games I have run have been fairly unique to the point that nobody else would ever run a game like that (and a player once commented when people were considering other games to run, "Well we don't need ANOTHER game like that since we've already played that game"), so it would be absolutely impossible to play in that sort of game when someone else is the GM. So, in order to play in the best game ever (which is, of course, whatever game I choose to run), the only way to make that happen is to have a DMPC. And, yeah, it's not quite the same thing as actually playing as a player, but it's the closest you can get to perfection (by which I mean playing in the best game ever... and by "best game ever", I mean any game that I run). And if this is the closest that I can get to perfection, then I'm definitely going to want to take advantage of that possibility.

    From the perspective of a player: Hey, there's another person in the group. Hurray!

    That's pretty much it.

    Assuming you don't already have a ridiculous number of players in the group, another PC is almost always a good thing. Like, you wouldn't run a game with only one PC, and it's kind of risky to try it with just two PCs... sometimes you just need the right number of PCs for a game to function. With only one PC, a single critical hit from an enemy could mean a TPK. And with two PCs, it's not that much further away. And sometimes the extra PC can fill in a gap in abilities, like if the group doesn't have a cleric but the extra PC is a cleric, well, that's just perfect.
    Last edited by SimonMoon6; 2021-06-20 at 05:20 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Batcathat's Avatar

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    Default Re: Surprising experiences with an DMPC

    Quote Originally Posted by SimonMoon6 View Post
    From the perspective of the GM: The GM wants to play a game, just like all the players do.
    I guess I just don't understand that part. A GM is playing a game, just not the exact same one as the players. As I think I mentioned earlier, one of the things I love about GM:ing is that I get to create and play so many different characters.

    It's understandable if a GM sometimes wants to be a player (especially if they're always the GM) but having a DMPC doesn't really accomplish that as I see it, they still do all the GM stuff even if they have a character "of their own" on top of that, with all the potential complications brought up in this thread.

    But hey, if it makes your GM happy and the players are fine with it, go for it. I just don't really see the point of it myself.
    Last edited by Batcathat; 2021-06-21 at 08:19 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ElfRangerGuy

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    Jul 2014

    Default Re: Surprising experiences with an DMPC

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    I guess I just don't understand that part. A GM is playing a game, just not the exact same one as the players. As I think I mentioned earlier, one of the things I love about GM:ing is that I get to create and play so many different characters.

    It's understandable if a GM sometimes wants to be a player (especially if they're always the GM) but having a DMPC doesn't really accomplish that as I see it, they still do all the GM stuff even if they have a character "of their own" on top of that, with all the potential complications brought up in this thread.

    But hey, if it makes you GM happy and the players are fine with it, go for it. I just don't really see the point of it myself.
    That's also what I was arguing. GMs are playing the game too. Just a different sort of game.

    I think what differentiates a DMPC from an NPC is hitting certain notes in the game, about participating in the party's shenanigans.

    DMPCs are more constrained in this type of play, since they're fundamentally incompatible with many knowledge-based activities (the most stark example being puzzles). Though they are still possible. You can always ask another player to bring a puzzle or something.

    Apart from that, being able to take the spotlight, share in a victory, argue with other players about a plan, do stupid shiz, gleefully watch said stupid plan go up in flames around them. That's kind of the player experience, and you can totally have that on the DM side, as long as you don't succumb to irrational attachments to your character or plan or plot point. Players know that failure is always an option, and as long as the DM doesn't abuse his position of narrative power to skirt or force outcomes, everyone will likely have a good time.

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Aug 2014

    Default Re: Surprising experiences with an DMPC

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    Out of curiosity, why is it a good experience? I don't doubt a good GM can avoid the usual issues of a DMPC, but as I mentioned earlier I don't really understand the point to them, whether from a player or GM perspective.
    Firstly, note that most of the time when I've had a DMPC in my party, it's been a duet campaign - ie just me and the DM. So my options have been to have a solo PC, play multiple PCs myself, or have a DMPC with me. Each option has its upsides and downsides, but focusing on the DMPC one, the benefits have been:

    Having a fun character to play with that I'm not creating myself.

    Playing off of that character for my own RP (RP flows better when you're not RPing both sides, and RP with a party member is very different from RP with a character who isn't part of your party).

    Getting assistance with fights - although the DM can adjust difficulty for a solo PC, some builds have trouble handling some challenges in a fun way. For example, my first DMPC experience was a monster campaign where I played an illithid psion and he played a troll fighter, and squishy caster can be a lot more fun with a big meat-shield protecting you. Especially since this was 3.5 and I focused on mind-affecting powers.

    I have also played with DMPCs in non-duet campaigns, too, and that didn't have as much benefits, but it was still pretty fun because the characters were fun to play with. The one I really remember was an awakened giant constrictor snake who liked eating our enemies, and who ended up being friends with my necromancer because he decided to curry favor with her to make sure she never wanted to eat him. He soon found that she was also just good company, when he needed a break from the chaos of the rest of the party.

    Generally, the best DMPC is a character who has fairly simple motivations and a tendency to be a follower. Meatshields and healers are the best builds for DMPCs. You don't need to agonize over whether they'll know how to solve a puzzle as much as some of the people in this thread, but it's best not to have them take the lead in most situations. In general, give the PCs a chance to solve the problem themselves, and if they're struggling, have the DMPC be the mouthpiece for a hint. (Even if it's an Int 6 guy going "what does this button do?" rather than them actually figuring out anything.) Plot-wise, have them be a supporting character - at most, they can be as plot-relevant as the PCs, but it's often good to make them have much less importance to the plot. For example, with the illithid and troll campaign, the main plot was focused on my illithid's former hive wanting to hunt xem down to enact revenge, and the troll was just an orphan I adopted along the way.

    In my experience, the biggest problem with DMPCs has been just the mental load on the DM of playing a PC while also DMing. DMing is already a lot to keep track of, and PCs are generally more complicated to play than most NPC statblocks. My one foray into running my own DMPC was a full spellcaster, since that's my favorite character archetype, but that was a huge mistake. Even the troll's regeneration only happened about half the time because we kept forgetting he had it - when the same guy who ran that DMPC ran a troll PC later on with me DMing, it was a lot easier for him to remember to heal his PC every round.

    And in my experience, even if you don't plan on building a DMPC, there's a decent chance you might stumble into one. Especially with a solo PC, but even parties have a tendency to latch onto NPCs and convince them to join the party, and the distinction between "NPC who's part of the party" and "DMPC" can get very blurry. So I think knowing how to do a DMPC well would be useful for any DM whose PCs like to invite NPCs to come with them.
    Last edited by Ettina; 2021-06-21 at 08:43 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    May 2018

    Default Re: Surprising experiences with an DMPC

    What is a DMPC is linked to what is a PC. There is a set of things that make a PC:

    (1) Being controlled by a (non-GM) player.
    (2) Being built using PC rules.
    (3) The PC is part of the "team of PCs", meaning that it is an ally in most encounters (and share XP & co with the other members of the team).
    (4) The controller has a sense of ownership over their character. They're not just piloting the character, they have creative control over the character. This include some level of player agency.
    (5) The PC is at the center of the narrative. While the world is likely not about them, the story told along the gaming sessions is.

    For DMPC, (1) is clearly off the table, (2) is not necessary but one have to be careful to still remain "fair", and (5) seems to be the source of most DMPC horror stories.
    Last edited by MoiMagnus; 2021-06-21 at 10:17 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Batcathat's Avatar

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    Default Re: Surprising experiences with an DMPC

    Quote Originally Posted by MoiMagnus View Post
    (1) Being controlled by a (non-GM) player.
    (2) Being build using PC rules.
    (3) The PC is part of the "team of PCs", meaning that it is an ally in most encounters (and share XP & co with the other members of the team).
    (4) The controller has a sense of ownership over their character. They're not just piloting the character, they have creative control over the character. This include some level of player agency.
    (5) The PC is at the center of the narrative. While the world is likely not about them, the story told along the gaming sessions is.
    Interesting list. I think my definition of DMPC has most to do with number four. If there's a difference between an NPC, no matter how important, and a DMPC it's that, that the GM has a sense of ownership over the character they don't have for the other characters in the game.

    You're probably right that number five is the source of a lot of the problems with DMPCs, but to be fair a lot of those problems aren't exclusive to DMPCs (at least not my definition of the term). I think all GMs have experience with creating a villain so cool that you kinda don't want the PCs to defeat them or made a minor NPC so interesting that you just want to explore them in greater detail. Giving in to those temptations can cause a lot of the same problems (specifically with stealing the narrative focus) as a DMPC, I think.
    Last edited by Batcathat; 2021-06-21 at 10:03 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Re: Surprising experiences with an DMPC

    Quote Originally Posted by MoiMagnus View Post
    What is a DMPC is linked to what is a PC. There is a set of things that make a PC:

    (1) Being controlled by a (non-GM) player.
    (2) Being built using PC rules.
    (3) The PC is part of the "team of PCs", meaning that it is an ally in most encounters (and share XP & co with the other members of the team).
    (4) The controller has a sense of ownership over their character. They're not just piloting the character, they have creative control over the character. This include some level of player agency.
    (5) The PC is at the center of the narrative. While the world is likely not about them, the story told along the gaming sessions is.

    For DMPC, (1) is clearly off the table, (2) is not necessary but one have to be careful to still remain "fair", and (5) seems to be the source of most DMPC horror stories.
    I'd like a slight amendment to (5). The PC is a protagonist of the story/narrative. Reoccurring villains are also central to the narrative but are definitely not DMPCs. At least not intentionally
    Last edited by Mastikator; 2021-06-21 at 10:29 AM.
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  8. - Top - End - #38
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Batcathat's Avatar

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    Nov 2019

    Default Re: Surprising experiences with an DMPC

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    I'd like a slight amendment to (5). The PC is a protagonist of the story/narrative. Reoccurring villains are also central to the narrative but are definitely not DMPCs. At least not intentionally
    True, it's not that villains or other NPCs can't ever be central to the narrative, just that they shouldn't take up too much of it (though how much is "too much" is obviously hard to say for sure).
    Last edited by Batcathat; 2021-06-21 at 10:38 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Aug 2014

    Default Re: Surprising experiences with an DMPC

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    You're probably right that number five is the source of a lot of the problems with DMPCs, but to be fair a lot of those problems aren't exclusive to DMPCs (at least not my definition of the term).
    It's a pretty common issue for bad PCs, especially bad PCs benefitting from GM favoritism. I suspect the biggest problem with DMPCs is simply that you can have those problems result from one wangrod in the group, instead of needing two wangrods in cahoots to create them.

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