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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Rules Question Pass Without Trace

    After the casting can PCs move farther than 30 feet away from the caster or do they need to stay within 30 feet to keep the +10 to stealth?

    In other words can a character cast PWT and have the rogue go scout ahead without the party?

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    Grod_The_Giant's Avatar

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    Default Re: Rules Question Pass Without Trace

    I think they have to be within thirty feet of you. It's not an enchantment that targets any number of creatures within 30 feet-- it has a range of Self, it targets YOU. For the duration, you can give nearby creatures a stealth bonus
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    Default Re: Rules Question Pass Without Trace

    Grod's reading is correct.

    If you want to scout ahead, you need to go in a pair. (This is a good reason to arrange for the caster to also be a sneaky type. And it's probably just as well since a pair of scouts are less likely to run into lethal trouble.)
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  4. - Top - End - #4
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    Tanarii's Avatar

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    Default Re: Rules Question Pass Without Trace

    Requires Pass Without Trace formation aka Fireball formation.

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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Rules Question Pass Without Trace

    For reference, while Tweets are not official is does seem that the RAI is that you need to stay in range (and also the caster can cut you off or add you in flexibly while the spell is up).

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Rules Question Pass Without Trace

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    I think they have to be within thirty feet of you. It's not an enchantment that targets any number of creatures within 30 feet-- it has a range of Self, it targets YOU. For the duration, you can give nearby creatures a stealth bonus
    This is interesting and I'd never thought about it. So most spells you are allowed to move away after, but not those that target self or a creature then the range applies from there?

  7. - Top - End - #7
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    Segev's Avatar

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    Default Re: Rules Question Pass Without Trace

    Quote Originally Posted by 5eNeedsDarksun View Post
    This is interesting and I'd never thought about it. So most spells you are allowed to move away after, but not those that target self or a creature then the range applies from there?
    At least for me, a point of interest is that it talks about the "veil of shadows" that extends out from you being the cause of the bonuses.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Rules Question Pass Without Trace

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    At least for me, a point of interest is that it talks about the "veil of shadows" that extends out from you being the cause of the bonuses.
    I donít know, that seems more like fluff to me, hence I was confused when rereading the spell.

    The wording seem to imply that when you cast it you can give a +10 bonus to anyone within 30 ft of you but it doesnít say they need to stay within 30 feet since it isnít an aura so to speak.

    However, based on the earlier posters and Crawford tweets I think the RAI is that to benefit from the +10 they need to be within 30 feet.

  9. - Top - End - #9
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    Segev's Avatar

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    Default Re: Rules Question Pass Without Trace

    Quote Originally Posted by Gignere View Post
    I donít know, that seems more like fluff to me, hence I was confused when rereading the spell.

    The wording seem to imply that when you cast it you can give a +10 bonus to anyone within 30 ft of you but it doesnít say they need to stay within 30 feet since it isnít an aura so to speak.

    However, based on the earlier posters and Crawford tweets I think the RAI is that to benefit from the +10 they need to be within 30 feet.
    A complicated but important point about 5e is that it has no fluff/crunch divide. While you can make arguments about changing "fluff" without changing "crunch," it will always be a discussion. 5e spells do particular things and the mechanics reflect what they're doing.

    You could make a spell that instead somehow buffs everyone in the burst when you cast it. But you probably need to change the "fluff" description, technically making it a different spell.

    On the other hand, you don't have to keep re-rolling Dexterity (Stealth) when you've taken the Hide action once, so as long as the DM doesn't determine that your situation has changed in major ways, you can probably get away with that first Hide check qualifying, so as long as you took it while benefitting from the spell....

  10. - Top - End - #10
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    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: Rules Question Pass Without Trace

    Quote Originally Posted by Gignere View Post
    I donít know, that seems more like fluff to me, hence I was confused when rereading the spell.

    The wording seem to imply that when you cast it you can give a +10 bonus to anyone within 30 ft of you but it doesnít say they need to stay within 30 feet since it isnít an aura so to speak.

    However, based on the earlier posters and Crawford tweets I think the RAI is that to benefit from the +10 they need to be within 30 feet.
    You can read it both ways. Either 'instantaneously give stealth to creatures within 30 feet at time of casting' or 'gain the ability to give stealth to creatures within 30 feet while the spell is active'.
    However, the fact that the target is 'self' heavily supports the second reading.

  11. - Top - End - #11
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Rules Question Pass Without Trace

    Quote Originally Posted by Gignere View Post
    After the casting can PCs move farther than 30 feet away from the caster or do they need to stay within 30 feet to keep the +10 to stealth?

    In other words can a character cast PWT and have the rogue go scout ahead without the party?
    "For the duration, each creature you choose within 30 feet of you (including you) has a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks and can't be tracked except by magical means." If it's not limited by range, you can buff infinite targets with it, by running around and slapping everyone with it. With a second level spell. This should be a red flag to you that this interpretation is suspect.

    It's an emitted bubble - while the spell is up on you, all creatures that are both a) within 30 feet of you and b) chosen by you gain the bonus.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Rules Question Pass Without Trace

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    A complicated but important point about 5e is that it has no fluff/crunch divide.
    Have you ever played an artificer?

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Rules Question Pass Without Trace

    Quote Originally Posted by Hairfish View Post
    Have you ever played an artificer?
    Hahaha, touche. I like Rising From the Last War but I think they missed a big opportunity there.

    I usually offer artificer players the chance to embrace the fluff as crunch. Here's an email I sent recently:

    I noticed that you're really enjoying playing up the gadgeteer angle of Artificer. The basic rules for Artificer say there's no impact on spellcasting for Artificers - - that the gadgeteer stuff is just fluff and doesn't matter, but if you're interested it doesn't have to be this way.

    If you're interested, instead of spell slots and prepared spells, we can make your Artificer spells be actual gadgets that you prepare in advance. Impact:

    (1) Have to decide what they are in advance, when you take the long rest, e.g. 2 Cure Wounds and a Web. Looks like you're doing this already, from a fluff perspective, based on your spear/syringe narration.

    (2) You don't need spell components, verbal or otherwise, to activate your gadgets. You do need a free hand, unless you predefine the gadget to work some other way that doesn't require hands to activate, like a tongue switch. You need Artificer's tools at the time you prepare your gadgets, not (per RAW) when you activate them.

    (3) They can theoretically be stolen or lost, at least until you can rest again. Except for the Spell Storing Item, other people can't operate them.

    (4) Your choice of either bonus spells or not being magical.

    Bonus spells: my opening bid is the equivalent of one extra slot of each level, in spell points; in your case at 6th level you'd have 5/3 slots = 19 spell points, instead of 4/2 = 14. Let me know if you have a counterbid.

    Not being magical makes your Artificer gadgets immune to magic resistance, antimagic zones, etc. Does not apply to infusions.

    Let me know your interest level.
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Rules Question Pass Without Trace

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    On the other hand, you don't have to keep re-rolling Dexterity (Stealth) when you've taken the Hide action once, so as long as the DM doesn't determine that your situation has changed in major ways, you can probably get away with that first Hide check qualifying, so as long as you took it while benefitting from the spell....
    LOL, no way would I let you do this as DM. If you jump out of the aura, or the caster moves away or loses concentration, reroll your check, even if you're just quietly hiding behind a rock. If you jump INTO the aura, also reroll your check.

  15. - Top - End - #15
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    Segev's Avatar

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    Default Re: Rules Question Pass Without Trace

    Quote Originally Posted by Hairfish View Post
    Have you ever played an artificer?
    I have not. Note, however, that the artificer goes out of its way to specify that there is a pure fluff element that is nevertheless required as part of its crunch. You MUST use some sort of tool or gizmo for your spells, but it specifies that WHAT that gizmo or tool is and how it achieves the result of the spell is up to you. Note that I didn't say there is no fluff, nor that crunch can't be refluffed. But in 5e, the divide is not explicitly there, so the fluff actually informs the crunch: it tells us what the crunch is trying to model. And you can't just say, "well, that's just fluff, so you can ignore it," because what you might be dismissing as "fluff" is actually telling us some specific part of the effect. There is a veil of shadows and silence emanating from the caster of pass without trace, and that is permitting those he chooses to have more muffled movements and better concealment to grant +10 to Dexterity (Stealth) checks to hide. This isn't "just fluff;" it's what the spell is doing. This informs us that it is unlikely, in fact, that it's a burst effect that grants people in the area when you cast it +10 for the duration, no matter how far away they move from you, because that's not what the spell says it does. It says it makes a veil of shadows and silence surround you for the duration, and then it spells out the mechanical impact this has.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZRN View Post
    LOL, no way would I let you do this as DM. If you jump out of the aura, or the caster moves away or loses concentration, reroll your check, even if you're just quietly hiding behind a rock. If you jump INTO the aura, also reroll your check.
    Personally, I see it as situational. Was your Stealth check just to determine if you hid to escape detection as you were getting away? I'd probably let it stand if you had similarly good ways to continue to hide after you left, or the interested party's attention was on the starting point. Was your Stealth check at the beginning of a lengthy effort to infiltrate past multiple observers in well-observed areas? No, I'd make you re-check at least once, possibly each time you transitioned to a new "observed area."

    An example of the first from a game I'm in: we had an NPC who we'd agreed to transport to a designated location, when a super-scary fey warship descended on us and demanded we turn a person of a particular name over to them. We honestly didn't know (but could definitely guess) that the person we were transporting was the named individual, and we managed to get away without having the ship forceably searched...but there was no way we were getting her to her destination without her being caught. She decided to leave on her own to elude capture. My Shadow Monk offered her his aid in slipping off the ship unnoticed - he used pass without trace. He did this while performing his nightly katas on the deck, and she slipped out of her quarters and over the side of the boat into the water through the aura the spell was creating.

    The DM rolled for her stealth check only the once, benefitting from the aura. This made sense, because she was in the water and swimming beneath it, out of sight, once she left the aura. It concealed her during the risky portion that the fey were watching where she'd be. They were not watching the water beneath and out away from the ship nearly as closely.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Rules Question Pass Without Trace

    A really good option for pass without trace is to have the druid cast it and then hide in the rogue's pocket in a tiny wildshape form.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: Rules Question Pass Without Trace

    Quote Originally Posted by ZRN View Post
    LOL, no way would I let you do this as DM. If you jump out of the aura, or the caster moves away or loses concentration, reroll your check, even if you're just quietly hiding behind a rock. If you jump INTO the aura, also reroll your check.
    Just to point out, this is actually much more abusable than the thing you're trying to prevent. Given being steathy is something that would be obviously to someone watching (like a fellow party member), they could just skip in and out of the aura until they got a good roll, get given a thumbs up and then peace out.

    It would make more sense to maintain the roll but just add or subtract the +10 bonus depending on if they were in or outside the aura at the relevant time.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Rules Question Pass Without Trace

    Quoth Segev:

    On the other hand, you don't have to keep re-rolling Dexterity (Stealth) when you've taken the Hide action once, so as long as the DM doesn't determine that your situation has changed in major ways, you can probably get away with that first Hide check qualifying, so as long as you took it while benefitting from the spell....
    It sure seems to me that gaining or losing a +10 bonus would constitute "your situation changing in major ways".

    Oh, and Ettina, I love the idea of the druid in the rogue's pocket.
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    Segev's Avatar

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    Default Re: Rules Question Pass Without Trace

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    It sure seems to me that gaining or losing a +10 bonus would constitute "your situation changing in major ways".

    Oh, and Ettina, I love the idea of the druid in the rogue's pocket.
    Arguable. Mostly, I think if you are hidden, you stay hidden. But it really will be up to the DM when you have to check again.

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