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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Default 10 pounds of water.

    I miss the tower shield.
    More precisely I miss portable cover.
    10 pounds of water can make a sheet of ice 5'x6' x 1/16 of an inch thick,with about a quarter of a pound left over to create a base.
    Mage Hand could move it as an action, a single point of damage should shatter it, and it takes two castings of Shape Water to make.
    Still,it lasts an hour, it can be made opaque, and it fits in a large jug.

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    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Segev's Avatar

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    Default Re: 10 pounds of water.

    Interesting idea, though what mechanics do you propose for judging its impact during combat?

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    Titan in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Re: 10 pounds of water.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogun View Post
    I miss the tower shield.
    More precisely I miss portable cover.
    10 pounds of water can make a sheet of ice 5'x6' x 1/16 of an inch thick,with about a quarter of a pound left over to create a base.
    Mage Hand could move it as an action, a single point of damage should shatter it, and it takes two castings of Shape Water to make.
    Still,it lasts an hour, it can be made opaque, and it fits in a large jug.
    What would be the purpose? You're spending 2 turns to create something that can be destroyed in less than one.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: 10 pounds of water.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogun View Post
    I miss the tower shield.
    More precisely I miss portable cover.
    10 pounds of water can make a sheet of ice 5'x6' x 1/16 of an inch thick,with about a quarter of a pound left over to create a base.
    Mage Hand could move it as an action, a single point of damage should shatter it, and it takes two castings of Shape Water to make.
    Still,it lasts an hour, it can be made opaque, and it fits in a large jug.
    I liked the idea when I first read it, but then I looked harder at your math. 1/16 of an inch thick doesn't sound like total cover to me, more like concealment--that's going to shatter the first time someone hits it, and it might not even stop the attack in the first place (it might just deduct 1-4 HP from the attack's damage). Even if the DM judges that it does block the attack, why not just carry a sheet of wood that size instead of using ice?

    Also, Mold Earth does it better: 9000 lb. of earth berm is much, much harder to punch through than 10 lb. of ice.

    Nice idea, but impractical.
    Purple text = personal judgment which I don't expect you necessarily to share. YMMV.

    Everything on the Internet is opinion but purple text is my way of highlighting that I am not interested in persuading you to share mine.

    This is the Most Important Video You've Never Seen About 5E Design. 5E designers Mike Mearls and Rodney Thompson tell you how game design was done, how classes were balanced against each other, etc.

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  5. - Top - End - #5
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: 10 pounds of water.

    What it does is give you a portable, transparent wall. Think line of sight.

    If you need a comparison, look at wall of water which has the same effect but is both larger and immobile.

    This would be a great way to counter an enemy who's first action would be to cast mental effects or has an aura effect other than fire damage.

    ** edit add-on.
    Wall shields could actually be made pretty easy. They are less a shield and more concealment, so just carry something around that accomplishes the same effect.

    Combat Shrubbery
    This common non-magical item is simply a tall shrub in a pot with an arm strap to move it around quickly. This action takes an action to pick up but can be dropped as a free action as with any other object. It is otherwise considered to be grappled by your free hand.

    If the shrub is between you and an enemy, you can concealment from their attacks and vice versa. If the enemy attempts to move the object, you can have a contested athletics check to see who controls the movement.

    The only known use was by an group of dwarves dwelling in a townhouse when a foreign agent came for their legally owned coin (aka. a tax collector). They ripped the plants adorning the garden down and used them as a makeshift wall to block the entrance. It was remarkably effective until the enemy found they were susceptable to repeated attacks by axes.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Re: 10 pounds of water.

    Water weighs about a pound per pint. 10 pints is not a "large jug". A large jug or pitcher might hold 4 pints, 5 at a push for something that still qualifies as a "jug". 10 pints is, in modern nomenclature, a "mini-keg" of approx 7" diameter and 10" height and while portable, is not particularly convenient to carry. In D&D, you might think more along the lines of a small goatskin containing that quantity of water; maybe roughly 6"x18" at a guess? (goatskins have a weird volume, due to their odd shape) Either way, a significant item to carry and for the convenience and encumbrance you may as well lug a chunk of wood around. Just my opinion.
    I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.

    Please be aware; when it comes to 5ed D&D, I own Core (1st printing) and SCAG only. All my opinions and rulings are based solely on those, unless otherwise stated. I reserve the right of ignorance of errata or any other source.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: 10 pounds of water.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    What would be the purpose? You're spending 2 turns to create something that can be destroyed in less than one.
    It lasts an hour and can be carried by a mage hand.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: 10 pounds of water.

    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPooga View Post
    Water weighs about a pound per pint. 10 pints is not a "large jug". A large jug or pitcher might hold 4 pints, 5 at a push for something that still qualifies as a "jug". 10 pints is, in modern nomenclature, a "mini-keg" of approx 7" diameter and 10" height and while portable, is not particularly convenient to carry. In D&D, you might think more along the lines of a small goatskin containing that quantity of water; maybe roughly 6"x18" at a guess? (goatskins have a weird volume, due to their odd shape) Either way, a significant item to carry and for the convenience and encumbrance you may as well lug a chunk of wood around. Just my opinion.
    A gallon of water weights 8.3 lb. A milk jug holds a gallon. "Large jug" seems like a plausible way to describe an oversized milk jug.
    Purple text = personal judgment which I don't expect you necessarily to share. YMMV.

    Everything on the Internet is opinion but purple text is my way of highlighting that I am not interested in persuading you to share mine.

    This is the Most Important Video You've Never Seen About 5E Design. 5E designers Mike Mearls and Rodney Thompson tell you how game design was done, how classes were balanced against each other, etc.

    Why Mark of Storms Warlocks Are Better Tanks Than Most Fighters

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Zombie

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    Default Re: 10 pounds of water.

    You know, there's no reason you can't ask the DM to buy a tower shield that will just function as a wall to hide behind but, while equipped would provide advantage to melee opponents who walk around it.
    I am the flush of excitement. The blush on the cheek. I am the Rouge!

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: 10 pounds of water.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    What would be the purpose? You're spending 2 turns to create something that can be destroyed in less than one.
    It'd be a funny use of metamagic at lvl 3 ig.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Re: 10 pounds of water.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    A gallon of water weights 8.3 lb. A milk jug holds a gallon. "Large jug" seems like a plausible way to describe an oversized milk jug.
    It depends on whether you're measuring your gallon in US or Imperial and whether the OP is using Imperial or US measurements for their calculations. I, a Brit, imagine a gallon as a touch more than someone in the US, I dare say. Either way 10lb of water (approx. 1 Imperial Gallon, or about 125% of a US Gallon) is still, in my opinion, more than what I'd describe as a large jug and is definitively in the realm of "canisters" (or "cans"), "kegs" and "sacks" rather than "jug" (which, to me, implies a degree of manual handling/utility rather than transport; you carry liquid in a canister or sack, you store it in kegs and barrels, but you pour it from a jug as a largely temporary receptacle). I grant that it's all semantics *shrug*.
    I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.

    Please be aware; when it comes to 5ed D&D, I own Core (1st printing) and SCAG only. All my opinions and rulings are based solely on those, unless otherwise stated. I reserve the right of ignorance of errata or any other source.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: 10 pounds of water.

    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPooga View Post
    Water weighs about a pound per pint. 10 pints is not a "large jug". A large jug or pitcher might hold 4 pints, 5 at a push for something that still qualifies as a "jug". 10 pints is, in modern nomenclature, a "mini-keg" of approx 7" diameter and 10" height and while portable, is not particularly convenient to carry. In D&D, you might think more along the lines of a small goatskin containing that quantity of water; maybe roughly 6"x18" at a guess? (goatskins have a weird volume, due to their odd shape) Either way, a significant item to carry and for the convenience and encumbrance you may as well lug a chunk of wood around. Just my opinion.
    Water is 8.34 lbs a gallon, so our container is not much bigger than a gallon jug of water.
    I actually agree, a hunk of wood would be better, if it were in the shape of a tower shield and could be used as one,but that isn't ever gonna fly at any reasonable table.
    Movable cover might be ok, but I'm willing to giving up the AC from shield for it.
    I could carry it in my casting hand, and put it down when we face an encounter.
    I would be willing to try this.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: 10 pounds of water.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigreid View Post
    You know, there's no reason you can't ask the DM to buy a tower shield that will just function as a wall to hide behind but, while equipped would provide advantage to melee opponents who walk around it.
    This is probably the right approach.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: 10 pounds of water.

    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPooga View Post
    It depends on whether you're measuring your gallon in US or Imperial and whether the OP is using Imperial or US measurements for their calculations. I, a Brit, imagine a gallon as a touch more than someone in the US, I dare say. Either way 10lb of water (approx. 1 Imperial Gallon, or about 125% of a US Gallon) is still, in my opinion, more than what I'd describe as a large jug and is definitively in the realm of "canisters" (or "cans"), "kegs" and "sacks" rather than "jug" (which, to me, implies a degree of manual handling/utility rather than transport; you carry liquid in a canister or sack, you store it in kegs and barrels, but you pour it from a jug as a largely temporary receptacle). I grant that it's all semantics *shrug*.
    Huh. As a bachelor I routinely drink milk straight from the jug but YMMV I guess. (I also reuse milk jugs as water bottles.)
    Purple text = personal judgment which I don't expect you necessarily to share. YMMV.

    Everything on the Internet is opinion but purple text is my way of highlighting that I am not interested in persuading you to share mine.

    This is the Most Important Video You've Never Seen About 5E Design. 5E designers Mike Mearls and Rodney Thompson tell you how game design was done, how classes were balanced against each other, etc.

    Why Mark of Storms Warlocks Are Better Tanks Than Most Fighters

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: 10 pounds of water.

    Have you considered the uses of minor illusion? It won't block actual hits, but an illusory object to hide inside will block line of sight and give total concealment.

    When our lvl 1 party almost died fighting worgs, the wizard kept us hidden long enough for the downed PCs to regain consciousness by hiding us in an illusory boulder. (Note that it's got no verbal component and doesn't require concentration, so you can re-up it while hiding inside it without alerting nearby creatures.)

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: 10 pounds of water.

    My current character has both minor illusion and shape water.
    I love bother cover and concealment!

    How big would a barrier need to be to offer cover?
    I picked 5' x 6' but if it could be smaller, that would be great.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Re: 10 pounds of water.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogun View Post
    How big would a barrier need to be to offer cover?
    I picked 5' x 6' but if it could be smaller, that would be great.
    It depends, particularly on how many positions within your arc of fire your opponents can occupy (and if your are being fully flanked, you would need a barrier all around you). However, pavises and various other forms of emplaced shields/mobile walls existed IRL and could be anywhere from a ~3'x4' thing you ducked behind to reload to full-on sections of wall multiple people would be moving.

    All of this is going to run headlong into the realism issue that D&D always has: -- real world medieval technology was meant for real world battle situations and throwing dragons and fireballs into the equation makes direct comparisons less than perfectly useful.
    Last edited by Willie the Duck; 2021-06-17 at 08:32 PM.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    stoutstien's Avatar

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    Default Re: 10 pounds of water.

    Probably easier to make a pavise as an adventuring gear object. Could even include it's big brother the mantlet.
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

    All credit to the amazing avatar goes to thoroughlyS

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: 10 pounds of water.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ettina View Post
    When our lvl 1 party almost died fighting worgs, the wizard kept us hidden long enough for the downed PCs to regain consciousness by hiding us in an illusory boulder. (Note that it's got no verbal component and doesn't require concentration, so you can re-up it while hiding inside it without alerting nearby creatures.)
    Was her name Shallan Davar? :)
    Purple text = personal judgment which I don't expect you necessarily to share. YMMV.

    Everything on the Internet is opinion but purple text is my way of highlighting that I am not interested in persuading you to share mine.

    This is the Most Important Video You've Never Seen About 5E Design. 5E designers Mike Mearls and Rodney Thompson tell you how game design was done, how classes were balanced against each other, etc.

    Why Mark of Storms Warlocks Are Better Tanks Than Most Fighters

  20. - Top - End - #20
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    Segev's Avatar

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    Default Re: 10 pounds of water.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Was her name Shallan Davar? :)
    Might've been Veil.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: 10 pounds of water.

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    Probably easier to make a pavise as an adventuring gear object. Could even include it's big brother the mantlet.
    A pavise would be cool.
    They were often carried by a soldier dedicated to the task, so they were heavy.
    The first home brew example I found requires an action to plant it, then gives 1/2 cover...
    Underwhelming, but not nothing.

    A big portable shield , like a Nguni shield, would be cool.
    I'm playing a Lizardfolk right now, I wonder if my DM would let me build a one with their racial ability.
    They had one like that in 3.5, +3 AC, -1 to all attack rolls, no shield bashing,and you could claim total cover but you gave up all attacks for that round.
    The cover also did not work against targeted spells.
    All that might be hard to translate into 5e.

    What if our Nguni style shield could grant grant heavy obscument?
    That's probably too good, but very apt.
    3/4ths cover?
    Also dammed good, probably even better and also less apt.
    The penalty of granting advantage to melee opponents is pretty spot on, at least for when you are claiming your boon.

    So, how about a shield that can grant the usual +2 to AC ,or it can allow you to to hide behind it, creating disadvantage on ranged attacks against you, and a plus 2 vs dex saves, but granting advantage to melee opponents.
    You can switch back and forth from hiding behinded with an object interaction.
    Getting rushed while you are hiding behind the shield will shaft you, but it is excellent against ranged attacks.

    Thats very far from where I started this thread, but very close to simulating what I want.
    For weight and cost, I would want to stat it as a shield sized for a Large character, but I haven't found the 5e formula for that,if there is one.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    sandmote's Avatar

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    Default Re: 10 pounds of water.

    Honestly, you can probably just say that planting the shield as an interaction grants 1/2 cover against ranged attacks. As far an I'm aware the pavise itself was never a liability against melee, the problem more commonly being that it isn't useful in melee and the people using it typically weren't outfitted to resist a charge. After all, a shield held in your hand stacks with cover, applies against melee attacks, and doesn't require spending your interaction to take it with you, so I doubt you need an extra penalty to balance the two against each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogun View Post
    For weight and cost, I would want to stat it as a shield sized for a Large character, but I haven't found the 5e formula for that,if there is one.
    I don't think there is one, partially due there no being published PC races larger than medium. I'd say 12 pounds and ~30 gp, given the size and weight.

    Edit: Apparently this is published such race, in something called "Sandy Petersen's Cthulhu Mythos."
    Last edited by sandmote; 2021-06-19 at 12:22 PM.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Zombie

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    Default Re: 10 pounds of water.

    In the right terrain, Move Earth (or is it Shape Earth?) is great for this sort of thing as you can quickly build up walls to fortify your position.
    I am the flush of excitement. The blush on the cheek. I am the Rouge!

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: 10 pounds of water.

    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPooga View Post
    It depends on whether you're measuring your gallon in US or Imperial and whether the OP is using Imperial or US measurements for their calculations. I, a Brit, imagine a gallon as a touch more than someone in the US, I dare say. Either way 10lb of water (approx. 1 Imperial Gallon, or about 125% of a US Gallon) is still, in my opinion, more than what I'd describe as a large jug and is definitively in the realm of "canisters" (or "cans"), "kegs" and "sacks" rather than "jug" (which, to me, implies a degree of manual handling/utility rather than transport; you carry liquid in a canister or sack, you store it in kegs and barrels, but you pour it from a jug as a largely temporary receptacle). I grant that it's all semantics *shrug*.
    A jug is specifically described as 1 gallon in volume in the PHB (of course, this discussion could've been avoided if the values used metric system, like civilized people)

    Anyway, 1/16 of an inch is about 1.5mm. That's really thin. Forget damage, I'd be worried about the ice wall collapsing under its own weight, especially if it's moving.
    Last edited by JackPhoenix; 2021-06-17 at 08:45 PM.
    It's Eberron, not ebberon.
    It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
    And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals get loose.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: 10 pounds of water.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Huh. As a bachelor I routinely drink milk straight from the jug but YMMV I guess. (I also reuse milk jugs as water bottles.)
    As a married man I routinely drink milk straight from the jug... as does my teen-aged son.

    Don't tell my wife.

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    Titan in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Re: 10 pounds of water.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogun View Post
    It lasts an hour and can be carried by a mage hand.
    That doesn't answer my question: why would someone want to carry such a thing (even for 1 hour with Mage Hand)?

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: 10 pounds of water.

    I had a concept floating around using the battle Smith's SD as a self positioning pavise. Also picked up mold earth with a feat so he could scout ahead and set good defensive positions. Couple that with a shield and repeating hand crossbow he is a nasty little goblin.
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

    All credit to the amazing avatar goes to thoroughlyS

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Re: 10 pounds of water.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    A jug is specifically described as 1 gallon in volume in the PHB (of course, this discussion could've been avoided if the values used metric system, like civilized people)

    Anyway, 1/16 of an inch is about 1.5mm. That's really thin. Forget damage, I'd be worried about the ice wall collapsing under its own weight, especially if it's moving.
    The PHB is as specific as the OP with regard to the significant difference between Imperial and US gallons.
    I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.

    Please be aware; when it comes to 5ed D&D, I own Core (1st printing) and SCAG only. All my opinions and rulings are based solely on those, unless otherwise stated. I reserve the right of ignorance of errata or any other source.

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    Default Re: 10 pounds of water.

    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPooga View Post
    The PHB is as specific as the OP with regard to the significant difference between Imperial and US gallons.
    You're thinking too IRL - it's in FR gallons.
    “Rule is what lies between what is said and what is understood.”

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: 10 pounds of water.

    You cannot vertically carry such a large sheet of ice with such a small thickness. You are overlooking the concept of breaking length. The internet said the breaking length of a sheet of ice is approximately 7x its thickness. This means that the ice shield would crumble under its own weight if its height is more than 7x its width (when hung vertically). We can attempt to redesign it for more structural stability.

    We have a few constraints:

    • We have 10 pounds of water (only 0.167 cubic feet)
    • We have to cover half of our body (length should be 5 feet)
    • The height of the sheet may not be more than 7x greater than its width.


    Length*Width*Height=Volume

    5*(x/7)*x= 0.167

    We need x to evaluate to 2.5' for 1/2 cover, 3.75' for 3/4 cover, and 5' for full cover.

    x=0.48'

    Water is dense, if we had more water to work with we could make a bigger shield.
    Ice is a bad material for a shield.

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