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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Jun 2015

    Default Re: What does Lawful Neutral versus Chaotic Neutral divine interplay look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    Floods are not "destroy the world and the people scenarios" they are "destroy most people but a select few" scenarios.
    Aka horrible behaviours but not the end of everything.
    Commonly apocalypses(which also includes the destruction of the world) spare a bunch of people (they skip the being murdered part and instead directly go to the afterlife and other stuff like that) except maybe for that religion with the god that eats all the souls of the dead.
    Last edited by noob; 2021-06-27 at 02:40 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Mar 2020

    Default Re: What does Lawful Neutral versus Chaotic Neutral divine interplay look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Floods are not "destroy the world and the people scenarios" they are "destroy most people but a select few" scenarios.
    For practical purposes, a lot of people would argue the distinction is without difference. To go back to the point made by ideasmith:

    Quote Originally Posted by ideasmith
    If I lived in that universe, I would not want side good to have a conclusive win.
    It's pretty easy to imagine a person who is not in the select few, or even just has doubts about it, objecting to such divine spring cleanings, even if on some level they acknowledge them as good.
    Last edited by Vahnavoi; 2021-06-27 at 03:59 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tanarii's Avatar

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    Sep 2015

    Default Re: What does Lawful Neutral versus Chaotic Neutral divine interplay look like?

    In the Great Wheel for D&D, Evil outnumbers Good by a large degree. The only reason they don't overpower the planes is they fight each other.

    That means anyone concerned about maintaining The Balance will almost always be opposing Evil. Or at least making sure they keep fighting each other. If they're Good, they'll fight the Good fight, generally avoiding morally grey, and almost always avoiding outright Evil means. If they're Neutral they might use morally grey means when they believe it's called for, and may occasionally do outright Evil. Or they may even be Evil themselves, using any means necessary all the time.
    Last edited by Tanarii; 2021-06-27 at 05:30 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: What does Lawful Neutral versus Chaotic Neutral divine interplay look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Is it really good people if they have "killing all the people" in their to be done list?(unless they only plan to destroy the earth without killing the people living on it and that it is needed for making so that the people are not killed ex: a tyranid infestation situation: you destroy the planet because all the people on it died or evacuated and you do not want the tyranids to use the weight of the planet as their own weight)
    I think not.
    It is not because their operating protocol starts by doing good things that their intentions are good.
    If you do a cosmology with the people that will do evil later fighting the people that do evil now then of course you want to get rid of both sides.
    I only still own one book of the trilogy, but IIRC:

    • Destroying both sides is not implied to be possible.

    • Team evil is sufficiently bat-**** evil that a win by team good looks to be preferable to a win by team evil, even to those who die. There is such a thing as a fate worse than death.

    • The readers on not told anything about this ficton's afterlife, but the fires might well know.

    • The death toll from destroying the earth is not specified. Despite your use of quote marks, "killing all the people" is your words, not mine. I didn't rule out survivors, and neither does the trilogy.

    The information in the trilogy is consistent with the destroying the earth being good. Since the fires are consistently portrayed as good, it follows that, in this trilogy, destroying the earth is good, or at least consistent with being good.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
    Troll in the Playground
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    Protecting my Horde (yes, I mean that kind)

    Default Re: What does Lawful Neutral versus Chaotic Neutral divine interplay look like?

    In terms of law versus chaos the D&D version tends to work on the basis of LN kind of being an absolutist judge type character. Functional at a divine level if the LN and CN deities are not in agreement they are definitely working at odds to each other. If they were neighbours then LN would be constantly filing complaints with the local ordnance council about CN doing anything, while CN would then be ignoring everything, playing their music really, really loud, and stealing LN's cat.

    Best way to treat it is probably like LN being Mr Wilson and CN being Denis the Menace. Without Denis necessarily seeming to like Mr Wilson.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Oct 2016

    Default Re: What does Lawful Neutral versus Chaotic Neutral divine interplay look like?

    Generally speaking
    “Lawful” = following the rules to get the desired result. The process guarantees the outcome.
    “Chaotic” = Achieving the goal is more important than the rules. Do whatever it takes.

    For LN and CN the quarrel isn’t about the goals it is about the right way to achieve the goals.
    Chaotic gods will mess with Lawfuls by creating situations where following the process leads to undesirable outcomes.
    Lawful gods will mess with Chaotics by creating situations where the unintended consequences of not following the rules is undesirable.

    Where both gods are of the same G/N/E alignment this will be more about who gets more credit for desirable outcomes and therefore more followers and ultimately more souls. Both want N to win

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: What does Lawful Neutral versus Chaotic Neutral divine interplay look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    Read about Vorlons and Shadows from Babylon 5.
    This is a pretty good example of how both can be scary, destructive and fight by proxy until they couldn't get away with it.

    OTOH, what you've described scans more as factions that will argue. Loudly, publicly and often.
    I suggest "preists" of Khemra turn up on the steps of the Nami temple every Thursday at 3pm to debate with their opposite number. Who may or may not emerge, depending on how busy they are, whether they're in the mood and whether they want to just wander out and chat about (or change) the weather
    I love playing in a party with a couple of power-gamers, it frees me up to be Elan!


  8. - Top - End - #38
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Oct 2016

    Default Re: What does Lawful Neutral versus Chaotic Neutral divine interplay look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scalenex View Post
    Khemra, as mentioned is my Lawful Neutal goddess. Her Dominion over nature is the sun. Her Gift to mortal-kind is literacy. She was hoping that the establishment of writing would make it easier to maintain tradition. Her priesthood (nicknamed the Keepers) is influential among bureaucrats and courtiers and this helps lobby kings and queens.

    Khemra's portfolio includes but is not limited to: The sun, literacy, history, law, oaths of fealty, hierarchies, translators, traditions, travel, regulation of the Nine as a whole, grandeur, royalty

    ...

    Nami is Chaotic Neutral. Her Dominion over nature is weather (which is why weather changes so often). Her Gift to mortal-kind is free will. Nami was the first deity to give a Gift to mortal-kind eventually prompting the other eight deities to give out their own Gifts to bribe mortals into worshipping them now that worship was no longer guaranteed.

    Nami's portfolio includes but is not limited to: Weather, freedom, prophecy, madness, arson, theft, travel, merriment, chaos, unorthodox wisdom, warlocks, humor, orcs, gnolls

    Nami's core followers are nicknamed the Rovers on the Wind or simply "the Rovers" because Nami's followers are usually nomadic and Nami is the goddess of winds. Of all my nine deities, Nami probably has the fewest proselytizers. The Rovers accept anyone who wants to join them but they don't actively recruit. Most mortals in my world will have a big party on Nami's holy days and ignore her the rest of the year. Most regions in my world have their special holy day to Nami at different times of the year, so a great many Rovers run a circuit presiding on six or seven annual Nami festivals every year.

    Nami's Rovers also have a subgroup jokingly nicknamed "Sedentary Rovers" because they don't travel around a lot, but they maintain inns and hospitals at travel junctions. Most sedentary rovers also maintain a winery, brewery, or distillery. Nami doesn't get a lot of monetary donations but she is the goddess of alcoholic beverages so her followers often sell wine and spirits to make extra coin.
    .
    Basically both Khemra and Nami are gods of free will. They want their followers to choose to follow them, not be coerced into following them It’s a war fought with bribes and gifts not the sword and manacles.
    An example of low level shenanigans would be in the aftermath of a disaster for Nami and Khemra’s supporters to organize relief supplies. But for Nami’s supporters to secretly stencil “A gift from Nami” onto all of Khemra’s supplies.
    They’ll be like 2 divorced parents who get on OK, but can’t live with each other trying to woo the affections of a child. Khemra’s the “I’ll help you with your homework” parent and Nami is the “Who’d like to go out for ice cream?” parent.

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Australia

    Default Re: What does Lawful Neutral versus Chaotic Neutral divine interplay look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pauly View Post
    Basically both Khemra and Nami are gods of free will. They want their followers to choose to follow them, not be coerced into following them It’s a war fought with bribes and gifts not the sword and manacles.
    An example of low level shenanigans would be in the aftermath of a disaster for Nami and Khemra’s supporters to organize relief supplies. But for Nami’s supporters to secretly stencil “A gift from Nami” onto all of Khemra’s supplies.
    They’ll be like 2 divorced parents who get on OK, but can’t live with each other trying to woo the affections of a child. Khemra’s the “I’ll help you with your homework” parent and Nami is the “Who’d like to go out for ice cream?” parent.
    That sounds like great fun to have in a game. Maybe especially for a setting with a lot of serious and dark elements and conflict
    I love playing in a party with a couple of power-gamers, it frees me up to be Elan!


  10. - Top - End - #40
    Orc in the Playground
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    Oct 2006

    Default Re: What does Lawful Neutral versus Chaotic Neutral divine interplay look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beleriphon View Post
    In terms of law versus chaos the D&D version tends to work on the basis of LN kind of being an absolutist judge type character. Functional at a divine level if the LN and CN deities are not in agreement they are definitely working at odds to each other. If they were neighbours then LN would be constantly filing complaints with the local ordnance council about CN doing anything, while CN would then be ignoring everything, playing their music really, really loud, and stealing LN's cat.

    Best way to treat it is probably like LN being Mr Wilson and CN being Denis the Menace. Without Denis necessarily seeming to like Mr Wilson.
    That's a pretty good metaphor...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pauly View Post
    Basically both Khemra and Nami are gods of free will. They want their followers to choose to follow them, not be coerced into following them It’s a war fought with bribes and gifts not the sword and manacles.
    An example of low level shenanigans would be in the aftermath of a disaster for Nami and Khemra’s supporters to organize relief supplies. But for Nami’s supporters to secretly stencil “A gift from Nami” onto all of Khemra’s supplies.
    They’ll be like 2 divorced parents who get on OK, but can’t live with each other trying to woo the affections of a child. Khemra’s the “I’ll help you with your homework” parent and Nami is the “Who’d like to go out for ice cream?” parent.
    That's actually a really good metaphor...


    I also like the idea of scheduled debates that Nami's followers may or may not participate in or the idea of Nami's followers taking credit for the good deeds of Khemra's followers.



    Maybe in another world, a Lawful Neutral deity would create a flood or other catastrophe to kill all but a select few mortals, but I cannot picture Khemra or Nami doing that. I cannot even picture my Evil deities doing this.

    At least in my universe, no one, good evil or neutral is doing a world flood thing. Even the Evil deities gods don't want to destroy everything because they want to have a sandbox to play in.

    My world almost got destroyed twice because a mortal messed with forces beyond his/her ken. The First Unmaking occurred when a dragon sorceress accidentally triggered millions of elementals to randomly run amok. This killed about 90% of all living things and destroyed 95% of all artifacts of civilization. The surviving dragons went from being civilized cooperative power to a bunch of loners squatting over their personal hoards.

    The elves took over after the dragons failed, but and an elven wizard accidentally triggered an invasion of millions of otherworldly horrors that wanted to eat the souls of all mortals. This killed about 92% of all mortals, 70% of all animals, and 80% of all artifacts of civilization. This was called the Second Unmaking.

    Both of these disasters happened despite the Nine's wishes, not because of the Nine's wishes.

    Both mortal and deity alike are nervously watching the human race, concerned that some idiot with delusions of grandeur will accidentally trigger a Third Unmaking. A few of my evil deities are toying with the idea of using a Third Unmaking to their advantage and hope that maybe if hypothetically 90% of all mortals died but only 50% of their followers died, they could come out ahead, but this is not something they would enact casually. They are more likely to allow an Unmaking to happen rather than try to trigger one themselves.

    I prefer "Save a village" or a "Save a kingdom" plots, so I'm not planning to have the PCs prevent a villain from causing the Third Unmaking. At least not anytime soon.
    Last edited by Scalenex; 2021-07-27 at 05:27 AM.

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