Damage Over Time cantrip

[TalksAlone]

Hi all. I was unsatisfied with Acid Splash and thought about creating a new acid damage cantrip. This got me thinking about d.o.t. effects in cantrips and I've decided to give home brewing a try:

Corrosive Spew

Conjuration Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V S
Duration: One round (see description)
Classes: Sorcerer, Wizard
You spew a stream of corrosive gas that adheres to a creature or object in range. Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, if the target is a creature, it takes 1d8 acid damage at the start of it's next turn. If the target is an object the damage takes place at the start of the caster's next turn. The target may not take damage from more than one instance of this spell. This spell's duration increases by one round when you reach 5th level (two rounds), 11th level (three rounds), 17th level (four rounds).


Thoughts?

...

Edit: Thanks to the discussion I've arrived at a version of this I'm happy with. It's all the way down so I thought if anyone else wants to use it here it is:


Corrosive Spew

Conjuration Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V S
Duration: Instantaneous
Classes: Sorcerer, Wizard
You spew a glob of corrosive jelly that adheres to a creature or object in range that is not alredy under the effect of Corrosive Spew. The target must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 1d6 acid damage. Additionally, for a number of rounds equal to your proficiency bonus the target takes another 1d6 acid damage at the start of each of your turns. This effect ends if a creature within 5ft of the target takes an action to scrape off the acid.

If the target is an object that is being held or worn, the creature rolls the save instead. The corrosive jelly leaves faint yellow fumes with a strong chemical smell upon it's targets. The damage dealt at the start of each of your turns increases by 1d6 when you reach 5th level (2d6), 11th level (3d6), and 17th level (4d6)

My thanks to all

[quindraco]

Hi all. I was unsatisfied with Acid Splash and thought about creating a new acid damage cantrip. This got me thinking about d.o.t. effects in cantrips and I've decided to give home brewing a try:

Corrosive Spew

Conjuration Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V S
Duration: One round (see description)
Classes: Sorcerer, Wizard
You spew a stream of corrosive gas that adheres to a creature or object in range. Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, if the target is a creature, it takes 1d8 acid damage at the start of it's next turn. If the target is an object the damage takes place at the start of the caster's next turn. The target may not take damage from more than one instance of this spell. This spell's duration increases by one round when you reach 5th level (two rounds), 11th level (three rounds), 17th level (four rounds).


Thoughts?

This spell is incredibly underpowered due to dealing perfectly normal cantrip damage, but on a delay (which is exacerbated by not stacking itself, although things never stack with themselves normally). If you want a deliberately weak NPC to field it, perfectly reasonable, but I wouldn't expect any PC to pick it up.

I would suggest you make the spell Alchemist's Fire/Tasha's Caustic Brew: cut the damage to 1d4, and have it last until someone takes an action to fix it. Change the level scaling to allowing multiple targets, like Eldritch Blast.

[MoiMagnus]

Yeah, definitely underpowered. With your wording, I'd expect d12 for the damage, so that it's more in line with "Toll the dead" damage rather than "Sacred flame".

Even then, it will be on the weaker side after level 5.

[TalksAlone]

This spell is incredibly underpowered due to dealing perfectly normal cantrip damage, but on a delay (which is exacerbated by not stacking itself, although things never stack with themselves normally). If you want a deliberately weak NPC to field it, perfectly reasonable, but I wouldn't expect any PC to pick it up.

I would suggest you make the spell Alchemist's Fire/Tasha's Caustic Brew: cut the damage to 1d4, and have it last until someone takes an action to fix it. Change the level scaling to allowing multiple targets, like Eldritch Blast.

So, if I may, the version you'd be happy with would be something along the lines of:

Corrosive Spew

Conjuration Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V S
Duration: One minute (I took the liberty to fix a time)
Classes: Sorcerer, Wizard
You spew a stream of corrosive gas that adheres to a creature or object in range. Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, if the target is a creature, it takes 1d4 acid damage at the start of it's next turn. If the target is an object the damage takes place at the start of the caster's next turn. A creature may take an action to scrape off the acid, ending the effect.
The spell creates more than one stream when you reach higher levels: two streams at 5th level, three streams at 11th level, and four streams at 17th level. You can direct the streams at the same target or at different ones. Make a separate attack roll for each stream.

[loki_ragnarock]

So, if I may, the version you'd be happy with would be something along the lines of:

Corrosive Spew

Conjuration Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V S
Duration: One minute (I took the liberty to fix a time)
Classes: Sorcerer, Wizard
You spew a stream of corrosive gas that adheres to a creature or object in range. Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, if the target is a creature, it takes 1d4 acid damage at the start of it's next turn. If the target is an object the damage takes place at the start of the caster's next turn. A creature may take an action to scrape off the acid, ending the effect.
The spell creates more than one stream when you reach higher levels: two streams at 5th level, three streams at 11th level, and four streams at 17th level. You can direct the streams at the same target or at different ones. Make a separate attack roll for each stream.

It's could be good in tier one as an way to get enemies to burn actions; that part I like. There's a niche as a set and forget way to create consistent, if trivial concentration checks, too. There's also a narrower niche in the hit and run wear down style, but being able to remove it with an action makes it less suitable for that sort of dynamic.

But HP scaling is such that something will always decide to take the trifling damage pretty much every time once past tier 1. Unless you expect the ability to stack on the same creature, which it typically wouldn't with the way magic works.

I don't know. There's something there, but one to four damage vs. an action makes alot of sense for a goblin (CR1/4, 7hp), less for a gnoll (CR1/2, 22hp), very little for a gibbering mouther (CR 2, 67hp), and no sense at all for a Hill Giant (CR 5, 105hp).

Things that'll hit the upper end of tier one aren't really going to care about 1d4 damage to worry with getting it off.

(The monsters in question just happened to be near each other in the 'G' section of the MM, is all.)

[Contrast]

I would recommend against this not for any balancing reasons but as an intrinsic design issue.

Delayed effects get forgotten about then remembered midway through another turn/interrupt someone elses turn and generally disrupt the flow of combat and, in my opinion, should be kept to an absolute minimum.

Spells and abilities that do this are fine because they are intrinsically limited by the resources expended to use them. Having the effect on a cantrip means you're potentially doing to have to deal with this faff every turn in addition to remembering how many turns the effect has been active on each target.

I honestly already find it somewhat objectionable to have cantrips with saves.

Player: I cast Toll the Dead. DC15 Wis.
DM: ...
*pause*
DM: Oh right, its a save. *rolls*

Is already a very common experience at tables I play at and not one I'd be keen to see more variations of.

[Yakk]

Corrosive Cloud

Conjuration Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V S
Duration: One minute
Classes: Sorcerer, Wizard
A cloud of Corrosive vapors starts to form at a location of your choosing, spreading out over 10'. If a creature is within the Cloud that was created before the end of your last turn at the start of your turn, it takes 1d12 acid damage. The damage increases by 1d12 at level 5, 11 and 17. The cloud lasts for 1 minute, until you cast this spell again, or if it is dispersed by strong winds.

That is a kind of damage-over-time, but the check is always done on your turn (at the start of it), and avoiding it is just walking away.

[PhantomSoul]

I would recommend against this not for any balancing reasons but as an intrinsic design issue.

Delayed effects get forgotten about then remembered midway through another turn/interrupt someone elses turn and generally disrupt the flow of combat and, in my opinion, should be kept to an absolute minimum.

Spells and abilities that do this are fine because they are intrinsically limited by the resources expended to use them. Having the effect on a cantrip means you're potentially doing to have to deal with this faff every turn in addition to remembering how many turns the effect has been active on each target.

Agreed, definitely has a reasonable chance of getting forgotten

I honestly already find it somewhat objectionable to have cantrips with saves.

Player: I cast Toll the Dead. DC15 Wis.
DM: ...
*pause*
DM: Oh right, its a save. *rolls*

Is already a very common experience at tables I play at and not one I'd be keen to see more variations of.

I expected it was going to be a balance thing, where going outside of targetting AC (a big benefit by being able to target weaknesses, and it's where you get a bump relative to martials who have limited or no such options) should have a cost (e.g. spell slots, limited-use abilities).

[quindraco]

I would recommend against this not for any balancing reasons but as an intrinsic design issue.

Delayed effects get forgotten about then remembered midway through another turn/interrupt someone elses turn and generally disrupt the flow of combat and, in my opinion, should be kept to an absolute minimum.

Spells and abilities that do this are fine because they are intrinsically limited by the resources expended to use them. Having the effect on a cantrip means you're potentially doing to have to deal with this faff every turn in addition to remembering how many turns the effect has been active on each target.

I honestly already find it somewhat objectionable to have cantrips with saves.

Player: I cast Toll the Dead. DC15 Wis.
DM: ...
*pause*
DM: Oh right, its a save. *rolls*

Is already a very common experience at tables I play at and not one I'd be keen to see more variations of.

Why is there a pause? Does the DM not understand "DC 15 Wis"?

[quindraco]

So, if I may, the version you'd be happy with would be something along the lines of:

Corrosive Spew

Conjuration Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V S
Duration: One minute (I took the liberty to fix a time)
Classes: Sorcerer, Wizard
You spew a stream of corrosive gas that adheres to a creature or object in range. Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, if the target is a creature, it takes 1d4 acid damage at the start of it's next turn. If the target is an object the damage takes place at the start of the caster's next turn. A creature may take an action to scrape off the acid, ending the effect.
The spell creates more than one stream when you reach higher levels: two streams at 5th level, three streams at 11th level, and four streams at 17th level. You can direct the streams at the same target or at different ones. Make a separate attack roll for each stream.

Hitting 1 target with multiple streams won't do anything as written, and on reflection, it should be able to crit if it rolls to hit. I don't like the duration, so let me provide a reworking myself. Also, it could do with some love in other areas, but I'll do that myself. I'll also tidy up the bookkeeping, so the PC and the DM don't need to worry about distinct creature and object mechanics.

Corrosive Spew

Conjuration Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V S
Duration: Instantaneous
Classes: Sorcerer, Wizard
You spew a glob of corrosive jelly that adheres to a creature or object in range. Make a ranged spell attack. On a hit, each target takes 1d4 acid damage, and at the start of each of your turns, it takes another 1d4 acid damage. A creature may take an action to scrape off the acid, ending the effect.
The spell creates more than one glob when you reach higher levels: two at 5th level, three at 11th level, and four at 17th level. Make a separate attack roll for each glob, each of which can target any creature or object in range.

Loki_ragnarock's concerns are valid, still. We can add utility to this spell by making it an absolute monster at destroying objects, by having it bypass AC - you can switch it from being a ranged spell attack to attacking dexterity saves to do this. If it works that way, it's a lot easier to coat e.g. a steel object in acid. But I think the above version is reasonably useful as a middle-of-the-road cantrip, neither too underpowered to credibly exist nor particularly strong.

[Aimeryan]

Perhaps consider a wheat-and-chessboard approach; double the damage each round until cleared. At higher levels start the damage at a step further along. This should allow the damage to scale for any threat, and essentially gives a delayed action-cost to the enemy.

[TalksAlone]

Corrosive Spew

Conjuration Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V S
Duration: Instantaneous
Classes: Sorcerer, Wizard
You spew a glob of corrosive jelly that adheres to a creature or object in range. Make a ranged spell attack. On a hit, each target takes 1d4 acid damage, and at the start of each of your turns, it takes another 1d4 acid damage. A creature may take an action to scrape off the acid, ending the effect.
The spell creates more than one glob when you reach higher levels: two at 5th level, three at 11th level, and four at 17th level. Make a separate attack roll for each glob, each of which can target any creature or object in range.

I feel like this is getting very close.

This version is honestly pretty good already and worth taking if you want something with this type of capability/damage type. I also love the fact that at this power level it isn't an auto-include cantrip.

But upon further reflection I'd say multiple targeting damage that stacks may just get annoying to keep track of for an entire combat. Though a spell like this inherently requires more attention than a fire and forget cantrip, I think it still would have too much micromanagement.

So, how's this:



Corrosive Spew

Conjuration Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V S
Duration: Instantaneous
Classes: Sorcerer, Wizard
You spew a glob of corrosive jelly that adheres to a creature or object in range. Make a ranged spell attack. On a hit, the target takes 1d6 acid damage, and at the start of each of your turns, it takes another 1d6 acid damage. A creature may take an action to scrape off the acid, ending the effect.

This spell’s damage on hit and at the start of each your turns both increase by 1d6 when you reach 5th level (2d6), 11th level (3d6), and 17th level (4d6).



I believe this way there's no way RAW (but also no need) to stack the secondary damage from multiple Corrosive Spews on the same creature, reducing guesswork as combat goes on. The damage seems solid, not overly strong, the utility is there.

The suggestion of making it a Dex save instead is pretty damn cool also.

[Ettina]

Why is there a pause? Does the DM not understand "DC 15 Wis"?

I'm just shaking my head at the idea of a DM who finds PCs triggering saving throws in the enemies confusing.

[Contrast]

I'm just shaking my head at the idea of a DM who finds PCs triggering saving throws in the enemies confusing.

I suspect its a combination of having other things on their mind regarding what the enemies will get up to so they're mentally checked out waiting for the PC to roll some dice to resolve whatever their action is or umm and ahh about expending a spell slot and are caught off guard when the PC turn is 2 seconds in and they need to roll some dice.

It happens fairly frequently across most of the groups I've been part of but perhaps that's a more unique experience than I thought!

[loki_ragnarock]

I feel like this is getting very close.

This version is honestly pretty good already and worth taking if you want something with this type of capability/damage type. I also love the fact that at this power level it isn't an auto-include cantrip.

But upon further reflection I'd say multiple targeting damage that stacks may just get annoying to keep track of for an entire combat. Though a spell like this inherently requires more attention than a fire and forget cantrip, I think it still would have too much micromanagement.

So, how's this:



Corrosive Spew

Conjuration Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V S
Duration: Instantaneous
Classes: Sorcerer, Wizard
You spew a glob of corrosive jelly that adheres to a creature or object in range. Make a ranged spell attack. On a hit, the target takes 1d6 acid damage, and at the start of each of your turns, it takes another 1d6 acid damage. A creature may take an action to scrape off the acid, ending the effect.

This is more on the right track, I think. It's better than Witch Bolt*.

This spell’s damage on hit and at the start of each your turns both increase by 1d6 when you reach 5th level (2d6), 11th level (3d6), and 17th level (4d6).

Except I think that this might be skewing too hard in the other direction; it's like getting a cantrip off every round for free until they burn an action to end taking a cantrip every round. That might be too much better than Witch Bolt*.

So if you want to preserve the feeling that this is more about continual damage while dialing it back, make the bonus damage from level up *only* apply to the continual damage effect. The trade off is more damage later, rather than equal damage now with more damage later in addition.

So maybe something like:

This spell’s damage on hit and at the start of each your turns both increase(s) by 1d6 when you reach 5th level (2d6), 11th level (3d6), and 17th level (4d6).

I think that'll strike the balance; low initial damage stays low, still kills goblins, maybe. But keeping the damage high for the subsequent cements the theme while also increasing the likelihood of something taking the time to scrape it off. Now it's merely very good instead of the opposite of Witch Bolt*.

*(Witch Bolt in this instance isn't referring to the actual spell effect, but the feeling Witch Bolt evokes; that this is a trap option. I'm hoping it'll catch on if I can get enough cool kids who smoke in the bathroom to start using it in that fashion.)

[JackPhoenix]

It's could be good in tier one as an way to get enemies to burn actions; that part I like. There's a niche as a set and forget way to create consistent, if trivial concentration checks, too. There's also a narrower niche in the hit and run wear down style, but being able to remove it with an action makes it less suitable for that sort of dynamic.

But HP scaling is such that something will always decide to take the trifling damage pretty much every time once past tier 1. Unless you expect the ability to stack on the same creature, which it typically wouldn't with the way magic works.

I don't know. There's something there, but one to four damage vs. an action makes alot of sense for a goblin (CR1/4, 7hp), less for a gnoll (CR1/2, 22hp), very little for a gibbering mouther (CR 2, 67hp), and no sense at all for a Hill Giant (CR 5, 105hp).

Things that'll hit the upper end of tier one aren't really going to care about 1d4 damage to worry with getting it off.

(The monsters in question just happened to be near each other in the 'G' section of the MM, is all.)

Not to mention that if it does damage at the start of the target's turn, it has to be some other creature's action. The target can't remove the acid before it takes damage.

[stoutstien]

Easiest way would probably rework melfs acid arrow into a cantrip.

[TalksAlone]

Except I think that this might be skewing too hard in the other direction; it's like getting a cantrip off every round for free until they burn an action to end taking a cantrip every round. That might be too much better than Witch Bolt*.

I think this is the crux of the balancing issue. My gut tells me the problem is that it doesn't offer a defined limit to make an informed decision on taking the damage or taking the action.

In practice, since it lasts until someone takes the "scrape action", it may just feel like taking the "scrape action" is always correct. Except the exchange ends up always in favor of the caster because the initial damage always takes place: they both take an action, the target takes full cantrip damage.

So if you want to preserve the feeling that this is more about continual damage while dialing it back, make the bonus damage from level up *only* apply to the continual damage effect. The trade off is more damage later, rather than equal damage now with more damage later in addition.

While I think this solution is a step in the right direction, I don't think it's enough still.

Some points I have thought of:

First off there should be a duration for the recurring damage. At least so the target can be like "ok, my action is more important than Xd6 acid damage over Y number of rounds". I think "number of rounds = proficiency bonus" would be fair.

There should also be specification that landing a second one ends the first effect to avoid multiple PCs stacking Corrosive Spews on a BBEG.

I'm convinced that this should be a save spell, and a Dex-based one for the following reasons:

a) AC boosts are rarer in monster statblocks then Magic Resistance and other save-boosting abilities.
b) Inherently 5e has a bias in favor of the creature rolling the dice, since the roll succeeds with a number equal to or higher than the target number and only fails with a number lower than the target number. Plus there are more ways to manipulate rolls than DCs.
c) The Dodge action would grant advantage against the spell, similar to the disadvantage it would impose on the spell attack. So it's functionally very similar. Cover would also count.
d) No crits helps dial the volatility down a bit more and simplifies damage calculation.

If the target is an object being worn or held, it should get a save using the wielder's bonus. Especially because the RAW for this is a bit vague.

Also, the spell's use as a "lockpicking" mechanism should have a slight drawback or obvious effect that gives away it's use in stealthy missions. I'd say a faint sizzle and a strong smell of chemicals is enough.

With all that being said here goes:


Corrosive Spew

Conjuration Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V S
Duration: Instantaneous
Classes: Sorcerer, Wizard
You spew a glob of corrosive jelly that adheres to a creature or object in range. The target must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 1d6 acid damage. Additionally, for a number of rounds equal to your proficiency bonus the target takes another 1d6 acid damage at the start of each of your turns. This effect ends if another instance of Corrosive Spew affects the target or if a creature takes an action to scrape off the acid.

If the target is an object that is being held or worn, the creature rolls the save instead. The corrosive jelly leaves faint yellow fumes with a strong chemical smell upon it's targets. The spell’s damage at the start of each your turns both increases by 1d6 when you reach 5th level (2d6), 11th level (3d6), and 17th level (4d6).


It's a bit wordy, but I'm happy with it.

[Segev]

Corrosive Cloud

Conjuration Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V S
Duration: One minute
Classes: Sorcerer, Wizard
A cloud of Corrosive vapors starts to form at a location of your choosing, spreading out over 10'. If a creature is within the Cloud that was created before the end of your last turn at the start of your turn, it takes 1d12 acid damage. The damage increases by 1d12 at level 5, 11 and 17. The cloud lasts for 1 minute, until you cast this spell again, or if it is dispersed by strong winds.

That is a kind of damage-over-time, but the check is always done on your turn (at the start of it), and avoiding it is just walking away.

For this version, I would just make the damage happen at the start of each of your turns to all creatures and objects in the area. Creatures have the chance to move out of it, and maybe get a save to avoid it anyway. Making it the start of your turns means that the first round is "wasted," as is the design intent that justifies ongoing d12s thereafter. It also makes it a light BFC effect, creating a zone people might want to avoid.


For the targeted glob version, I suggest something more like this:

---

Corrosive Spew
Conjuration Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous
Classes: Sorcerer, Wizard
You spew a glob of corrosive jelly that adheres to a creature or object in range. The target must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 1d6 acid damage. If the target took damage from this spell on your last turn, you only miss on a natural 1 on the attack roll as your magic instead intensifies the acid already on them. Any creature may spend an action scraping it off of the target; if they do, the target does not count as having taken damage from this spell on your last turn.

The spell's damage increases by 1d6 at level 5 (to 2d6), and again at levels 11 (3d6) and 17 (4d6).

---

The idea here is that you still have to spend actions on casting it, but you don't have to worry about missing if you keep focusing it on the same target and that target (or an ally of said target) doesn't spend an action scraping it off. It still misses on a natural 1, but in return also has a small chance of critical hitting, still.

[DwarfFighter]

---

Corrosive Spew
Conjuration Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous
Classes: Sorcerer, Wizard
You spew a glob of corrosive jelly that adheres to a creature or object in range. The target must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 1d6 acid damage. If the target took damage from this spell on your last turn, you only miss on a natural 1 on the attack roll as your magic instead intensifies the acid already on them. Any creature may spend an action scraping it off of the target; if they do, the target does not count as having taken damage from this spell on your last turn.

The spell's damage increases by 1d6 at level 5 (to 2d6), and again at levels 11 (3d6) and 17 (4d6).

---

The idea here is that you still have to spend actions on casting it, but you don't have to worry about missing if you keep focusing it on the same target and that target (or an ally of said target) doesn't spend an action scraping it off. It still misses on a natural 1, but in return also has a small chance of critical hitting, still.

It seems like you are trying to work in a spell attack roll here, but you've kept the Dexterity saving throw. What's the plan here, the caster makes a ranged melee attack roll, and if that hits the target gets a Dexterity saving throw in addition to being protected by his AC?

Perhaps something like this:

Make a ranged spell attack against the target. If the spell hits the target takes 1d6 acid damage and is marked until the end of your next turn. While the target is marked your ranged spell attack rolls for Corrosive Spew that targets them will only miss on the roll of a natural 1. A creature within 5ft. of the target can spend an action scraping off the corrosive substance, end

-DF

[Segev]

It seems like you are trying to work in a spell attack roll here, but you've kept the Dexterity saving throw. What's the plan here, the caster makes a ranged melee attack roll, and if that hits the target gets a Dexterity saving throw in addition to being protected by his AC?

Perhaps something like this:

Make a ranged spell attack against the target. If the spell hits the target takes 1d6 acid damage and is marked until the end of your next turn. While the target is marked your ranged spell attack rolls for Corrosive Spew that targets them will only miss on the roll of a natural 1. A creature within 5ft. of the target can spend an action scraping off the corrosive substance, end

-DF

Woops, no, there shouldn't be a dexterity save in mine.

---

You spew a glob of corrosive jelly that adheres to a creature or object in range. Make a ranged spell attack; on a hit, the target takes 1d6 acid damage. If the target took damage from this spell on your last turn, you only miss on a natural 1 on the attack roll as your magic instead intensifies the acid already on them. Any creature may spend an action scraping it off of the target; if they do, the target does not count as having taken damage from this spell on your last turn.

The spell's damage increases by 1d6 at level 5 (to 2d6), and again at levels 11 (3d6) and 17 (4d6).

---

Your wording works, too; I was trying to avoid adding a "mark" or something, but I suppose it doesn't hurt to add it for clarity.

[Yakk]

For this version, I would just make the damage happen at the start of each of your turns to all creatures and objects in the area. Creatures have the chance to move out of it, and maybe get a save to avoid it anyway. Making it the start of your turns means that the first round is "wasted," as is the design intent that justifies ongoing d12s thereafter. It also makes it a light BFC effect, creating a zone people might want to avoid.

There is readied action problem, in that you can ready to cast it immediately before your turn, and land it pretty reliably with no chance of dodging.

Hence, it works on clouds that existed at the end of the last turn.

[Segev]

There is readied action problem, in that you can ready to cast it immediately before your turn, and land it pretty reliably with no chance of dodging.

Hence, it works on clouds that existed at the end of the last turn.

Could make it "end of each of your turns" instead, then, in which case readying it would not trigger it until your next turn after the readied action goes off.

[luuma]

Dealing 1d6 damage, followed by a further 1d6 for two rounds, with no concentration or chance of missing, is probably far too powerful for a cantrip. For each single hit, cantrips do a maximum of 1d12 damage. 3d6 is only 3 less damage than the 1st level spell Chromatic Orb does. Chromatic orb is a pretty damn strong 1st level spell, and this cantrip really isn't that much weaker!

I feel like Witch Bolt's wording works fine for this effect - it's simple enough for a cantrip, without being too strong.

---

Corrosive Spew

Conjuration Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
Classes: Sorcerer, Wizard

You spew a glob of corrosive jelly that adheres to its target. Make a ranged spell attack against a creature or object within range. On a hit, the target takes 1d4 acid damage and is coated in acid for the duration. Additionally, for the duration, you can use your action to intensify the acid again, dealing 1d8 acid damage to the target.

Any creature within 5 feet of the target can use its action to scrape the acid off, ending the spell.

The spell's initial damage, and the damage you can deal on subsequent turns both increase by 1d4 and 1d8 respectively when you reach 5th level (2d4 and 2d8), 11th level (3d4 and 3d8) and 17th level (4d4 and 4d8).

---

Alternately, for the cloud effect, copy Create Bonfire. In my opinion, it should not deal any more acid damage than create bonfire - fewer creatures have resistance to acid damage than to fire damage.

[Segev]

Dealing 1d6 damage, followed by a further 1d6 for two rounds, with no concentration or chance of missing, is probably far too powerful for a cantrip. For each single hit, cantrips do a maximum of 1d12 damage. 3d6 is only 3 less damage than the 1st level spell Chromatic Orb does. Chromatic orb is a pretty damn strong 1st level spell, and this cantrip really isn't that much weaker!

I feel like Witch Bolt's wording works fine for this effect - it's simple enough for a cantrip, without being too strong.

---

Corrosive Spew

Conjuration Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
Classes: Sorcerer, Wizard

You spew a glob of corrosive jelly that adheres to its target. Make a ranged spell attack against a creature or object within range. On a hit, the target takes 1d4 acid damage and is coated in acid for the duration. Additionally, for the duration, you can use your action to intensify the acid again, dealing 1d8 acid damage to the target.

Any creature within 5 feet of the target can use its action to scrape the acid off, ending the spell.

The spell's initial damage, and the damage you can deal on subsequent turns both increase by 1d4 and 1d8 respectively when you reach 5th level (2d4 and 2d8), 11th level (3d4 and 3d8) and 17th level (4d4 and 4d8).

---

Alternately, for the cloud effect, copy Create Bonfire. In my opinion, it should not deal any more acid damage than create bonfire - fewer creatures have resistance to acid damage than to fire damage.

I agree with the repeat damage effect. It's simpler than my wording. I like my wording (and the refinement somebody suggested later) because it leaves a small chance to miss and a small chance to crit, but this is definitely simpler. I do wonder why this goes to 1d8 on subsequent rounds, but I suppose making it use your Concentration is a big cost that justifies it. (In fact, the fact that it costs Concentration makes the 1d4 almost worthless unless you don't have any buffs you maintain.)

[luuma]

I agree with the repeat damage effect. It's simpler than my wording. I like my wording (and the refinement somebody suggested later) because it leaves a small chance to miss and a small chance to crit, but this is definitely simpler. I do wonder why this goes to 1d8 on subsequent rounds, but I suppose making it use your Concentration is a big cost that justifies it. (In fact, the fact that it costs Concentration makes the 1d4 almost worthless unless you don't have any buffs you maintain.)

I can see what you're getting at - I think it's definitely fine to use 1d6 for both rolls (and, indeed, to use your wording). The added RNG is definitely a major benefit of your wording, that mine lacks - if it was strong, this cantrip could make combat very samey without that!

All of the reasons I deviated from it are pure personal preference - personally, I try to make cantrips very simple and quick with as few rolls as possible. Also when I make a spell I prefer to hurl the majority of power into its unique niche, and with tihs particular one I fretted a bit about overshadowing witch bolt - which is, of course, hard because witch bolt is absolutely dreadful lmao.

Another alternative might be to make it do 1d8 initial damage and 1d8 subsequent damage, but require only a bonus action to scrape it off or repeat the damage. This makes it uniquely good against incapacitated foes and surfaces, and not much cop outside of that. At that point, though, it's essentially just create bonfire.

[TalksAlone]

Dealing 1d6 damage, followed by a further 1d6 for two rounds, with no concentration or chance of missing, is probably far too powerful for a cantrip. For each single hit, cantrips do a maximum of 1d12 damage. 3d6 is only 3 less damage than the 1st level spell Chromatic Orb does. Chromatic orb is a pretty damn strong 1st level spell, and this cantrip really isn't that much weaker!

Your point is compelling, it does appear to do too much damage. Let's think multiple rounds:

Say I ,as a 3rd level 16 INT Wizard, can either use Firebolt or Corrosive Spew against an Orc.

That's +5 to hit and DC 13 Dexterity Save against an Orc's AC of 13 and a +1 Dex save and 15 hp.

- I hit Firebolt upon rolling an 8 or higher attack roll (60% chance).
- I land a Corrosive Spew upon an enemy's roll of 11 or lower saving throw (55% chance).

Turn One:

• Firebolt every round- 60% chance to land 1d10 damage, so average of 3.3 damage.
• Casting Corrosive Spew once - 55% chance to land 1d6, so average of 1.925 damage.
• Casting Corrosive Spew every round - 55% chance to land 1d6, so average of 1.925 damage.

Turn Two and Up:

• Firebolt - 60% chance to land 1d10 damage, so average of 3.3 damage (orc dead in 5 rounds)
• Corrosive Spew once (acid not removed) - 1d6 damage, so average 3.5 damage (orc takes 8.925 damage)
• Corrosive Spew once (acid removed) - 0 (orc takes 1.925 damage, one action disabled)
• Corrosive Spew every round (acid not removed) - 1d6 (3.5) damage, plus 55% chance to land 1d6 (1.925), so average of 5.425 damage (orc dead in 4 rounds)
• Corrosive Spew every round (acid removed) - 55% chance to land 1d6, so average of 1.925 damage. (orc dead in 8 rounds, actions disabled)

All in all you are correct, Corrosive Spew as I wrote is better than Firebolt. How much better? By casting the spell every turn and having the orc never take an action to remove the acid (i.e. act normaly), the orc dies about one turn earlier.

That is not the intent of the spell, it shouldn't outperform Firebolt round by round DPR. So there's our problem.

Solution A:

Change the damage dice to d4s. We would then have:

Turn One:

• Firebolt every round- 60% chance to land 1d10 damage, so average of 3.3 damage.
• Casting Corrosive Spew every round - 55% chance to land 1d4, so average of 1.375 damage.

Turn Two and Up:

• Firebolt - 60% chance to land 1d10 damage, so average of 3.3 damage (orc dead in 5 rounds)
• Corrosive Spew every round (acid not removed) - 1d4 (2.5) damage, plus 55% chance to land 1d6 (1.375), so average of 3.875 damage (orc dead in 5 rounds)

Solution B:

We add a line saying "A creature cannot be targeted by Corrosive Spew until the spell ends". Thus we can't pile damage every turn and still let the cantrip do what's intended to: slowly grind enemies.

I prefer Solution B so far.

What about scaling?

Let's compare damage potential:

Corrosive Spew
1st level - 1d6 + 1d6 for two rounds (10.5 damage in 3 rounds)
5th level - 1d6 + 2d6 for three rounds (24.5 damage in 4 rounds)
9th level - 1d6 + 2d6 for four rounds (30.5 damage in 5 rounds)
11th level - 1d6 + 3d6 for four rounds (45.5 damage in 5 rounds)
13th level - 1d6 + 3d6 for five rounds (57.5 damage in 6 rounds)
17th level - 1d6 + 4d6 for six rounds (87.5 damage in 7 rounds)

Firebolt
1st level - 1d10 (16.5 damage in 3 rounds)
5th level - 2d10 (44 damage in 4 rounds)
9th level - 2d10 (55 damage in 5 rounds)
11th level - 3d10 (82 damage in 5 rounds)
13th level - 3d10 (99 damage in 6 rounds, )
17th level - 4d10 (154 damage in 7 rounds)

Number of firebolts for equivalent(ish) damage:
1st level - about 2 firebolts
5th level - about 2 firebolts
9th level - about 3 firebolts
11th level - about 3 firebolts
13th level - about 4 firebolts
17th level - about 4 firebolts

Therefore Firebolt can do the same damage considerably faster. So, with solution B implemented, whatever you'd kill with one Corrosive Spew is killed 1 and up to 3 rounds earlier by Firebolt. Also remember that this is not considering crits for Firebolt and assuming the best outcome for Corrosive Spew's damage, as in enemies not taking an action to remove the effect (possibly killing the caster in the meantime).

In my mind that is a fair trade-off, so I wouldn't necessarily lower the damage.

[luuma]

--snip--

In my mind that is a fair trade-off, so I wouldn't necessarily lower the damage.

Talks, I don't think this is a fair comparison. What you've shown here is that one single casting of corrosive spew, costing one action, deals similar damage to 2-3 castings of firebolt, costing multiple actions.

You shouldn't really be comparing three rounds of firebolt to three rounds of corrosive spew, you should be comparing three rounds of firebolt to one round of corrosive spew and two rounds of firebolt - because casters get to learn multiple cantrips, and nobody's just going to cast corrosive spew and then sit still for two rounds!

Combat lasts about 3 rounds, so let's see how that shakes out.

For a combat lasting 3 turns at 1st level:
3 firebolt: 3d10 (16.5)

1 spew 2 firebolt: 3d6+2d10 (21.5)

For a combat lasting 3 turns at 5th level:

3 firebolt: 6d10 (33)

1 spew 2 firebolt: 5d6+4d10 (39.5)


It's also worth mentioning that most casters don't cast cantrips every turn - they'll swap between cantrips and spells. A caster using 1 cantrip and 2 spells in a fight will get considerably more power out of corrosive brew than out of firebolt - almost twice as much.

Your version of the cantrip, where it deals damage over time without any cost to action economy, is simply far, far too powerful in my mind - the cantrip should do 0 damage UNLESS the player uses their action to do so.

[Segev]

Talks, I don't think this is a fair comparison. What you've shown here is that one single casting of corrosive spew, costing one action, deals similar damage to 2-3 castings of firebolt, costing multiple actions.

You shouldn't really be comparing three rounds of firebolt to three rounds of corrosive spew, you should be comparing three rounds of firebolt to one round of corrosive spew and two rounds of firebolt - because casters get to learn multiple cantrips, and nobody's just going to cast corrosive spew and then sit still for two rounds!

Combat lasts about 3 rounds, so let's see how that shakes out.

For a combat lasting 3 turns at 1st level:
3 firebolt: 3d10 (16.5)

1 spew 2 firebolt: 3d6+2d10 (21.5)

For a combat lasting 3 turns at 5th level:

3 firebolt: 6d10 (33)

1 spew 2 firebolt: 5d6+4d10 (39.5)


It's also worth mentioning that most casters don't cast cantrips every turn - they'll swap between cantrips and spells. A caster using 1 cantrip and 2 spells in a fight will get considerably more power out of corrosive brew than out of firebolt - almost twice as much.

Your version of the cantrip, where it deals damage over time without any cost to action economy, is simply far, far too powerful in my mind - the cantrip should do 0 damage UNLESS the player uses their action to do so.

This is one reason most DoT spells in 5e cost some sort of action to redo them.

I advocate for this spell to be a normal attack roll to hit, and have the "rider" be that you auto-hit unless you roll a natural 1 on subsequent rounds as long as it hasn't been scraped off or you haven't failed to deal damage with it within the last round.

It gets the "recurring" feel but still costs actions normally.

[sayaijin]

This is one reason most DoT spells in 5e cost some sort of action to redo them.

I advocate for this spell to be a normal attack roll to hit, and have the "rider" be that you auto-hit unless you roll a natural 1 on subsequent rounds as long as it hasn't been scraped off or you haven't failed to deal damage with it within the last round.

It gets the "recurring" feel but still costs actions normally.

I agree that the subsequent rounds need some sort of action. How about this:


Corrosive Spew

Conjuration Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
Classes: Sorcerer, Wizard
You spew a glob of corrosive jelly that adheres to a creature or object in range. The target must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 1d6 acid damage. Additionally, as an action on subsequent turns, you can grow the spell - dealing 1d6 more damage than the previous round. The spell ends if another instance of Corrosive Spew affects the target, or if the target or another creature within 5ft of it uses an action to scrape the acid off.

At higher levels:
The spell's initial damage is increased by 1d6 at 5th level (2d6), 11th level (3d6), and 17th level (4d6).



If the enemy or one of its henchmen use an action to end the spell, then that's a good rider. If they don't scrape it off, then it can deal increasingly more damage each round - potentially dealing an eventual 9d6 extra damage (13d6 at level 17) if both the spell and combat last the whole minute. The only issue is that this may become the MO for the player Every.Single.Combat