Dastana

[schreier]

From everything I've read, it sounds like the Dastana (Arms & Equipment guide / AE&G / Dragon 318 pg 42) grant +1 shield ac that stacks with shield and armor bonuses, but generally the magical enhancement bonus on the armors does not stack?

So you could wear a mithral chain shirt, +1 dastana, and a +1 animated shield to gain 4+2+2 (8) ac?

What is the general thought about dastana taking up the "arm" slot? It seems like it should? If it does, could you enchant it with a bracer ability like bracer of the blast barrier?

Or do people just avoid the dastana as cheese?

[DragonIceAdept]

Taking up the arm slot would make sense, but as written it doesn't appear to. The dastana is a useful tool, I don't consider it cheese personally.

[Darg]

The description in A&EG makes it sound like it's an add on to your traditional armor instead of being actual armor itself. Personally I wouldn't allow it to be enhanced as armor because of it. On top of that, there is also the rule that enhancement bonuses do not stack. Both the dastana and the armor would give you an enhancement bonus to your armor bonus. Only the normal armor bonus is given permission to stack.

[Ramza00]

Just a reminder this this is a 3.0 item with a pseudo 3.5 update. The armor and shield stuff were change in 3.5 if I recall. Thus a liminal space in regards to intent vs raw.

How we run it at my table is that a Magic Vestment on the Dastana ac bonus will not stack with Magic Vestment of the Buckler. Yet the base ac improve does improve, for it just augments your armor.

[schreier]

What do you all do about wear location? No location, can wear with bracers? Or takes the arm slot? If it takes the arm slot, can you put arm non-armor enchantments on it?

[Crake]

Just a reminder this this is a 3.0 item with a pseudo 3.5 update. The armor and shield stuff were change in 3.5 if I recall. Thus a liminal space in regards to intent vs raw.

How we run it at my table is that a Magic Vestment on the Dastana ac bonus will not stack with Magic Vestment of the Buckler. Yet the base ac improve does improve, for it just augments your armor.

Technically, the dastana provides an armor bonus, and so any enhancement bonus to the dastana should always stack with enhancement bonuses to your shield, but NOT to the base armor.

As such, wearing a chain shirt +1 chain shirt, a +1 Dastana, and a +1 buckler should result in an AC bonus of: +4 (Chain Shirt [armor base]), +1 (dastana [armor stacking]), +1 (Chain shirt [armor enhancement]), +1 (dastana [armor enhancement]) (does not stack with existing armor enhancement), +1 (buckler [shield base]), +1 (buckler [shield enhancement])

What do you all do about wear location? No location, can wear with bracers? Or takes the arm slot? If it takes the arm slot, can you put arm non-armor enchantments on it?

Takes the arm slot and can be enhanced as such, sticking to the regular ability stacking rules.

[schreier]

Pretty much where I was ... Seems like anyone in a chain shirt should pretty much always grab this?

I am going with a warlock with mithral chain shirt (reinforced), mithral fey craft animated heavy shield, and mithral dastana ... I think that is 9 ac without armor check penalty and no acf (can ignore the mithral shirt acf as warlock)

Reading the armor qualities in Dragon 358, it seems like you should be able to apply both reinforced and segmented to the same item. If you can, you could get a nonmagical mithral shirt with ac 5 and max dex of 7 for like 2100?

[KillianHawkeye]

But if the bonus from the dastana stacks with the one from an armor or shield, then the enhancement bonuses should stack as well. Because the enhancement bonuses on armor and shield don't interact with each other, they simply increase the armor's armor bonus and the shield's shield bonus.

What I find most interesting is that dastana are listed as shields, described as bracers, and provide a stacking armor bonus.

Anyway, no matter if you agree with stacking the enhancement bonuses or not, dastana should provide a good way to get additional magical armor special abilities at a lower cost (much like bracers of armor).

[liquidformat]

The description in A&EG makes it sound like it's an add on to your traditional armor instead of being actual armor itself. Personally I wouldn't allow it to be enhanced as armor because of it. On top of that, there is also the rule that enhancement bonuses do not stack. Both the dastana and the armor would give you an enhancement bonus to your armor bonus. Only the normal armor bonus is given permission to stack.

AFB but if I am remembering correctly they can be added to any light or medium armor and heavy armor technically already has them incorporated. In practice when using them I have always had them counting as bracers of armor and adjusting up by +1 AC. So they can take modifications of the bracer/arm slot or armor enhancements. Treating them that way functionally makes them the same as bracers of armor with slightly better AC.

[Crake]

But if the bonus from the dastana stacks with the one from an armor or shield, then the enhancement bonuses should stack as well. Because the enhancement bonuses on armor and shield don't interact with each other, they simply increase the armor's armor bonus and the shield's shield bonus.

What I find most interesting is that dastana are listed as shields, described as bracers, and provide a stacking armor bonus.

Anyway, no matter if you agree with stacking the enhancement bonuses or not, dastana should provide a good way to get additional magical armor special abilities at a lower cost (much like bracers of armor).

Dastana give a stacking bonus to armor, so if you added an enhancement bonus to dastana, it would apply to your armor bonus, which would then not stack with your armor's enhancement bonus to armor.

[KillianHawkeye]

Dastana give a stacking bonus to armor, so if you added an enhancement bonus to dastana, it would apply to your armor bonus, which would then not stack with your armor's enhancement bonus to armor.

If that was true, then enhancement bonuses to shields wouldn't stack either.

[Crake]

If that was true, then enhancement bonuses to shields wouldn't stack either.

Why not? the enhancement bonus is applying to your shield bonus, not your armor bonus? It's a bonus to an AC bonus, not an AC bonus itself.

[Khatoblepas]

Dastana give a stacking bonus to armor, so if you added an enhancement bonus to dastana, it would apply to your armor bonus, which would then not stack with your armor's enhancement bonus to armor.

A&EG says:

This pair of metal bracers can be worn in addition to some other types of armor to provide an additional armor bonus that stacks with both the foundation armor and any shield worn. You can wear dastana with padded, leather, or chain shirt armor. You need the Armor Proficiency (light) feat to wear dastana without penalty.

and the SRD says:

Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor), or ability score do not stack. Only the highest enhancement bonus applies.

Since the dastana and your armor are not the same object, they stack. You can't normally wear multiple suits of armor, but the dastana explicitly allows you to wear it with armor.

[schreier]

Dragon 318, the Oriental Adventures update to 3.5 on page 42, says:

"Both dastanas and chahar-ainas provide special armor bonuses to AC that stack with other armor bonuses granted by certain forms of light armor. However, it is still the case that only one enhancement bonus can apply to a character's armor bonus at any time. Thus. if a character wears +2 dastanas. a +1 chahar-ama, and +1 cloth armor, only the +2 bonus from the dastanas increases his AC. A character can still gain the benefit of special abilities attached to multiple pieces of armor, however, so a character wearing +2 balance dastanas and a +1 displacement chahar-aina has a +2 enhancement bonus to AC and can use the balance and displacement special abilities."

Basically it feels like a way to get cheap enhancements on armor while getting a free +1 AC

[Crake]

Basically it feels like a way to get cheap enhancements on armor while getting a free +1 AC

These already exist in the form of just applying special armor abilities to bracers of armor.

[schreier]

These already exist in the form of just applying special armor abilities to bracers of armor.

Except here you get an extra +1 to your armor class from the actual armor (not the magic bonus)

[Crake]

Except here you get an extra +1 to your armor class from the actual armor (not the magic bonus)

Yeah, assuming you're wearing appropriate armor. Bracers of armor on the other hand have the added benefit of being able to go up to +13 with special abilities, and having their AC apply to incorporeal touch attacks. It's also worth wondering how ghost touch would apply in this circumstance, would both the armor and the dastana need to be enchanted with ghost touch for it to apply universally? As a DM I would say yes, otherwise only the dastana/armor and their individual enhancement bonus (which doesn't stack to normal AC) would apply.

For example, if you had a +5 chain shirt, and then a +1 ghost touch dastana, you would only get +2 AC vs incorporeal, the base 1 from dastana, and the +1 from it's enhancement bonus.

[KillianHawkeye]

Why not? the enhancement bonus is applying to your shield bonus, not your armor bonus? It's a bonus to an AC bonus, not an AC bonus itself.

This is exactly why enhancement bonus on the dastana is useful even when you already have one on your armor and your shield. Thanks for understanding.

Dragon 318, the Oriental Adventures update to 3.5 on page 42, says:

"Both dastanas and chahar-ainas provide special armor bonuses to AC that stack with other armor bonuses granted by certain forms of light armor. However, it is still the case that only one enhancement bonus can apply to a character's armor bonus at any time. Thus. if a character wears +2 dastanas. a +1 chahar-ama, and +1 cloth armor, only the +2 bonus from the dastanas increases his AC. A character can still gain the benefit of special abilities attached to multiple pieces of armor, however, so a character wearing +2 balance dastanas and a +1 displacement chahar-aina has a +2 enhancement bonus to AC and can use the balance and displacement special abilities."

Basically it feels like a way to get cheap enhancements on armor while getting a free +1 AC

Oh. They should put that in a book, because I don't have Dragon Magazine and I've never seen this rule before.

[Darg]

Oh. They should put that in a book, because I don't have Dragon Magazine and I've never seen this rule before.

Well, it's just iterating the general rule that enhancement bonuses don't stack. Regardless of whether the dastana stacks with normal armor, it never gave permission for the enhancement bonuses to stack. The general rule is that same name bonuses don't stack regardless of source.

[rrwoods]

Well, it's just iterating the general rule that enhancement bonuses don't stack. Regardless of whether the dastana stacks with normal armor, it never gave permission for the enhancement bonuses to stack. The general rule is that same name bonuses don't stack regardless of source.

TBH without that quote this is clear as mud. "Enhancement bonuses don't stack" is too general a statement to be completely true. Obviously, an enhancement bonus to your Dexterity "stacks" with an enhancement bonus to your Strength, in the sense that both can apply at the same time and have their effects separately. This is a deliberately ridiculous example, but it demonstrates that the true version of the statement involves some mention of bonuses to *different numbers*. Something like, say, "enhancement bonuses to the same statistic don't stack" (or something). Then, the thing being argued over becomes (or has always been) what is "different" in this case?

Position 1: (Premise) The enhancement bonuses are both to the character's armor bonus. (Conclusion) They don't stack.

Position 2: (Premise) The enhancement bonuses are to the bonuses produced by the items, which are separate. (Conclusion) They do stack.

In absence of the quoted clarification, there's no text to support one of these positions over the other. Any argument (including all the ones presented here [EDIT: even the one in Dragon 318 itself]) that it's "clear" one way or the other necessarily involves stating one of the premises above, and those premises are NOT anywhere in the text.

[Nifft]

Glancing at the article in Dragon #318, it looks like the rules for this case are explicitly described:

Spoiler

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The pro gamer move would be to load up on special abilities, not enhancement bonus, which does not stack.

[KillianHawkeye]

Well, it's just iterating the general rule that enhancement bonuses don't stack. Regardless of whether the dastana stacks with normal armor, it never gave permission for the enhancement bonuses to stack. The general rule is that same name bonuses don't stack regardless of source.

No, because the enhancement bonuses would be applying to different armor bonuses, therefore stacking isn't a factor. Without the explicit exception they wrote into that Dragon Magazine article, I'd still be arguing it works. It is, as they say, the exception which proves the rule.

[animewatcha]

IIRC, the one item per slot thing refers to magical items. So you could wear a non-magical dastana as well as say armbands of strike and still get the AC from the dastana. The thing with if you are gonna use dastana and chahar-ama (or however it is spelled I can hardly ever get this right) if making use of reinforcement (dragon mag 358) to add an extra non-magical AC to each one that still stacks.

[schreier]

IIRC, the one item per slot thing refers to magical items. So you could wear a non-magical dastana as well as say armbands of strike and still get the AC from the dastana. The thing with if you are gonna use dastana and chahar-ama (or however it is spelled I can hardly ever get this right) if making use of reinforcement (dragon mag 358) to add an extra non-magical AC to each one that still stacks.

I tentatively ruled that reinforced wouldn't work since they're in the table as shields even though they stack with armor. The reinforced works with armor, which I believe is intended to not include shields