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2021-06-22, 12:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Information request: Forgotten Realms edition timeline, more
So, the various threads like, "what would you do if you woke up in the Forgotten Realms", "what universe would be good/bad to live in", "what class would you take IRL", etc, has left me realizing how much I don't know / remember (darn senility) about certain interactions.
So, here's what information I'm trying to compile:
What is the timeline on major "you might want to avoid these" events - *especially* edition changes - in the Forgotten Realms?
What canonical interactions are there between official D&D settings? Between those settings and Earth? Between those settings and other systems?
Which settings do various modules belong in by default?
Which settings canonically exist in multiple editions? Any timelines on those other settings' edition changes?
And, lastly, the thing I *don't* expect to find, is there any canonical interactions between different editions?
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2021-06-22, 01:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Information request: Forgotten Realms edition timeline, more
Tomb of Annihilation implies Faerunian interaction with Oerth, since that is where Acererak is from. Also many of the spells that are canon to D&D have Oerth wizards in their names, implying that there may be cross-setting exchange between magic users. (I like the idea that there's some kind of freemason-esque society between wizards from all different worlds).
Also I'm pretty sure I remember a room in the Tomb of Nine Gods with some frozen warriors captured by Acererak that the adventure says could be from a another world entirely, suggesting several other D&D settings as well as medieval Earth.Last edited by Trask; 2021-06-22 at 01:40 PM.
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2021-06-22, 06:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Information request: Forgotten Realms edition timeline, more
1e is set in 1358. This is also the year of the Time of Troubles. The Tuigan Invasion happens in 1360. 2e is set in 1368. 3e s set in 1372, but there aren't any terribly apocalyptic events heralding it in the Realms. The Spellplague breaks out in 1385 and 4e is set in 1479. 5e is set in 1489. There are lots of major events happening in the middle there (especially between 3e and 4e), but those are at least the starting years by edition (note that I think most editions advanced the year throughout).
What canonical interactions are there between official D&D settings? Between those settings and Earth? Between those settings and other systems?
Forgotten Realms is connected to Earth because what we know of the Realms ostensibly comes from Elminster coming to Earth and Ed Greenwood bribing him with ice cream. Also, a lot of Forgotten Realms stuff is specifically from real Earth - for example, Mulhorand, Mielikki, and Loviatar are all supposed to be from Earth (or Earth religions). I'm sure there are others, but those most rapidly came to mind. I think there are BECMI adventures where Immortal characters actually come to Earth (or something very similar). And I want to say there was a god in Greyhawk who was originally a person from Earth.
Which settings do various modules belong in by default?
Which settings canonically exist in multiple editions? Any timelines on those other settings' edition changes?
And, lastly, the thing I *don't* expect to find, is there any canonical interactions between different editions?
There are modules and books that have guidance for use with either 1st or 2nd edition AD&D, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were also some that have rules for both B/X or BECMI and AD&D, but I'm not sure.A System-Independent Creative Community:
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2021-06-22, 07:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Information request: Forgotten Realms edition timeline, more
I think the people of Tilverton would disagree with that.
Forgotten Realms is connected to Earth because what we know of the Realms ostensibly comes from Elminster coming to Earth and Ed Greenwood bribing him with ice cream. Also, a lot of Forgotten Realms stuff is specifically from real Earth - for example, Mulhorand, Mielikki, and Loviatar are all supposed to be from Earth (or Earth religions). I'm sure there are others, but those most rapidly came to mind. I think there are BECMI adventures where Immortal characters actually come to Earth (or something very similar). And I want to say there was a god in Greyhawk who was originally a person from Earth.
I think every official, TSR or Wizards-published setting has existed in at least two editions. None of them have existed in every edition, though Forgotten Realms probably comes closest (and maybe Greyhawk). I'm not sure that any setting other than Forgotten Realms has had specific events happen between editions; maybe the events around Vecna Lives! could be associated with the 2e->3e transition for Greyhawk/Planescape/Ravenloft? And Greyhawk and Dark Sun both got substantial timeline advance during 2e, but I don't think either coincided with an edition change.
There are modules and books that have guidance for use with either 1st or 2nd edition AD&D, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were also some that have rules for both B/X or BECMI and AD&D, but I'm not sure.The Cranky Gamer
*It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
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2021-06-22, 08:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Information request: Forgotten Realms edition timeline, more
Yes, there was absolutely big stuff that happened between 2e and 3e (the return of the Shadovar, the end of the Retreat, the massive incursion of drow into Cormanthor, etc), but I guess what I meant was that there was no big, singular "Realms-Shaking Event" the way there was with every other edition change.
Greyhawk has existed in all editions, I believe... maybe not 4th? Forgotten Realms missed the BECMI/RC line. Birthright has, to date, only had a single edition (2nd), same with Spelljammer and Planescape, though elements of the last two settings were folded into the core cosmology. Technically, Rokugan only had a single edition, but it was an import. Some smaller settings (e.g. Council of Wyrms) also only had a single edition.
You're right about Birthright and some small settings, like Council of Wyrms or Jakandar. I didn't think of those. I guess I was thinking of Spelljammer and Planescape as having slid far enough into the default as to count in post-2e editions (certainly I think Sigil has had write-ups since then).
To a large extent, there wasn't a lot of that needed... the games were all pretty compatible. I can take a BECMI module and throw it down before 2e PCs and run it without any modification. Backporting... using a 2e module in BECMI, for example, is a bit more complicated, as the 2e module will have things the earlier system did not account for.A System-Independent Creative Community:
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2021-06-25, 07:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Information request: Forgotten Realms edition timeline, more
I'm not happy with this answer. Here is, off the top of my head, a more detailed discussion on settings by edition (in roughly order of first appearance, not necessarily in D&D, but only roughly). I'm not going to count anything from Dragon or Dungeon, because I'm not too familiar with them, or DMs Guild.
The Hyborian Age
TSR published a few modules about Conan and Red Sonja during 1e or 2e (not sure which). The original Conan stories date back to the... '30's, I think, so this is probably the oldest setting on the list. I suspect these modules did not incorporate more generic D&D stuff and may have had their own special rules. TSR also published their own Conan RPG at some point (now retro-cloned as ZEFRS, I think), and there is a modern Conan RPG called An Age Undreamed Of.
Middle Earth
Original D&D included some Middle Earth monsters in it - hobbits, balrogs, and Nazgul, I believe (and I guess orcs). I believe that there is also a 5e Middle Earth called Adventures in Middle Earth (not sure if that's officially licensed by Wizards, but my impression was that it was). There have of course been other Middle Earth RPGs, most notably MERP and The One Ring. Again, I doubt any of this was ever tied to anything else D&D, except inasmuch as balrogs became balors and so forth.
Lankhmar / Nehwon
This is Fritz Leiber's setting for his Fafhrd and Grey Mouser stories. TSR published some Lankhmar material in 2e, and I want to say maybe they got permission to include some Lankhmar stuff in 1e Deities and Demigods? There has, since then, also been a Savage Worlds take on Lankhmar. My recollection of the 2e stuff is that they did not have connections to other D&D material, but maybe any 1e stuff did? Also, in one of the original stories, Fafhrd and the Mouser are sent to Earth, so, given that there are connections between other D&D worlds and Earth, it would not be hard to have connections to Nehwon as well.
Forgotten Realms
Ed Greenwood has said that he originally came up with the Realms as a kid, so I think that puts this next. They were initially published in 1e, and have also appeared in 2e, 3e, 4e, and 5e. So far as I am aware, the Realms have never appeared in any other ruleset (well, there was a card game - Spellfire? - and... maybe a hex and chit war game? I'm not going to count those - in any case, I think Spellfire also included Greyhawk and Dragonlance).
Blackmoor
Blackmoor was Dave Arneson's setting. I don't know much about it, but I believe it was later subsumed into both Greyhawk and the Known World. I know there was a book called Blackmoor in OD&D, but I don't know how much setting it included.
Greyhawk
Greyhawk was the name of Gygax's campaign setting, though my understanding is that the published Greyhawk has little in common with what he used. There was a book called Greyhawk in OD&D, but again, not sure if it had any setting information, unless you count beings like Bahamut and Tiamat. I know Greyhawk was published in 1e and 2e. Living Greyhawk was used in 3e, and I think the default 3e setting was kinda-sorta Greyhawk. 4e and 5e have both used Greyhawk stuff, like Mordenkainen, the Tomb of Horrors, Vecna, and so forth, but my impression is that they've been used more as generic D&D stuff rather than as being representative of Greyhawk. Greyhawk has definitely crossed over with many other D&D settings, but again, I don't think it's appeared in any other rulesets.
Wilderlands of High Fantasy
I think these were published with the D&D mark during OD&D. I don't believe they connected to any other D&D stuff (not that there would have been much to connect to). Not sure when these stopped publication, but I think they continued after losing the D&D mark (using relatively generic stats). I know there was also some third-party publication during the 3e era under the d20 system.
Tekumel
I don't think Tekumel was ever officially D&D, but TSR published it, and at the time they were probably still thinking of the D&D rules as changing a lot with different fantasy worlds. So maybe they considered it as related. Definitely not connected to other D&D cosmology (except inasmuch as I think it's set far in Earth's future), and has had its own systems.
Dragonlance
Published in 1e and 2e, and I think there was some officially licensed but third party support in 3e. Not aware of any 4e Dragonlance stuff, but I think kender are in 5e? And maybe Krynnish minotaurs? Dragonlance is again definitely connected to Spelljammer and (I assume) Planescape, apart from some smaller but more direct connections to other settings. Dragonlance has had some board games and such, but other than that, I think it's been exclusive to D&D.
Kara-Tur
I think this appeared in the original Oriental Adventures. So that's 1e. Not sure if it's gotten further publication on its own since then, but I know it at least played a major role in Spelljammer in 2e, and is baked in to the Forgotten Realms at this point. But I don't think either setting originally intended that.
The Known World / Mystara
This was the core setting for B/X, and later for BECMI, and is the home of a lot of relatively well-known modules (or shares them with Greyhawk). The Known World was renamed Mystara and published to at least some degree in 2e (also see Red Steel). This setting I think connects to Earth, but it's cosmology is so different from every other major D&D world that I don't know you could easily connect it to any of them.
Ravenloft
At this point, I think we're in 2e, where there were a lot of settings, so I'm probably out of order.
Ravenloft was published for 1e, but I'm not sure it actually appeared as a full setting until 2e came out. I think there was fan support through 3e but nothing official. 4e I think had Ravenloft as part of the Shadowfell, and 5e I believe has published a Ravenloft book. So Ravenloft is actually doing pretty well. I don't think it made it to any other systems.
Dark Sun
Dark Sun debuted in 2e, and also has appeared in 4e. Another D&D exclusive, though perhaps noteworthy in that I think it was originally intended for high use of Battlesystem, the D&D mass combat rules. Perhaps also noteworthy in that it specifically exists in the D&D multiverse, but is generally inaccessible.
Spelljammer
Another 2e debut, I don't think Spelljammer has appeared since, though I think there were some similar ideas used in 4e's Astral Sea. Spelljammer is probably one of those things that will live on more as an idea than as a setting.
Planescape
Appeared in 2e. The Great Wheel itself is older than that and, I think, traces back in some ways to OD&D. I don't think Planescape has really appeared since, but Sigil certainly has, and I think this is one where you could kind of say it got baked into the core D&D stuff.
Al-Qadim
Technically, this is tied to the Forgotten Realms, but really, Al-Qadim has, I believe, only really appeared in 2e. I think a few bits of lore and classes have drifted forwards.
Maztica, The Horde
I think both of these were basically written as their own thing before being bolted on to the Forgotten Realms, much like Kara-Tur and Al-Qadim (though I don't think they were published standalone). 2e exclusives, I think, except as attached to FR. I think Maztica was specifically called out in 4e as having disappeared and been replaced with Returned Abeir.
Jakandar
Published in four books in 2e. I don't think it's appeared since.
Council of Wyrms
Honestly, I know nothing about this except that I think you play dragons. I think it's 2e and has never appeared since.
Birthright
Big 2e setting with a lot of books. I don't think it has appeared in any other editions, though you could maybe point to the Bloodline rules in 3e as being very loosely inspired by it (but probably not). Hasn't appeared in any other systems, but it does have its own kingdom management and war systems that I think people have played standalone. I'm not aware of any connections to other settings.
Kalamar
Kalamar was, I believe, published as a third party setting during 2e. I think during 3e they got the right to write D&D on their products for a little while. I think it may have continued into 4e (and maybe 5e?), but not under the D&D name. I don't think there's any connection to other D&D settings. I have no idea if it has been written with any rules systems other than D&D.
Historical Reference
I mention these only for completeness. During 2e, there were a handful of books published detailing playing D&D in historical settings - Vikings, Franks, Romans, Celts, Renaissance Europe, Crusades, and.... I think there were seven, but I don't remember what the last one was. I don't think anything like these has been published since, and I'm pretty sure they were not connected to any other D&D settings (except inasmuch as they're set on Earth).
Thunder Vale
Not even sure I have the right name for this one, but I think there was a handful of adventures published very late in 2e that all used the same mini-setting. Possible there was an early 3e adventure that also used it, but I doubt it. While I think this was pretty much left to die, I believe Known World / Mystara fans have adopted it into that setting. While I say this was only 2e, I actually learned to play D&D with a boxed set called Dragon Quest that was a super-simplified version of the game (spells but no spell levels, for example) and that was set in this setting. So I guess technically, it had at least two "editions."
Rokugan
Not sure when Rokugan first came out (during the nineties, I imagine); while it has traditionally used its own systems, I think 3e's Oriental Adventures book included it as the example. Legend of the Five Rings still exists, with its own system. I don't know how closely it was connected to other D&D settings - I would guess not much.
Eberron
First published in 3e, with further publications in 4e and 5e. I'm far from an Eberron expert, but my impression is that Eberron is sorta kinda connected to other D&D worlds, but not really. Presumably not used with any other systems.
Nentir Vale / PoLand
Nentir Vale was created as the default setting for 4e. I think PoLand is one fan-used name to refer to the entire world (standing for Points of Light Land). I'm not sure it was ever directly connected to other settings (except maybe Ravenloft), but it shared a cosmology with the Realms in 4e, and it abducted a lot of well-known characters and modules from Greyhawk and (I think) the Known World. Only appeared in 4e, though elements linger on in 5e, and there was at least one board game set there.
I think that's a fairly comprehensive list of which settings have appeared in which editions. I have no doubt that it includes mistakes or that I have missed some settings, so please feel free to tear it apart.A System-Independent Creative Community:
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2021-06-25, 10:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Information request: Forgotten Realms edition timeline, more
In a lot of ways, halflings have been Kender-ish since 3rd edition.
Ravenloft
At this point, I think we're in 2e, where there were a lot of settings, so I'm probably out of order.
Ravenloft was published for 1e, but I'm not sure it actually appeared as a full setting until 2e came out. I think there was fan support through 3e but nothing official. 4e I think had Ravenloft as part of the Shadowfell, and 5e I believe has published a Ravenloft book. So Ravenloft is actually doing pretty well. I don't think it made it to any other systems.
Spelljammer
Another 2e debut, I don't think Spelljammer has appeared since, though I think there were some similar ideas used in 4e's Astral Sea. Spelljammer is probably one of those things that will live on more as an idea than as a setting.
Planescape
Appeared in 2e. The Great Wheel itself is older than that and, I think, traces back in some ways to OD&D. I don't think Planescape has really appeared since, but Sigil certainly has, and I think this is one where you could kind of say it got baked into the core D&D stuff.
Birthright
Big 2e setting with a lot of books. I don't think it has appeared in any other editions, though you could maybe point to the Bloodline rules in 3e as being very loosely inspired by it (but probably not). Hasn't appeared in any other systems, but it does have its own kingdom management and war systems that I think people have played standalone. I'm not aware of any connections to other settings.
Kalamar
Kalamar was, I believe, published as a third party setting during 2e. I think during 3e they got the right to write D&D on their products for a little while. I think it may have continued into 4e (and maybe 5e?), but not under the D&D name. I don't think there's any connection to other D&D settings. I have no idea if it has been written with any rules systems other than D&D.
Historical Reference
I mention these only for completeness. During 2e, there were a handful of books published detailing playing D&D in historical settings - Vikings, Franks, Romans, Celts, Renaissance Europe, Crusades, and.... I think there were seven, but I don't remember what the last one was. I don't think anything like these has been published since, and I'm pretty sure they were not connected to any other D&D settings (except inasmuch as they're set on Earth).The Cranky Gamer
*It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
*Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
*Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
*The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
There are almost 400,000 threads on this site. If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.
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2021-06-25, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Information request: Forgotten Realms edition timeline, more
Iirc, there were 3.5 setting details for Dark Sun and Spelljammer in Dragon. I seem to recall much shrieking over paladins being allowed in 3.5 Dark Sun. The Spelljammer articles were a little different, everything was in one system with no other spheres to visit.
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2021-06-26, 02:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Information request: Forgotten Realms edition timeline, more
For what it's worth CB1 and CB2 were 1st Ed AD&D modules.
Again 1st Ed AD&D for most of it, some may have also been published in 2nd Ed.
There's a good argument for splitting this section in two:
Known World/Mystara pre Hollow World and Mystara post Hollow World.
Pre-HW the setting was supposed to be earth - our earth - shortly after the last supercontinent breakup (i.e. millions of years ago). The Cosmology was completely different to AD&D not just in the outer planes (no great wheel) but also in things like how the elements (and their planes) interact (air dominates water dominates fire dominates earth dominates air).
Post Hollow World the outer planes got simplified (in Wrath of the Immortals) and with the move to 2nd Ed a lot of people felt encouraged to include it in Spelljammer and the list of regular (A)D&D worlds with conventional great wheel cosmology (and this is how it is treated in the Afrokuma knowledge thread).
Seperate(ish) to this is:
Red Steel
Originated in Bruce Heard's Mystara D&D column in Dragon, got majorly revised when released as a 2nd Ed boxed set (no longer really tying to Mystara as presented in the rest of 2nd Ed).
Very much a "wild west with mutations" setting (yes, it had gunpowder in the boxed set - miniature crossows in the original).
I thought the Horde was explicitly introduced as the region between "usual" Forgotten Realms campaign maps and Kara Tur?
It was actually the setting used for the rebooted Basic D&D (big black box edition with lots of card tiles and figures) at the same time as Mystara was being ported into 2nd Ed, hence the import into Mystara.
Tear it apart? No chance, it's a lovely essay, I just hope we can enhance it.
And 3rd Ed's Ravenloft book returned to that original.
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2021-06-27, 11:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Information request: Forgotten Realms edition timeline, more
Rokugan came over from Legend of the Five Rings (the RPG, not the CCG). Oriental Adventures (the 3.0 book) was a cooperative work between WOTC and Alderac Entertainment Group (AEG, who wrote L5R - the licence was sold to Fantasy Flight Games in 2015). The 3.0 version of Oriental Adventures used Rokugan as the book's campaign setting, and AEG's splatbooks for L5R had dual stats: one set for those playing the L5R RPG and one set for those playing 3.0. Of these, only Oriental Adventures that was officially a WOTC book - all of the others during that time period were third party works by AEG.
Oriental Adventures got what was termed an official (but not comprehensive) update to 3.5 in Dragon #318, but otherwise the setting hasn't been touched on again by WOTC as far as I know.