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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Spell Storing Arrow Spells

    I have a quiver of spell storing arrows, and I would like to ask what spells are best placed in spell storing arrows.

    I am looking for spells that still have partial effects even on a failed save(considering the spell's DC peaks at 15) or spells that have no saves.

    I am currently getting a few Bands of Steel(SC) arrows and a few Shivering Touch(Frosburn) arrows. I am also considering Thunderhead and Combust, but these are just damage spells and I am looking for more of some method of control. Blindness/Deafness? Ghoultouch? The save Dc is a bit easy to make these spells worthwhile. What else should I be spending my hard earned gold on?

    (I am currently level 7 Ranger.)
    Last edited by cupkeyk; 2007-11-13 at 11:40 AM.
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Spell Storing Arrow Spells

    Spell Storing on ammo is a somewhat non-standard usage.

    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm only lists it as an option for melee weapons.

    It seems a bit too powerful to allow it on ammo - you could have a quiver full of all sorts of types cast ahead of time, with just the right one for any case. (And it's a stored spell, so it's at the caster level & DC from the original caster!)

    At 2000 8350 gp to create, it's cheaper than 50 2nd 3rd level scrolls, but could be used by anybody. I might allow it for the ammo launcher, but not for individual bolts or arrows.

    But for what spells? Have your friendly mage put in unused spells at the end of the day at their level & DC, not ranger spells. Shocking grasp would stick 5d6 extra damage, no save on.

    [edit - stupid bad math! 8000+ gp. at ~ 170 gp, per, it's still pretty good for a scroll replacement for a 3rd level spell from a party member.]
    Last edited by MobiusKlein; 2007-11-13 at 02:17 PM. Reason: Cost correction

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Spell Storing Arrow Spells

    Uhh, no. Spells storing ammo is at least 8350gp each (because it totals to a +2 weapon(+1 spell storing, +1 enhancement). And nothing in the description limits it to melee.

    None of the spells I mentioned are ranger spells btw.
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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Zombie

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    Default Re: Spell Storing Arrow Spells

    And not forgetting all the inflict x spells, always good for damage.

    And in our DM's eyes there is nothing wrong with spell storing arrows as when you use them all up you ahve to buy more and have some one willing and then time to cast 50 spells into all the ammo.

    And it should cost 8000gp as all weapons need to be atleast +1 or better before you can add things like that to them. So 8000gp for 50 or 160gp each for a one use item.

    Edit - you beat me to it - ninja!
    Last edited by Jimbob; 2007-11-13 at 12:17 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #5
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    Goblin

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    Default Re: Spell Storing Arrow Spells

    I'm sure there will be 10 other posts while I type this but here is a summary of things said on this before:

    "Spell Storing: A spell storing weapon allows a spellcaster to store a single targeted spell of up to 3rd level in the weapon. (The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action.) Any time the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires. (This special ability is an exception to the general rule that casting a spell from an item takes at least as long as casting that spell normally.) Once the spell has been cast from the weapon, a spellcaster can cast any other targeted spell of up to 3rd level into it. The weapon magically imparts to the wielder the name of the spell currently stored within it. A randomly rolled spell storing weapon has a 50% chance to have a spell stored in it already. "


    Spell Storing is listed only with melee weapons not with ranged weapons, but there is nothing in the description saying it can't be used on ranged weapons and ammo.

    However. The description states that when you hit a creature you can choose to cast the spell on said creature.

    Since you are not activly touching the arrow when it hits, you don't really have control of it, so do you have the choice to activate the weapon. as for enchanting the launcher (bow or xbow), the desciption states nothing about transferring the ability to the arrow.

    Also there may be violent discussion about the definition of the word "wield"

    IMHO, it is meant for melee weapons only and I rule as such in my games.

    If you have a DM that allows it... Hold Person can be effective. Knock would be useful in some situations, but technically a door is not a creature and the RAW toss that out.
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    Default Re: Spell Storing Arrow Spells

    Ray of Exhaustion is a nice spell for Spell Storing (I'm pretty sure you can use rays). It has a partial effect (fatigued) on a successful save. 2 arrows (multishot) into any target would effectively slow them, no save, in the suprise round. If the 3rd arrow in the multi is Shivering Touch, you've pretty much downed everything that doesn't have a 20ish dex.

    Touch of Idiocy is a nice one for Spell Storing. 1d6 from all mental stats. Ray of Stupidity is pretty rediculous too.

    You already mentioned Bands of Steel, and its will save cousin Hold Person would cover most of your save bases.

    If you have the spell storing that goes higher than 3rd level, Eneveration, Feeblemind, Hold Monster, and Avasculate are all good choices.

    Hope this helps!
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  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Spell Storing Arrow Spells

    Rays have "Effect: Ray" instead of a "Target: One Creature" or "Target: Creature Touched." Spell storing equipment can only be used with Targeted Spells that target a creature. See excerpt above.

    As for the syntax issue o whether or not an arrow(or any ammo or thrown weapons) is "wielded" at the point of impact to allow spell storing is, well, my DM's judgment.
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    Goblin

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    Default Re: Spell Storing Arrow Spells

    Quote Originally Posted by lussmanj View Post
    Touch of Idiocy is a nice one for Spell Storing. 1d6 from all mental stats. Ray of Stupidity is pretty rediculous too.
    If you really want to nerf a spellcaster, ready to shoot once they start casting and use an Arrow of Idiocy. Sure you can shoot them just as easy on your turn, but it would be more satisfying this way.

    Not only do you drop the spell, you can't even rememeber what else you can cast.

    As for your DM, good for you guys. THe best part of this game is that we can all play it how we want.

    Other interesting spells:

    Cure moderate wounds.
    Sanctuary
    Reduce Person
    Confusion (have a abrd cast it for you)

    If you use healing spells or things like sanctuary, use a hand crossbow, minimal damage, but lets you provide distance healing.
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Spell Storing Arrow Spells

    Putting the Spell Storing in the ammo is much more powerful than on a single weapon. To be symmetrical in power, the entire set of ammo would have to have only one spell instance in them all. Once one that spell was used, a spellcaster would have to cast a new spell in again. Letting each of the 50 bolts/arrows have it's own spell effectively removes that limit.

    It also allows each projectile to have a different spell, so you never have to worry about not having the right spell stored.

    But if your DM allows it, have a blast! Just don't complain when you get hit with a Vampiric Touch arrow for 1d6 + 5d6 +...

  10. - Top - End - #10
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    Default Re: Spell Storing Arrow Spells

    Quote Originally Posted by MobiusKlein View Post
    It also allows each projectile to have a different spell, so you never have to worry about not having the right spell stored.
    No, but you do have to worry about finding the one you want.

    If there are 50 arrows in your quiver, each with a different spell, how do you find the one you want? Did you label them? If so, are you going to stop in combat and flip through your quiver trying to find the right arrow?

    As a DM, I might rule that finding a specific arrow from your quiver takes longer than merely grabbing any arrow, limiting you to one shot a round or possibly less. That would balance ammo pretty easily; sure you have a stored spell for every occasion, but you're going to need a couple rounds' preparation time before you can use it.

    (I know this isn't RAW, but it seems an entirely sensible houserule.)
    Last edited by technophile; 2007-11-13 at 03:56 PM.
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  11. - Top - End - #11
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    Default Re: Spell Storing Arrow Spells

    Am I the only one who keeps thinking of the Green Arrow?
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Spell Storing Arrow Spells

    Quote Originally Posted by technophile View Post
    No, but you do have to worry about finding the one you want.

    If there are 50 arrows in your quiver, each with a different spell, how do you find the one you want? Did you label them? If so, are you going to stop in combat and flip through your quiver trying to find the right arrow?

    As a DM, I might rule that finding a specific arrow from your quiver takes longer than merely grabbing any arrow, limiting you to one shot a round or possibly less. That would balance ammo pretty easily; sure you have a stored spell for every occasion, but you're going to need a couple rounds' preparation time before you can use it.

    (I know this isn't RAW, but it seems an entirely sensible houserule.)
    Actually, my dm ruled the same thing but...

    Quiver of Ehlonna: This appears to be a typical arrow container capable of holding about twenty arrows. It has three distinct portions, each with a nondimensional space allowing it to store far more than would normally be possible. The first and smallest one can contain up to sixty objects of the same general size and shape as an arrow. The second slightly longer compartment holds up to eighteen objects of the same general size and shape as a javelin. The third and longest portion of the case contains as many as six objects of the same general size and shape as a bow (spears, staffs, or the like). Once the owner has filled it, the quiver can produce any item she wishes, as if from a regular quiver or scabbard. The quiver weighs the same no matter what’s placed inside it.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Re: Spell Storing Arrow Spells

    As for the quiver of Elhonna.... Intersting.

    But would it help? Can you ask for something so specific as the arrow of spell storing with haste put on it? How will the Quiver know?

    Heck, is there a physical difference between the arrows that the player can identify them with? Even with 3 fletchings, 1 of 1 color and the other 2 of another, you would have to use 8 different colors of feathers to uniquly identify the arrows if you have 50 different versions.

    It boils down to whether or not the quiver can tell the difference based on the spell in the arrow or if it is physical appearance. If physical the PC would have to know the color code and hope to remember it in the middle of combat. If there are less versions then it simplifies things.

    IMHO, I would assume the Quiver can only use physical differences to tell them apart.
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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Re: Spell Storing Arrow Spells

    Quote Originally Posted by MobiusKlein View Post
    Putting the Spell Storing in the ammo is much more powerful than on a single weapon. To be symmetrical in power, the entire set of ammo would have to have only one spell instance in them all. Once one that spell was used, a spellcaster would have to cast a new spell in again. Letting each of the 50 bolts/arrows have it's own spell effectively removes that limit.
    Actually the fact that the arrow is destroyed after use is a pretty good limiter too.
    Last edited by Techonce; 2007-11-13 at 04:53 PM.
    All hail the Dark One!

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Spell Storing Arrow Spells

    nothing is stopping me from writing the spell's name on the shaft with a fine quill and ink.

    Quiver! Arrows of Bands of Steel!

    Now it just sounds like fun!
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    Goblin

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    Default Re: Spell Storing Arrow Spells

    Quote Originally Posted by cupkeyk View Post
    nothing is stopping me from writing the spell's name on the shaft with a fine quill and ink.

    Quiver! Arrows of Bands of Steel!

    Now it just sounds like fun!
    I'm imagining an Inspector Gadget like tragedy when the Arrow of Steel Drum Band comes out.
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    Default Re: Spell Storing Arrow Spells

    Quote Originally Posted by cupkeyk View Post
    Actually, my dm ruled the same thing but...
    Once the owner has filled it, the quiver can produce any item she wishes, as if from a regular quiver or scabbard.
    I interpret the highlighted portion as meaning you could retrieve arrows from the quiver just like you would from a regular quiver rather than like a weird extradimensional space strapped to your back. It lets you store more ammunition and produces it when you wish, but you still get them as if from a regular quiver.

    I definitely wouldn't allow the loophole you're implying, it's not only imbalanced but the description for the magic items involved doesn't support your case.

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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Spell Storing Arrow Spells

    Quote Originally Posted by Techonce View Post
    I'm imagining an Inspector Gadget like tragedy when the Arrow of Steel Drum Band comes out.
    Which wouldn't be inappropraite to my build since my gnome ranger looks and talks like Gilbert Gottfried with his 5 Cha.
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Spell Storing Arrow Spells

    Quote Originally Posted by tainsouvra View Post
    I interpret the highlighted portion as meaning you could retrieve arrows from the quiver just like you would from a regular quiver rather than like a weird extradimensional space strapped to your back. ...

    I definitely wouldn't allow the loophole you're implying, it's not only imbalanced but the description for the magic items involved doesn't support your case.
    The spell storing arrows are already imbalanced. Stored spells are superior to scrolls (I think?) because they cast at the DC & CL of the caster, not the minimum to use the spell. They don't require a day to fill with a spell, and can be used by an class, not just casters.

    According to the description, you don't even have to label them - "The weapon magically imparts to the wielder the name of the spell currently stored within it."

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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Spell Storing Arrow Spells

    these are fun. What level is vampiric touch?

    i'd go with a spell storing bow, you could use it more than 50 times, and you only pay once.
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    Default Re: Spell Storing Arrow Spells

    Quote Originally Posted by Techonce View Post
    How will the Quiver know?
    Magic.


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    Default Re: Spell Storing Arrow Spells

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomNPC View Post
    these are fun. What level is vampiric touch?
    3rd level.

    i'd go with a spell storing bow, you could use it more than 50 times, and you only pay once.
    The DM is already bending the RAW as it is, unless you suggest using the bow as a club.

    House ruling that it can be used on a bow would limit the use to the first arrow. Applying it to 50 arrows, given sufficient downtime, will be much more efficient.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Spell Storing Arrow Spells

    Isn't there a clarification on this yet? At least to the definition of wield? I was all over sage advice and well it came up zip.
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Spell Storing Arrow Spells

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Silvanos View Post

    The DM is already bending the RAW as it is, unless you suggest using the bow as a club.

    House ruling that it can be used on a bow would limit the use to the first arrow. Applying it to 50 arrows, given sufficient downtime, will be much more efficient.
    The primary limitation on spell storing melee items is that they are effectively one use per encounter. The round spent filling the weapon with the spell could be used to cast the spell directly, so why bother putting into the weapon. Ammo, not so limited. A nice first volley when your armies clash.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Spell Storing Arrow Spells

    But this is countered by the obvious increase in price as you cannot reuse spell storing arrows.
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Spell Storing Arrow Spells

    Ah, here is how we can make a balanced, usable magic item:
    It's the quiver that holds the spell storing, not each arrow.

    When you pull an arrow out, that arrow (if you choose) holds the stored spell.

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    Default Re: Spell Storing Arrow Spells

    I have found a fun trick for spell storing arrows (or bolts). Get fifty Fine-sized +1 arrows, enchanted with Spell Storing. Why Fine-sized, you ask? Well, because these arrows are not for attacking your enemies. Fill each and every arrow with a buff or a heal. Simply stab yourself with it whenever you need it, and cast the spell on yourself. Spells like Cure Serious Wounds, Bull's Strength, Blur, Fly, and Invisibility make for some good ones. Sure, you take 1d2 damage every time, but your buff time will be reduced from a few minutes to a few rounds, now that anyone can cast them.

    You could even have several cases full, each case with different types of buff in it. Some good ones would be a healing loadout (the various Cure spells, Neutralize Poison, Remove Disease, etc.), buffing loadout (Cat's Grace, Invisibilty, Blur) and general utility (Fly, Gaseous Form, Darkvision).

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    Default Re: Spell Storing Arrow Spells

    Keeping the different types straight wouldn't be a problem, even without additional magic. Keep them in three quivers on your back (you'd need that many to hold 50 arrows, anyway): Two of the quivers carry the two types that you use most often, and the third one carries all of the special-case ones. Want an Iron Bands? Use the arrows from the left quiver. Want a Blindness? Use the arrows from the middle quiver. Think you're about to face a winter wolf? Dig through the right quiver until you find the Combust arrow, and keep it ready. Really, it's not much different from the wizard preparing a customized set of spells each day, except it's on a shorter timescale.

    And don't use Shivering Touch arrows (or Shivering Touch at all), unless your group has already houseruled some restrictions onto it (like, it's an ability penalty, not ability damage, and can't reduce Dex below 1). One-shotting Great Wyrm dragons with a 3rd level spell with no save doesn't make the game fun for anyone.
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    Default Re: Spell Storing Arrow Spells

    There was a rather long debate on spell storing arrows a few months ago, mostly revolving around the definition of the word 'wield'. It became a moot point when someone brought up the fact that the Magic Item Compendium has a clarification on the issue, to the effect of spell storing arrows not being RAW legal.

    That being said, I think ghoul touch would be a good spell, because it creates an emanation from the target. Great for breaking up groups of enemies.
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    Default Re: Spell Storing Arrow Spells

    Quote Originally Posted by cupkeyk View Post
    Isn't there a clarification on this yet? At least to the definition of wield? I was all over sage advice and well it came up zip.
    The MIC clarified it, as Skjaldbakke says, and here is the thread about the definition of wield that also should show that you are not wielding flying arrows.
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