A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Let's have some fun; what are some ways V could beat Xykon in 1 round

    I notice V is probably at level 17 now, even if it hasn't been officially confirmed, and I thought it'd be fun for people to throw out some ways that Xykon could get taken down by a level 17 V in a single round.

    No need to limit V to the spells we've seen them do; anything they could reasonably have at their current level is fine; and yes, we all know it's not going to happen in the comic, but that doesn't mean this can't be fun. Let's stick with V not having access to Conjuration or Necromancy though, since obviously we can all come up with ways for V to win with spells like Gate.

    Assume V gets the first move.

    I'll throw out some of my favourite ideas first.

    1. V has secretly taken some levels in Archmage already and casts imprisonment using arcane reach. Xykon fails his save and that's it. The good guys win.
    2. V has secretly taken some levels in Archmage and uses mastery of elements to cast Sonic Meteor Swarm & a quickened spell like quickened Cone of Sonic.
    3. V casts maximized disintegrate and quickened Acid Orb (or if he has taken Archmage quickened, empowered sonic ball/bolt).
    4. V casts Binding Chain of Fate, and let's the chain whittle his health down. V can then just let Durkon smash the helpless Xykon with his hammer until he's dust (assumes Redcloak is busy/taken care of). The chain's AMF nullifies the boots of freedom of movement, so Xykon is helpless if he fails his save. Alternatively once it wears off V can cast it again if Xykon is still alive after 18 rounds. If Xykon casts Superb Dispelling he almost plays into their hands, since V can just cast it again and Xykon takes solid backlash damage casting said spell. In fairness though while Xykon has not proven he can cast 2 Epic spells in 1 day, logical inference suggests he can, meaning V would need more than 2 castings (or for Xykon to have already blown one use), or another work around.

    I could keep going but I'll let other people have a go.
    Last edited by TooSoon; 2021-07-06 at 06:43 AM.

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    Default Re: Let's have some fun; what are some ways V could beat Xykon in 1 round

    The only one I can see being effective would be Maximised Disintegrate, as undead sorcerers have lower Fort&Ref saves. Hitting Xykon with a save-or-die (Will negates) would add up to a wasted turn.
    Isn't Acid Orb a Conjuration?
    And are the rules of this game 'V vs Xykon' or '17th level full Arcane caster with Conjuration and Necromancy as banned schools vs Xykon'? Because if we can assume retroactive secret prestige classes, this could get very messy very quickly.

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    Default Re: Let's have some fun; what are some ways V could beat Xykon in 1 round

    V: *Counterspell*
    Xykon: *Energy Drain* "Crap!"
    Roy: *Bull Rush*
    Belkar: *Stabbity-stab-stab*
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    Everyone Else: *Keeps RC busy for a round.*

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Let's have some fun; what are some ways V could beat Xykon in 1 round

    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    The only one I can see being effective would be Maximised Disintegrate, as undead sorcerers have lower Fort&Ref saves. Hitting Xykon with a save-or-die (Will negates) would add up to a wasted turn.
    Isn't Acid Orb a Conjuration?
    And are the rules of this game 'V vs Xykon' or '17th level full Arcane caster with Conjuration and Necromancy as banned schools vs Xykon'? Because if we can assume retroactive secret prestige classes, this could get very messy very quickly.
    Acid Orb is evocation.

    A save or die spell is only a waste if the guy saves. If he doesn't he dies, and the odds are better than might be imagined for some of these things to work and Xykon to be taken out.

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    Default Re: Let's have some fun; what are some ways V could beat Xykon in 1 round

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    Acid Orb is evocation.
    Are you talking about orb of acid in the Spell Compendium? Cuz that's definitely conjuration.
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    Default Re: Let's have some fun; what are some ways V could beat Xykon in 1 round

    Quote Originally Posted by TaiLiu View Post
    Are you talking about orb of acid in the Spell Compendium? Cuz that's definitely conjuration.
    I believe it changed from Evocation to Conjuration during the 3.0 to 3.5 transition.
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    Default Re: Let's have some fun; what are some ways V could beat Xykon in 1 round

    Strictly speaking, the spell wasn't changed - it was replaced by a new, very similarly-named spell.

    The 3.0 orbs are significantly less dangerous than the 3.5 ones, since they allow spell resistance and only do half damage on a succesful save - the 3.5 versions will always inflict full damage, with the save only serving to prevent the secondary effect. They do allow for more flexibility when targeting, since you can fire multiple orbs. The 3.0 version also has a (very weak) consolation prize if you miss on your attack roll (two points of damage per caster level, halved by a reflex save), but if you can't land a ranged touch attack then you have no business using orb spells in the first place.

    EDIT: targeting Xykon's will save, even with a 9th-level spell, seems like a bad choice. CLG thread puts V's intelligence at 24 and gives them no meaningful options to boost save DCs (especially for non-evocation spells) - so we'd be looking at a DC of 26 for a 9th-level spell. Xykon's got +12 to his will save from Sorcerer class levels alone, probably has a positive wisdom bonus (between age and lichdom he's packing +5 to his base wisdom), and realistically speaking would probably have some amount of epic save bonus. He's also almost certainly packing a save-boosting magic item (if only to shore up his fortitude and reflex saves - the will bonus here is really just icing on the cake) so it's not unreasonable for him to have a total will save bonus north of +20.
    Last edited by Gurgeh; 2021-07-06 at 09:53 PM.

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    Default Re: Let's have some fun; what are some ways V could beat Xykon in 1 round

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    Let's stick with V not having access to Conjuration or Necromancy though, since obviously we can all come up with ways for V to win with spells like Gate.
    What gate?
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    Default Re: Let's have some fun; what are some ways V could beat Xykon in 1 round

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurgeh View Post
    Strictly speaking, the spell wasn't changed - it was replaced by a new, very similarly-named spell.

    The 3.0 orbs are significantly less dangerous than the 3.5 ones, since they allow spell resistance and only do half damage on a succesful save - the 3.5 versions will always inflict full damage, with the save only serving to prevent the secondary effect. They do allow for more flexibility when targeting, since you can fire multiple orbs. The 3.0 version also has a (very weak) consolation prize if you miss on your attack roll (two points of damage per caster level, halved by a reflex save), but if you can't land a ranged touch attack then you have no business using orb spells in the first place.

    EDIT: targeting Xykon's will save, even with a 9th-level spell, seems like a bad choice. CLG thread puts V's intelligence at 24 and gives them no meaningful options to boost save DCs (especially for non-evocation spells) - so we'd be looking at a DC of 26 for a 9th-level spell. Xykon's got +12 to his will save from Sorcerer class levels alone, probably has a positive wisdom bonus (between age and lichdom he's packing +5 to his base wisdom), and realistically speaking would probably have some amount of epic save bonus. He's also almost certainly packing a save-boosting magic item (if only to shore up his fortitude and reflex saves - the will bonus here is really just icing on the cake) so it's not unreasonable for him to have a total will save bonus north of +20.
    It's not so much that V is choosing to force a will save in this scenario because it's so awesome, it's because finishing Xykon in 1 round is tough and requires gambling. None of these methods is a sure thing. That said, I think we have to give Xykon the abilities and stuff we actually know he has and no more, otherwise this isn't going to be fun. V could also obtain items to provide bonuses, etc.

    NB- I was using the 3.0 version. Oops. Let's just say he could have the house ruled in 3.0 version then, or the alternative spells I named.
    https://dndtools.org/spells/tome-and...cid-orb--3391/
    Last edited by TooSoon; 2021-07-07 at 02:29 AM.

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    Default Re: Let's have some fun; what are some ways V could beat Xykon in 1 round

    Soul Spli- Wait no, my bad, we already tried that one
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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Let's have some fun; what are some ways V could beat Xykon in 1 round

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaytara View Post
    Soul Spli- Wait no, my bad, we already tried that one
    Ways level 17 V could win under their own power and items, not with a splice (where they merely should have won, and got jobbed).

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    Default Re: Let's have some fun; what are some ways V could beat Xykon in 1 round

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    I believe it changed from Evocation to Conjuration during the 3.0 to 3.5 transition.
    Oh wow! Just really jamming all the good spells into conjuration during the transition, huh?
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    Default Re: Let's have some fun; what are some ways V could beat Xykon in 1 round

    If we're allowing prestige classes, then I'll just assume V took 10 levels of incantatrix.

    Round 1: Maximized Empowered Disintegrate (cast from 9th level spell slot using improved metamagic), Quickened Disintegrate (cast from a staff using metamagic spell trigger)
    Last edited by RatElemental; 2021-07-13 at 12:52 AM.

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    Default Re: Let's have some fun; what are some ways V could beat Xykon in 1 round

    Nah, that won't work; you can't directly attack other creatures during a Time Stop.

    Quote Originally Posted by 3.5 SRD
    This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat.
    Emphasis is mine; you could set up all sorts of other unkindnesses during this time, but you can't do any direct harm to anything until after the Time Stop has finished.

    EDIT: aha, I see you've realised that too. ;)

    Disintegrate still has the problem of relying on attack rolls, and therefore on V's poor BAB and presumed mediocre dexterity. V's yet to land a ranged touch attack on Xykon (from memory they're zero for two attempts). Might be better opting for Quickened True Strike followed by Maximised Disintegrate.
    Last edited by Gurgeh; 2021-07-13 at 12:56 AM.

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    Default Re: Let's have some fun; what are some ways V could beat Xykon in 1 round

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurgeh View Post
    EDIT: aha, I see you've realised that too. ;)
    Yeah my knowledge of high level stuff is a bit rusty, haven't had a group play past level 10 in years and none of them have even been in 3.5.

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    Default Re: Let's have some fun; what are some ways V could beat Xykon in 1 round

    Yeah, and it doesn't help that Time Stop does allow time-delayed direct-damage targeting in every videogame implementation of D&D I've ever seen (Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, etc.) - it's an easy thing to confuse.

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    biggrin Re: Let's have some fun; what are some ways V could beat Xykon in 1 round

    Maybe use Limited Wish (7th Levels universal spell) to replicate the effects of the spell Major Creation (5th level conjuration), which is possible since Limited Wish can “Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, even if it’s of a prohibited school.”

    V could create a big block of a really heavy material that V can think of (perhaps one that would also spite Redcloak like osmium) and drop it on Xykon.

    A round last 6 seconds so it should fall out of the sky in that at most to hit Xykon.

    Now, major creation can create about a cubic ft per level so let’s V makes a 15 cubic foot cube of osmium. That’s 424,753 cubic centimeters. And osmium’s density is 22.65 g/cm3 so that big cube will be 9,620,655 grams or about 9,620 kilograms. About 10.6 US tons in that cube of osmium.

    Now, using this handy site: https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/free-fall and me hoping I understand this right, that we can figure out the rest. Major creation’s range is 25 feet plus 5 feet per 2 Levels. Assuming say V is 16th level, this means 65 feet in max range.

    This means the 10 ton cube will slam into Xykon in about 2 seconds at 19.712 m/s or 44 miles per hour. So about 189,629 kg m/s in momentum.

    That should be enough to utterly crush Xykon. And V probably give a one liner noting on Xykon’s preference on overwhelming force.
    Last edited by CountDVB; 2021-07-13 at 02:51 AM.

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    Default Re: Let's have some fun; what are some ways V could beat Xykon in 1 round

    Quote Originally Posted by CountDVB View Post
    This means the 10 ton cube will slam into Xykon in about 2 seconds at 19.712 m/s or 44 miles per hour. So about 189,629 kg m/s in momentum.

    That should be enough to utterly crush Xykon. And V probably give a one liner noting on Xykon’s preference on overwhelming force.
    Didn't need to kill all those catgirls with the physics stuff, a cube weighing that much falling from that far would deal 112d6 damage, 6d6 for falling 60 feet and 106d6 because you get 1d6 per 200 pounds of the falling object. This would deal on average 392 damage, which means you've got pretty good odds of killing Xykon that way.

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    Default Re: Let's have some fun; what are some ways V could beat Xykon in 1 round

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Didn't need to kill all those catgirls with the physics stuff, a cube weighing that much falling from that far would deal 112d6 damage, 6d6 for falling 60 feet and 106d6 because you get 1d6 per 200 pounds of the falling object. This would deal on average 392 damage, which means you've got pretty good odds of killing Xykon that way.
    Actually I think that means Xykon has close to nil odds of survival. The odds of survival would be tiny I would think, given the usual calculations for his HP, even with DR and Epic Mage Armour in effect.

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    Default Re: Let's have some fun; what are some ways V could beat Xykon in 1 round

    Last edited by Anarchic Fox; 2021-07-13 at 05:21 AM.

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    Default Re: Let's have some fun; what are some ways V could beat Xykon in 1 round

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Didn't need to kill all those catgirls with the physics stuff, a cube weighing that much falling from that far would deal 112d6 damage, 6d6 for falling 60 feet and 106d6 because you get 1d6 per 200 pounds of the falling object. This would deal on average 392 damage, which means you've got pretty good odds of killing Xykon that way.
    Only 1d6 per 200 lbs? A little confused on where that math comes from there.

    But yeah, I imagine besides crushing Xykon, it would also probably shock Redcloak into listening.

    Though for some reason I don’t think that’d he’d listen until the Crimson mantle was displaced or at least off of him.

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    Default Re: Let's have some fun; what are some ways V could beat Xykon in 1 round

    Quote Originally Posted by CountDVB View Post
    Only 1d6 per 200 lbs? A little confused on where that math comes from there.
    From here.

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Falling Objects

    Just as characters take damage when they fall more than 10 feet, so too do they take damage when they are hit by falling objects.

    Objects that fall upon characters deal damage based on their weight and the distance they have fallen.

    For each 200 pounds of an object’s weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet. Distance also comes into play, adding an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 10-foot increment it falls beyond the first (to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage).

    Objects smaller than 200 pounds also deal damage when dropped, but they must fall farther to deal the same damage. Use Table: Damage from Falling Objects to see how far an object of a given weight must drop to deal 1d6 points of damage.

    For each additional increment an object falls, it deals an additional 1d6 points of damage.

    Objects weighing less than 1 pound do not deal damage to those they land upon, no matter how far they have fallen.

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    Default Re: Let's have some fun; what are some ways V could beat Xykon in 1 round

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    From here.
    ... One wonders what the heck were they thinking when they designed damage for this sort of stuff. either baseline humans are really fragile or something else is going on

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    Default Re: Let's have some fun; what are some ways V could beat Xykon in 1 round

    Has anyone suggested "Spell of Grenade Launcher" yet?
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    Default Re: Let's have some fun; what are some ways V could beat Xykon in 1 round

    Easy.

    I Wish Xykon was erased from existence.

    Of course V will have to use their incredible sesquipedalian loquaciousness to avoid any loopholes
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    Default Re: Let's have some fun; what are some ways V could beat Xykon in 1 round

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    Default Re: Let's have some fun; what are some ways V could beat Xykon in 1 round

    Can't Delayed Blast Fireball be used with Time Stop? In which case triple Delayed Blast Fireball could be an option, maybe one or two of them empowered as well. The Major Creation thing can also be done with Greater Shadow Conjuration if Limited Wish is considered too extravagant.
    Last edited by TRH; 2021-08-02 at 02:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Let's have some fun; what are some ways V could beat Xykon in 1 round

    Quote Originally Posted by TRH View Post
    Can't Delayed Blast Fireball be used with Time Stop? In which case triple Delayed Blast Fireball could be an option, maybe one or two of them empowered as well. The Major Creation thing can also be done with Greater Shadow Conjuration if Limited Wish is considered too extravagant.
    Xykon claims to be immune to fire, but the Greater Shadow Conjuration thing should still work.
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    Default Re: Let's have some fun; what are some ways V could beat Xykon in 1 round

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    Xykon claims to be immune to fire, but the Greater Shadow Conjuration thing should still work.
    It is an Illusion Spell, though they’d have to bang on Xykon botching a Will Save or exploiting his arrogance in a way to where he doesn’t try to make a Will save because he thinks he can rank the hit or is too fast for him too react.

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    Default Re: Let's have some fun; what are some ways V could beat Xykon in 1 round

    Quote Originally Posted by CountDVB View Post
    It is an Illusion Spell, though they’d have to bang on Xykon botching a Will Save or exploiting his arrogance in a way to where he doesn’t try to make a Will save because he thinks he can rank the hit or is too fast for him too react.
    There are some exceptionally cheesy builds that make it so if the target of a shadow conjuration makes their will save it's even more potent than if they had failed. I'm pretty sure V can't pull them off to that extent though, unless they got reincarnated as a whisper gnome.

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