A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Silly Name View Post
    What's so weird about a studious high-level cleric and Epic level sorcerer lich knowing what a soul splice is? Xykon shows a certain knowledge of ways to cheat death, so it's not absurd he learnt about fiendish bargains and stuff like soul splices.

    And yes, V fights like an idiot. That's the point of the whole scene: V was utterly convinced all it took to win was usage of high level spells and that Xykon would just crumble before sheer arcane might. V, in that moment, is obsessed with "fixing everything" and doesn't spend time to analyse and think clearly - teleporting into Xykon's lair unprepared and alone, thinking that since they have achieved power of the highest degree, nothing can stop them now.

    How is V "jobbed out" of the power that had been given? The fiends had been clear on the splice's duration being dependant on V's willpower, and when it wavered or got impaired, V lost the splices.
    The levels should have stacked; like it originally seemed they did. Then the contract and prophecy would be satisfactorily resolved without it feeling cheap to readers like me. V could have used elementary tactics too, like I don't know, casting their buffs before teleporting in. Gosh, it would have taken whole seconds to do. Plus, you know, used better spells too.

    As I said, the gradual fixes the author put in to address it made it much better than it looked like it would have been, it's much better than the Dorukan debacle.
    Last edited by TooSoon; 2021-06-30 at 07:05 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    It's not "ultimate and complete arcane power" if you have less arcane power than one of the splices individually. If you want to look for wordplays to try and rationalize the contract and prophecy you can find them; I'm just saying they are unsatisfying to me, because you could just as easily use wordplay to negate the whole prophecy/contract. That's cheap, and unenjoyable to me, and inconsistent with how the rest of the comic is being portrayed. It undermines the story to me, by begging the question of why even bother to treat any of the contract/prophecy as binding, just claim you are using a different interpretation of words, or another language where the words meant something different, or whatever.
    The terms of the contract were simple: Vaarsuvius gets the three Soul Splices and the fiends get control of their soul for the same duration as they benefited from them. And this is precisely what happened. Everything else was the fiends' marketing pitch, deliberately layered in obfuscation.
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    The levels should have stacked
    Why?
    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    V could have used elementary tactics too, like I don't know, casting their buffs before teleporting in. Gosh, it would have taken whole seconds to do. Plus, you know, used better spells too.
    Yes, it's almost as if "V treated magic as a cudgel" was a major theme of that whole arc, if not his entire characterization up to that point.
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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    No it doesn't. It just doesn't fulfill the prophecy the way you expected it to be fulfilled. That's not a issue with the story, that's an issue with your expectations.
    Honestly, at this point a prophecy being fullfilled through the most obvious, common sense interpretation of its phrasing would be one hell of a subversion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    The levels should have stacked; like it originally seemed they did.
    I was never under that impression when reading the pitch for the Soul Splice, and I don't get where you get it. The fiends offer V the spellcasting abilities of the spliced souls, not the sum of their saves and skill ranks.

    When you make a deal with a devil, you get exactly what you bargain for. No more, no less, and you often find out you made the wrong choice.

    V could have used elementary tactics too, like I don't know, casting their buffs before teleporting in. Gosh, it would have taken whole seconds to do. Plus, you know, used better spells too.
    That's the whole point of that arc! V doesn't play smart, is too impatient, and makes elementary mistakes. A character acting on their flaws is not poor writing.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    The terms of the contract were simple: Vaarsuvius gets the three Soul Splices and the fiends get control of their soul for the same duration as they benefited from them. And this is precisely what happened. Everything else was the fiends' marketing pitch, deliberately layered in obfuscation.
    The promise was that his power would dwarf any caster to ever live. If you want to find ways to spin the words you are welcome, but to me it's cheap and ruins the suspension of disbelief of the story. Why honour any of the terms, just twist all the words to mean different things, or say you meant the words according to their meaning in another language or whatever. I'm glad you enjoyed it. To me it was a cop out. You don't have "complete and ultimate arcane power" that "dwarfs any caster to ever live" if just one of the splices was easily more powerful than you.

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    The promise was that his power would dwarf any caster to ever live. If you want to find ways to spin the words you are welcome, but to me it's cheap and ruins the suspension of disbelief of the story. Why honour any of the terms, just twist all the words to mean different things, or say you meant the words according to their meaning in another language or whatever. I'm glad you enjoyed it. To me it was a cop out. You don't have "complete and ultimate arcane power" that "dwarfs any caster to ever live" if just one of the splices was easily more powerful than you.
    But Hearta wasn't more powerful than V. V had powers Hearta had not, like Ganonron's Epic Teleportation spell.

    Edit: Also, how in Hel's name does this have anything to do with supension of disbelief?
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2021-06-30 at 07:14 AM.

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    The promise was that his power would dwarf any caster to ever live.
    They had epic level casting, zero banned schools, and both prepared and arcane casting. Their power did dwarf any caster to ever live. That they used it foolishly does not mean that they didn't have it.

    If you wish for a billion dollars and then give it all to a guy who offers to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge, you still had a billion dollars. Nobody promised that you would be rich forever, that was just what you imagined what would happen.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-06-30 at 07:24 AM.
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  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    The promise was that his power would dwarf any caster to ever live.
    Probably should have asked for enough power to dwarf any caster to ever die :P

    But the point of V's soulsplice incident was that power which didn't come with a solid plan that respected your enemy's capabilities was power you weren't going to hang onto for very long, and no amount of spell slots will help you pass that concentration check...

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Silly Name View Post
    I was never under that impression when reading the pitch for the Soul Splice, and I don't get where you get it. The fiends offer V the spellcasting abilities of the spliced souls, not the sum of their saves and skill ranks.
    The archfiends said V would not gain any XP because their effective level would be too high. Interpreting that as "the levels stack for all purposes" is pretty reasonable in my opinion.
    (Personally I have no problem with those scenes but I can see where TooSoon is coming from)
    Last edited by hroşila; 2021-06-30 at 07:45 AM.
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  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    The fiends said, specifically, that "the amount of raw energy from your four combined souls would dwarf that wielded by any mortal arcane spellcaster who has ever lived". They did not say that it would allow V to easily defeat or destroy any other spellcaster. To again quote them from a later strip, V assumed that and they saw no need to correct.
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    The archfiends said V would not gain any XP because their effective level would be too high. Interpreting that as "the levels stack for all purposes" is pretty reasonable in my opinion.
    (Personally I have no problem with those scenes but I can see where TooSoon is coming from)
    That I can get. Still, the term "effective level", in 3.5 parlance, implies Level Adjustment - which is simply "you count as N levels higher than you really are for XP adjudication purposes, but gain no actual benefits". I can absolutely see a "Soul Splice" template carrying an hefty LA value, perhaps even depending on the souls getting spliced.

    Rules aside, I still insist that the whole point of a Faustian deal is that you get what you asked for. V was never promised "the full array of powers, capabilities and stats of the three spliced souls", but "[being allowed] to access all of the arcane powers the damned soul held while alive". Anything beyond that is not part of the deal.

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    But Hearta wasn't more powerful than V. V had powers Hearta had not, like Ganonron's Epic Teleportation spell.

    Edit: Also, how in Hel's name does this have anything to do with supension of disbelief?
    Durkon has powers Hearta didn't have. V wasn't promised the most varied powers, he was promised ultimate and complete power, that would dwarf any caster to ever live. Hearta lived at some point, and V was weaker than her. So he didn't dwarf the power of any other caster to ever live, or have complete and ultimate power. As I said, you can play with the words to make whatever disingenuous interpretations you like; but to me that's a let down.

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    Durkon has powers Hearta didn't have. V wasn't promised the most varied powers, he was promised ultimate and complete power, that would dwarf any caster to ever live.
    Arcane power. V asked the Oracle about Arcane power specifically and the Directors told Vm V wouldn't be able to replicate Divine Magic. If you missed that, it's because you weren't paying attention, not because the author wasn't clear.

    Hearta lived at some point, and V was weaker than her.
    V could cast all the spells she could and then some. V had more arcane power than she did. It's really not that complicated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    Durkon has powers Hearta didn't have. V wasn't promised the most varied powers, he was promised ultimate and complete power, that would dwarf any caster to ever live. Hearta lived at some point, and V was weaker than her. So he didn't dwarf the power of any other caster to ever live, or have complete and ultimate power. As I said, you can play with the words to make whatever disingenuous interpretations you like; but to me that's a let down.
    V was promised power through the use of the Soul Splice. As long as V held on the Splice, they had all the power of Haerta at their disposal, plus the power of other two epic casters, plus V's own power. This made V more powerful than Haerta, for a time.

    Poor application of that power was what made V lose. In their own words:
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaarsuvius
    No—No, you were not wrong, Durkon. It was... such a waste. It started out well, but it soon became naught but sound and fury. I squandered its true potential by wielding it like a cudgel. Only when I lost it did I stop to consider what I was doing, and only then did I become effective.
    Last edited by Silly Name; 2021-06-30 at 08:31 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    b) Is jobbed by a selective ignoring of the rules in the fight. In the final sequence of their battle Xykon gets 5 spells in a row to Dorukan's 1. That is not how the game mechanics work. Dorukan just stands there and lets Xykon cast energy drains over and over while casting almost no spells in reponse, and not even trying to teleport away. Abusrd.
    That's the thing about Energy Drain though, It drops your spell slots DRAMATICALLY. After the first energy drain in the 5 consecutive ones, Dorukan probably didn't have any teleports LEFT (if he even prepped any that day).

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    and the lack of originality (really, energy drain again?)
    He's a Sorcerer, they only have so many ways to deal with stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    Durkon has powers Hearta didn't have. V wasn't promised the most varied powers, he was promised ultimate and complete power, that would dwarf any caster to ever live. Hearta lived at some point, and V was weaker than her.
    V by definition wasn't less powerful, since she had Hestia + 2 others and her own power. So when the fiends granted the contract, she was stronger than anyone we know of living in the OotS verse.

    Also even afterwards V still had WAY more slots than Hestia, so still most powerful in terms of raw magic power that could be thrown around.
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    Durkon has powers Hearta didn't have.
    Divine powers.
    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    V wasn't promised the most varied powers, he was promised ultimate and complete power
    ultimate and complete arcane power
    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    Hearta lived at some point, and V was weaker than her.
    How do you come to this conclusion?

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    Durkon has powers Hearta didn't have. V wasn't promised the most varied powers, he was promised ultimate and complete power, that would dwarf any caster to ever live.
    Panel 5. Any arcane caster.

    Well, technically, any "arcane" caster but I don't exactly think I'm taking a leap of faith on the typo here.
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    As for Dorukan, just to clarify for anyone interested, the final sequence in the disappointing fight with Xykon goes as follows: Xykon casts 2 energy drains. Dorukan gets one non-specific blast spell of some kind. Xykon casts 3 further energy drains. What sort of satisfying rules based fight is that? Never mind all the stuff that came before that point. Yeh, ok, Rich can toss the rules when he likes, but he's also writing a story which (whether he likes it or not in hindsight) has been written in a D&D rules based context. In fact, Rich has in the past done an amazing job in providing rules based explanations of how certain fights he depicted could have worked. This is not one of those occasions, and I suspect I'm not alone in finding it unsatisfying when Xykon could so easily have been depicted as having a legitimate win given his likely level at that point.
    Here's what the Giant said about that. You may or may not find it a satisfying response:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    The fact of the matter is that there is no possible set of tactics that would ever satisfy the folks who have decided that wizards are always prepared for everything, and therefore, it is a waste of space for me to show such a battle in any more detail than I did. If I had spent six pages showing a complex back-and-forth, the same people would still be complaining because they would claim that the wizard should have prepared such-and-such spell—and then I would have wasted six pages of a finite physical book that could have been devoted to the actual story. It's a moving target that I will never be able to hit, so I've long since stopped trying.

    Because let's face it: Dorukan is irrelevant. Narratively speaking, he doesn't matter at all. When you start reading that book, you already know that Xykon kills him and takes over his dungeon. There's no tension there. All the tension in that battle revolves around what Redcloak is going to do about his brother, and that's resolved on the page before. Once that's out of the way, the actual death of Dorukan is an extraneous piece of bookkeeping that needs to be dispensed with in order to get on to the next important part—namely, the final conversation between Xykon and Redcloak. That I even spent three-quarters of a page on it is attributed solely to completing Xykon's "arc," bookending the opening scene with the ersatz Professor X by actualizing the character's emergent philosophy. A bunch of fancy countermeasures and tricks by Dorukan would just undermine the impact of what Xykon was saying.

    If it helps, think of that page as a montage scene rather than a direct moment-to-moment narrative. I'm sure Dorukan pulled out a spell or two between panels, but since they obviously didn't affect the outcome (because we all know he died before strip #1), I didn't need to show them. It also would have been equally valid for me to just have started page 106 with Xykon holding Dorukan's dead body (which would really have had the wizards-are-always-prepared people howling). Because all you really need to know for the story is, "And then Xykon killed Dorukan." Form follows function, and there's no dramatic function to be had in dwelling on the minutiae of a foregone conclusion.

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Is it possible that by the time of the energy drain spam Dorukan had run out of spell slots? I can imagine an Abjurer going nuts with resist/protection spells till he's left with nothing below 4th level except cantrips.

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    As for Dorukan, just to clarify for anyone interested, the final sequence in the disappointing fight with Xykon goes as follows: Xykon casts 2 energy drains. Dorukan gets one non-specific blast spell of some kind. Xykon casts 3 further energy drains. What sort of satisfying rules based fight is that? Never mind all the stuff that came before that point. Yeh, ok, Rich can toss the rules when he likes, but he's also writing a story which (whether he likes it or not in hindsight) has been written in a D&D rules based context. In fact, Rich has in the past done an amazing job in providing rules based explanations of how certain fights he depicted could have worked. This is not one of those occasions, and I suspect I'm not alone in finding it unsatisfying when Xykon could so easily have been depicted as having a legitimate win given his likely level at that point.
    Haven't read it, but if Xykon beat Dorukan on initiative and was using quickened energy drains that's 2 drains before Dorukan gets to respond, which can knock up to 8 levels and spell slots off of him, when he responds with something weak (because it's all he's got left) before 2 more energy drains knock him down to nothing but low level spells probably full of mostly utility stuff that's not even worth casting.

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Silly Name View Post
    When you make a deal with a devil, you get exactly what you bargain for. No more, no less, and you often find out you made the wrong choice.
    More like you always find out you made the wrong choice. Either you asked for the wrong thing in the first place, or the devil uses a loophole, or you find out the cost is much worse than the benefit you bargained for. The whole point of a good Faustian story is that the bargainer trades their soul for something that is of far less worth.

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    Is it possible that by the time of the energy drain spam Dorukan had run out of spell slots? I can imagine an Abjurer going nuts with resist/protection spells till he's left with nothing below 4th level except cantrips.
    I don't think most arcane spells protect against Energy Drain or Enervation, abjuration or not. At most he might be able to counterspell until that point, but Xykon has more spell slots either way.

    I mean in theory, Dorukan could cast (Limited) Wish to duplicate Death Ward, but Xykon would probably have more epic slots to Superb Dispel the pants off Dorukan and both versions burn hefty amounts of XP anyways. Also there actually aren't many ways to protect against such a number of Energy Drains for an arcane caster even through items; the lack of armor makes it hard to use a Soulfire enchantment and bracers of the death deity bestow negative levels on a Good wearer. Those are about the only ways to be flat out immune to Energy Drain and the sheer number Xykon cast would punch through lesser degrees of defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Haven't read it, but if Xykon beat Dorukan on initiative and was using quickened energy drains that's 2 drains before Dorukan gets to respond, which can knock up to 8 levels and spell slots off of him, when he responds with something weak (because it's all he's got left) before 2 more energy drains knock him down to nothing but low level spells probably full of mostly utility stuff that's not even worth casting.
    I personally interpret that as an artistic choice rather than a strict rules-based one. I have a DM who sometimes bends the rules when the end effect would be the same anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    More like you always find out you made the wrong choice. Either you asked for the wrong thing in the first place, or the devil uses a loophole, or you find out the cost is much worse than the benefit you bargained for. The whole point of a good Faustian story is that the bargainer trades their soul for something that is of far less worth.
    I assume the devil flat out breaking his end of the bargain or something like that isn't particularly a good Faustian story?
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I assume the devil flat out breaking his end of the bargain or something like that isn't particularly a good Faustian story?
    No. In what I consider a good Faustian story the devil always plays strictly by the letter of the bargain. The rules and safeguards the bargainer thought would let him get the better of the deal never work out as he had expected.

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    The story here is that the Scribblers were very capable, but were only well practiced at epic level fights while in a team. Going on a solo career, they were still capable, but their personal philosophies left them with gaps and weaknesses of which they lacked awareness.

    Xykon, however, built up his abilities specifically so he could beat other spellcasters in solo fights. It is hardly a perfect plan, but the combination of Supreme Dispelling plus Energy Drain is likely to prevail in a fight that lasts more than two rounds.

    For the record, the last time I played a high level wizard, I would Quicken Truestrike + Disintegrate to specifically deal with powerful individuals, especially Undead.* The odds of Xykon surviving to the third round would be very low, and I would have a fair chance of winning with all my 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th level spell slots stripped away. But that was my wizard, not Dorukan.

    That Dorukan had a habit of relying on his Paladin, Cleric, Druid friends for taking care of such threats, rather than have his own tactical plan, is not unreasonable, in my eyes.


    ----

    * In 3e, the specific weakness of high level undead is that have a no Con score.

    That seems like a strength at low level, because they had a d12 for HPs and are immune to a host of annoying threats like poison. But at high level, it is a serious weakness because (d12 + 0) HP/level is not very good at levels that everyone has a strong positive Con mod. Worst still, their Fort save is abysmal for lack of that Con mod -- this would be a huge problem for a sorcerer like Xykon.

    Xykon probably only has something like 130 to 170 HPs when fighting Dorukan. One lucky Disintegrate might finish him in Round One.

    As for people who complain about complete lack of optimization, V used Disintegrate twice against an individual undead creature in his Azure City fight. V being V, s/he so happened to be very unlucky there. But it was quite possible for V to dust that enemy with one spell.

  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    No. In what I consider a good Faustian story the devil always plays strictly by the letter of the bargain. The rules and safeguards the bargainer thought would let him get the better of the deal never work out as he had expected.
    Both Faustian bargains and prophecy should be fulfilled, but not quite how either the characters or audience expects.

    I think V is satisfied that the IFCC fulfilled their end, as did the Oracle.

    As a reader, I would not say this is the most elegant example, but I am satisfied as well.

  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    No. In what I consider a good Faustian story the devil always plays strictly by the letter of the bargain. The rules and safeguards the bargainer thought would let him get the better of the deal never work out as he had expected.
    Yeah, it's kind of important to the deal with the devil storyline that people who would make a deal with the devil are making the wrong choices.

    If they were making the right choices, they wouldn't be making a deal with the devil in the first place.

    Like in most cases, V got exactly what they wanted.

    They didn't get what they needed, and that was a problem for them.

  28. - Top - End - #88
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Yeah, it's kind of important to the deal with the devil storyline that people who would make a deal with the devil are making the wrong choices.

    If they were making the right choices, they wouldn't be making a deal with the devil in the first place.

    Like in most cases, V got exactly what they wanted.

    They didn't get what they needed, and that was a problem for them.
    Except in folktales where the devil is the one who end up conned.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2021-06-30 at 01:55 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Honestly, at this point a prophecy being fullfilled through the most obvious, common sense interpretation of its phrasing would be one hell of a subversion.
    Maybe that's why people keep trying to figure out ways for Belkar to die, despite nothing else really fitting all of the pieces we've been told.

    Beyond that, looking through the discussion, it basically seems like TooSoon's argument is "V should have won, but didn't and that's bad" while pretty much ignoring the actual context and point of that entire section of the story.
    I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    Beyond that, looking through the discussion, it basically seems like TooSoon's argument is "V should have won, but didn't and that's bad" while pretty much ignoring the actual context and point of that entire section of the story.
    I think that's very unfair. TooSoon said they liked every other aspect of that arc a lot, so clearly they were fine with where it was going (and thus with V having to lose at that point of the story). What they said is that they didn't find that part of the story convincing because, in their mind, there was a discrepancy between the prophecy and the terms of the deal, and the power V actually got/the way it was taken from them. TooSoon isn't saying that the way to address this should have been to make V win, but to change the prophecy and the terms of the deal. Which you can disagree with (I do), but it's not the argument you're portraying it as.
    Last edited by hroşila; 2021-06-30 at 02:39 PM.
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