A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Yes, V lost because they used their massive amount of power in stupid fashion. THAT'S THE POINT. V got overconfident, and, in a life-or-death fight, even a minor screw-up can get you killed. All the power in the world won't help you if you apply it poorly. Xykon isn't really much of a strategist himself, granted, but he's had years more experience from the best possible teacher for combat strategy: Being in combat, a lot, and not dying. V had the effective level of 3 epic-level spellcasters, but not the experience, and that was crucial, because it meant they mis-applied their power.
    Last edited by woweedd; 2021-06-30 at 02:47 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by hrožila View Post
    I think that's very unfair. TooSoon said they liked every other aspect of that arc a lot, so clearly they were fine with where it was going (and thus with V having to lose at that point of the story). What they said is that they didn't find that part of the story convincing because, in their mind, there was a discrepancy between the prophecy and the terms of the deal, and the power V actually got/the way it was taken from them. TooSoon isn't saying that the way to address this should have been to make V win, but to change the prophecy and the terms of the deal. Which you can disagree with (I do), but it's not the argument you're portraying it as.
    But their premise seems very based in the notion that there was no reasonable way V could lose, at least not without being stupid about it. So, again, missing the entire point.
    I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    But their premise seems very based in the notion that there was no reasonable way V could lose, at least not without being stupid about it. So, again, missing the entire point.
    There was no reasonable way V could lose without being stupid about it.

    Unfortunately V was currently spending all of their time being both unreasonable and rather stupid.

    That's why they thought they had all the tools they needed to brute force a win just because they had lots of spell slots, and tried to do so.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Yeah, it's kind of important to the deal with the devil storyline that people who would make a deal with the devil are making the wrong choices.

    If they were making the right choices, they wouldn't be making a deal with the devil in the first place.

    Like in most cases, V got exactly what they wanted.

    They didn't get what they needed, and that was a problem for them.
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    There was no reasonable way V could lose without being stupid about it.

    Unfortunately V was currently spending all of their time being both unreasonable and rather stupid.

    That's why they thought they had all the tools they needed to brute force a win just because they had lots of spell slots, and tried to do so.
    Further, said unreasonable-ness and stupidity were rather in keeping with their existing personality and more specifically with how they'd been making decisions up to that point. It's only an Idiot Ball if someone suddenly starts acting like an idiot; the option of still being an idiot after they get their power up isn't that.
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  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    There was no reasonable way V could lose without being stupid about it.

    Unfortunately V was currently spending all of their time being both unreasonable and rather stupid.

    That's why they thought they had all the tools they needed to brute force a win just because they had lots of spell slots, and tried to do so.
    That doesn't hurt my point, though.
    I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by The MunchKING View Post
    That's the thing about Energy Drain though, It drops your spell slots DRAMATICALLY. After the first energy drain in the 5 consecutive ones, Dorukan probably didn't have any teleports LEFT (if he even prepped any that day).



    He's a Sorcerer, they only have so many ways to deal with stuff.



    V by definition wasn't less powerful, since she had Hestia + 2 others and her own power. So when the fiends granted the contract, she was stronger than anyone we know of living in the OotS verse.

    Also even afterwards V still had WAY more slots than Hestia, so still most powerful in terms of raw magic power that could be thrown around.
    So to focus on some of the replies I've seen:
    1) Even the author is admitting the fight didn't follow the rules satisfactorily, someone quoted him saying as much. If people don't care, that's cool, but I disagree that there was no more satisfying way of showing it. By showing it in an obviously rules incorrect way it actually undermines "emergent philosophy" Xykon is presenting, because it's not proving his point at all; it's proving if the guy he fights is jobbed then you win because you're cool no matter what point you think you're making. In fact while I'm very partial to the advantages of the sorcerer class it's actually convincing me of the opposite point, because all Dorukan has to do is teleport away and come back with better prep, and Xykon's counter to that is... nothing. He doesn't have dimensional anchor, so he has to just to hope every strong wizard he fights is railroaded by the plot basically. This leads me to the next point.
    2) I think some people on here misunderstand how energy drain works. There's basically no way the first energy drain could have taken his teleport spells, and if Dorukan didn't prepare any other teleport spells are we to be satisfied with that explanation? Sorcerer trumps the Wizard class because the Wizard teleports out to fight without any way of getting back? The moral I'd take from that would be "if the wizard acts like an idiot and engages in suicidal behavior, sorcerer is the better class", because look at all the things that need to go right for the sorcerer to win:
    - The Wizard needs to not prepare using scrying, etc
    - The Wizard needs to not protect from negative energy even though this is easy and goes hand in hand with lichs
    - The Wizard needs to teleport out to fight you with the wrong spells, and teleports left to bail
    - The Wizard needs to fight foolishly
    - The Wizard needs to stand there like a dummy while you get 5 spells to 1 of his own.
    To me the takeaway would be the sorcerer is the fool, who was bailed by plot armour, not that Wizards are arrogantly overlooking something by underestimating the sorcerer. If you're a moron you're a moron, no matter what class you have.
    3) Saying "imagine other stuff was going on between panels" is basically the same thing I was saying; "we need to imagine a better fight to substitute for what actually happened". Personally I can't imagine what this better fight is based on the panels as they are shown, or what spells Dorukan is casting, maybe with enough imagination I could do it (though probably not in a way that makes Dorukan look like anything other than a moron; in which case how did he even live long enough to become Epic?). Nor does the flight spell work that way, being dismissed by energy drain. Maybe I should imagine that happened differently too. In my imagination where I disregard the actual panels I guess Dorukan actually won the fight. Cool!
    4) V has less power than Hearta, even with all 3 splices, cos he's operating off his crap base stats and the other 2 splices add nothing except diversity since they're so far below Hearta. It would be like me saying a level 10 wizard is more powerful than an Epic Wizard because of a prestige class that grants him more cantrips; he'd have "more" spells, but it wouldn't make him more powerful. As I said, I believe the author made a lot of revisions to the story to sell this fight, and it ended up much better than it was looking like it'd shape up, but for me it's a cop out from the actual ultimate and complete arcane power that dwarfs any caster to ever live promise. I mean, there were casters who ascended to godhood, never mind Hearta. I think the originaly way the splice was going to work would have lived up to all of this; namely having the levels stack. Unfortunately the revised version is pretty unsatisfying to me.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Or, instead of imagining things that make this not work, you could imagine things that make it work. I don't think of wizards as Batman in the OOTS setting because, so far, not a single one has been close to that. YMMV.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    So to focus on some of the replies I've seen:
    1) Even the author is admitting the fight didn't follow the rules satisfactorily, someone quoted him saying as much.
    "Quickened energy drain covereth a multitude of sins". Well just that one really, but still.

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    2)
    - The Wizard needs to not prepare using scrying, etc
    And the Sorc can't prep... Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    - The Wizard needs to not protect from negative energy even though this is easy and goes hand in hand with lichs
    With that Divine magic he was so fond of casting?

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    - The Wizard needs to teleport out to fight you with the wrong spells, and teleports left to bail
    Energy drain gets rid of all the highest spell slots he had left, and Xkon prepped for the fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    - The Wizard needs to fight foolishly
    Or the Sorc fights Intelligently.

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    - The Wizard needs to stand there like a dummy while you get 5 spells to 1 of his own.
    Well you know casting times are a thing. If Energy Drain takes off all his highest spell slots, that would naturally include pretty much any spell he had Quickened. SO it may be he TRIED to cast but Xykon didn't leave him alone for long enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    To me the takeaway would be the sorcerer is the fool,
    Why? He was the one that was smart. He got protection from his major weakness, and used spells designed to stop the guy he was fighting in the most efficient manner. What's foolish about that?

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    3) Nor does the flight spell work that way, being dismissed by energy drain. Maybe I should imagine that happened differently too. In my imagination where I disregard the actual panels I guess Dorukan actually won the fight. Cool!
    That wasn't that the flight spell was dispelled, it was Duroken didn't concentrate on going up. :D

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    4) V has less power than Hearta, even with all 3 splices, cos he's operating off his crap base stats and the other 2 splices add nothing except diversity since they're so far below Hearta. It would be like me saying a level 10 wizard is more powerful than an Epic Wizard because of a prestige class that grants him more cantrips; he'd have "more" spells, but it wouldn't make him more powerful.
    She had more Epic spell slots. This isn't Infinite Cantrips, it's H+G+S number of BEYOND MAXIMUM Magic, and an additional full 3 sets of 20 levels of caster classes to boot.

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    I mean, there were casters who ascended to godhood, never mind Hearta.
    I'm sure you have examples of that in Oots, right? Not just something you made up?
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  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by The MunchKING View Post
    "Quickened energy drain covereth a multitude of sins". Well just that one really, but still.



    And the Sorc can't prep... Why?



    With that Divine magic he was so fond of casting?



    Energy drain gets rid of all the highest spell slots he had left, and Xkon prepped for the fight.



    Or the Sorc fights Intelligently.



    Well you know casting times are a thing. If Energy Drain takes off all his highest spell slots, that would naturally include pretty much any spell he had Quickened. SO it may be he TRIED to cast but Xykon didn't leave him alone for long enough.



    Why? He was the one that was smart. He got protection from his major weakness, and used spells designed to stop the guy he was fighting in the most efficient manner. What's foolish about that?



    That wasn't that the flight spell was dispelled, it was Duroken didn't concentrate on going up. :D



    She had more Epic spell slots. This isn't Infinite Cantrips, it's H+G+S number of BEYOND MAXIMUM Magic, and an additional full 3 sets of 20 levels of caster classes to boot.



    I'm sure you have examples of that in Oots, right? Not just something you made up?
    1) The word quicken appears nowhere in the panel.
    2) Quickened energy drains would use level 13 spell slots. Also problematic.
    3) Well Dorukan's place is warded by an Epic anti-scrying spell. Xykon is not.
    4) There are plenty of ways for Dorukan to protect himself from negative energy
    5) Energy drain gets rid of the highest slots first. Teleport is a 5th level spell. It is implausible (or ridiculous, take your pick) for Dorukan to teleport out to fight Xykon, having no way to teleport back.
    6) Dorukan isn't casting bad spells in the final sequence. He's casting NO spells at all. Xykon just wails on him while he does nothing. Ridiculous.
    7) The sorcerer is the fool for assuming he can beat an Epic wizard with no idea what prep the Wizard has made in the months the siege has gone on, and no way to prevent him bailing to adjust after you show more of your hand. Xykon's strategy relies on Dorukan being an idiot basically, at least in the way the fight is presented. If Dorukan was protected from negative energy, then what?
    8) The panel clearly depicts the energy drain somehow dismissing the flight spell, which is ridiculous. Nor does "he lost his concentration work", because he doesn't have to make concentration checks while flying and it requires "no more concentration than walking". How preposterous would a fight be if Roy forgot how to walk in the middle of the fight after being hit with a spell like that? Plus if the spell expires from concentration Dorukan should still float safely to the ground. Even you don't take this justification seriously.
    9) V having "more" spells is meaningless when they're all far lower level than the person he's fighting, which is why I used the cantrip example to show how silly this logic is. Hearta is so far beyond the other splices they might as well be cantrips in terms of the level difference. As I said, if you want to be satisfied with this kind of logic you can be. To me it is unsatisfying and feels like a cheat. More accurately it feels like the original way the splice was going to work, with the levels stacking, was retroactively changed to help sell the Xykon fight.
    10) OOTS tells us of Elves who ascended to their own pantheon, V even worships one of them.
    Last edited by TooSoon; 2021-06-30 at 09:48 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    I'm pretty sure Thor talked about mortals ascending to godhood with the help of pre-existing gods. I think this was while he was talking about how weird it is that the Dark One ascended without anyone's help. Probably, at least one ascended mortal was a spellcaster. Though I don't believe we have any specific cases of ascension to point at other than the Dark One. And I don't think it was ever established what class the Dark One was before ascending.

    Speaking of Quicken Spell and Xykon being epic, I suppose 5 spells to 1 is actually doable.
    Xykon's Turn: *casts a regular spell*, *casts a Quickened spell*, *casts another quickened spell*
    Dorukon's Turn: *cats a regular spell*, *doesn't cast a Quickened spell for whatever reason*
    Xykon's Turn: *casts a regular spell*, *casts a Quickened spell*, *casts another … no wait I guess he's dead

    It does leave the question of why Dorukon didn't have any Quicken Metamagic Rods.

    Edit: Is there any reason established why the good guys haven't resurrected any powerful do-gooders other than Roy? Actually, wait, Roy isn't powerful. Is there any reason established why the good guys haven't resurrected any powerful do-gooders?
    Last edited by Maat Mons; 2021-06-30 at 10:03 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    I'm pretty sure Thor talked about mortals ascending to godhood with the help of pre-existing gods. I think this was while he was talking about how weird it is that the Dark One ascended without anyone's help. Probably, at least one ascended mortal was a spellcaster. Though I don't believe we have any specific cases of ascension to point at other than the Dark One. And I don't think it was ever established what class the Dark One was before ascending.

    Speaking of Quicken Spell and Xykon being epic, I suppose 5 spells to 1 is actually doable.
    Xykon's Turn: *casts a regular spell*, *casts a Quickened spell*, *casts another quickened spell*
    Dorukon's Turn: *cats a regular spell*, *doesn't cast a Quickened spell for whatever reason*
    Xykon's Turn: *casts a regular spell*, *casts a Quickened spell*, *casts another … no wait I guess he's dead

    It does leave the question of why Dorukon didn't have any Quicken Metamagic Rods.

    Edit: Is there any reason established why the good guys haven't resurrected any powerful do-gooders other than Roy? Actually, wait, Roy isn't powerful. Is there any reason established why the good guys haven't resurrected any powerful do-gooders?
    1) They weren't written as quickened spells, and we know what that looks like.
    2) Am I missing something here? Xykon can't cast 2 quickened spells in a row, just 1.
    3) I've opined before that it's rather bizarre they haven't gotten V's master involved by now. Maybe they have off panel.

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    I'll grant you Xykon's spells not being Quickened. I mean, I haven't gone back and looked. But if he didn't say "quickened" when casting them, then by the conventions of this comic, they weren't quickened.

    But yes, epic characters can cast multiple Quickened spells in a round.

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    I'll grant you Xykon's spells not being Quickened. I mean, I haven't gone back and looked. But if he didn't say "quickened" when casting them, then by the conventions of this comic, they weren't quickened.

    But yes, epic characters can cast multiple Quickened spells in a round.
    With an Epic feat we have no indication Xykon has, and has never used since or after then? So just as unsatisfying; and as you agree, in violation of the conventions of the comic.

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    So to focus on some of the replies I've seen:
    1) Even the author is admitting the fight didn't follow the rules satisfactorily, someone quoted him saying as much. If people don't care, that's cool, but I disagree that there was no more satisfying way of showing it. By showing it in an obviously rules incorrect way it actually undermines "emergent philosophy" Xykon is presenting, because it's not proving his point at all; it's proving if the guy he fights is jobbed then you win because you're cool no matter what point you think you're making. In fact while I'm very partial to the advantages of the sorcerer class it's actually convincing me of the opposite point, because all Dorukan has to do is teleport away and come back with better prep, and Xykon's counter to that is... nothing. He doesn't have dimensional anchor, so he has to just to hope every strong wizard he fights is railroaded by the plot basically. This leads me to the next point.
    Yeah and Tsukiko wouldnt have lost against Redcloak if she had checked for the magic wards in Redclaok´s room. And Roy might have beaten Xykon ages ago if he was a wozard like his father. And Belkar wouldnt be constantly losing for failing will saves if he had taken measures earlier. And I could go on and on with examples. A lot of things might happen differently if a character had taken an optimal decision but that is not how life works. People make mistakes all the time, circumstances change, something goes wrong or we make the wrong assumptions.

    Its a really flawed premise, you are presenting here. Why would he have to prepare teleport at all? He has some of the best defenses out there. They had even kept Xykon at bay And I dont think there was any establishment of him needing to leave his dungeon that day. So, tell me why would this EPIC person who spent most of later life holed up in a dungeon with nearly unbreakable defenses need to prepare teleportation in his every day situation? What could someone of his level be a big enough threat for him to really need such defensive measure?

    Even with the previous knowledge of Xykon being there, Dorukan never actually saw him as an actual threat. He jumped pretty confidently at Xykon probably thinking anything he had prepared that day would be enough to deal with Xykon. I will add that he didnt prepare for the fight with Xykon, he jumped into a fight when he heard about his loved one. It was a fight on an impulse and he wasnt prepared to face one.

    2) I think some people on here misunderstand how energy drain works. There's basically no way the first energy drain could have taken his teleport spells, and if Dorukan didn't prepare any other teleport spells are we to be satisfied with that explanation? Sorcerer trumps the Wizard class because the Wizard teleports out to fight without any way of getting back? The moral I'd take from that would be "if the wizard acts like an idiot and engages in suicidal behavior, sorcerer is the better class", because look at all the things that need to go right for the sorcerer to win:
    - The Wizard needs to not prepare using scrying, etc
    - The Wizard needs to not protect from negative energy even though this is easy and goes hand in hand with lichs
    - The Wizard needs to teleport out to fight you with the wrong spells, and teleports left to bail
    - The Wizard needs to fight foolishly
    - The Wizard needs to stand there like a dummy while you get 5 spells to 1 of his own.
    To me the takeaway would be the sorcerer is the fool, who was bailed by plot armour, not that Wizards are arrogantly overlooking something by underestimating the sorcerer. If you're a moron you're a moron, no matter what class you have.
    My takeaway from your takeaway is, be perfect, always have the perfect condition in your favor, and always be omniscient and paranoic.

    For me the real takeaway from the battle is that sorcerer can beat wizard because different strenghts mean different advantages and disadvantages. Wizard wont always lose but it can lose.

    4) V has less power than Hearta, even with all 3 splices, cos he's operating off his crap base stats and the other 2 splices add nothing except diversity since they're so far below Hearta. It would be like me saying a level 10 wizard is more powerful than an Epic Wizard because of a prestige class that grants him more cantrips; he'd have "more" spells, but it wouldn't make him more powerful. As I said, I believe the author made a lot of revisions to the story to sell this fight, and it ended up much better than it was looking like it'd shape up, but for me it's a cop out from the actual ultimate and complete arcane power that dwarfs any caster to ever live promise. I mean, there were casters who ascended to godhood, never mind Hearta. I think the originaly way the splice was going to work would have lived up to all of this; namely having the levels stack. Unfortunately the revised version is pretty unsatisfying to me.
    He has the combined spell lists of three epic spellcasters and can even cast them spontaneously. Isnt that enough? One of the two "weaker" wizards has epic teleportation, that one spell above the one that you seem to value so much that you are arguing on the stupidity of another caster for not using. It even gave access to the two barred schools that V has. How is that not amazing enough?
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    Edit: Is there any reason established why the good guys haven't resurrected any powerful do-gooders other than Roy? Actually, wait, Roy isn't powerful. Is there any reason established why the good guys haven't resurrected any powerful do-gooders?
    The good guys don't have the corpse of any powerful do-gooders, which means they'd need either true resurrection or wish to bring them back, and their spellcasters aren't capable of casting 9th level spells.
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    5) Energy drain gets rid of the highest slots first. Teleport is a 5th level spell. It is implausible (or ridiculous, take your pick) for Dorukan to teleport out to fight Xykon, having no way to teleport back.
    Highest level UNUSED spell slots, and by that point Dorukan had been throwing out some high level spells. (I actually thought it was more spell slots, but looking at enervation it says one spell slot per negative level. So he must have also been blowing those concentration checks.)

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    7) The sorcerer is the fool for assuming he can beat an Epic wizard with no idea what prep the Wizard has made in the months the siege has gone on, and no way to prevent him bailing to adjust after you show more of your hand. Xykon's strategy relies on Dorukan being an idiot basically, at least in the way the fight is presented. If Dorukan was protected from negative energy, then what?
    He beats him to death like he did the other four or so caster classes he fought? I mean you're acting like Dorukan could counter everything Xykon could do. Not only is it not really possible with what we know Dorukan knew about Xykon's casting capabilities, he rushed out there as soon as Xykon showed him the gem, thus not having time for buffs. Another smart play by Xykon.

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    8) The panel clearly depicts the energy drain somehow dismissing the flight spell, which is ridiculous.
    I have a copy of the book. It doesn't dispel the Magic, he just floats downward as he's taking more energy drains.

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    Nor does "he lost his concentration work", because he doesn't have to make concentration checks while flying and it requires "no more concentration than walking". How preposterous would a fight be if Roy forgot how to walk in the middle of the fight after being hit with a spell like that?
    Yeah Roy has NEVER lost the ability to walk after being hit with a spell.

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    9) V having "more" spells is meaningless when they're all far lower level than the person he's fighting, which is why I used the cantrip example to show how silly this logic is. Hearta is so far beyond the other splices they might as well be cantrips in terms of the level difference.
    Not true. As we saw, Energy Drain can beat even Epic mages. 14 extra Energy Drains is way better than Hestia alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    10) OOTS tells us of Elves who ascended to their own pantheon, V even worships one of them.
    And you of course have proof they were Arcane Casters, and not Rangers, Druids, or any of the other stereotypical Elvish classes, right?
    "Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    Edit: Is there any reason established why the good guys haven't resurrected any powerful do-gooders other than Roy? Actually, wait, Roy isn't powerful. Is there any reason established why the good guys haven't resurrected any powerful do-gooders?
    They died more than a score of years ago, their souls were bound, or they died of old age; depending on which powerful do-gooders you're talking about.

    Also I guess the Souls refused to come back that time they tried.
    "Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Even if you handwave the body requirement (oh, someone just cut off a finger or the like and ran to Durkon!), how many "powerful do-gooders" in the story are even dead in the first place?

    The Scribblers are all out of bounds for various reasons: Girard and Soon died from old age, Dorukan and Lirian are soul-bound, Serini's still alive, and Kraagor was clearly beyond the reach of even epic magic.

    Shojo explicitly refused to come back from the dead (and his power was purely political and consequently wouldn't add up to much even if he has a change of heart in the afterlife). The various resistance fighters and elven commandos in Azure City were mid-level and aren't really going to have anything to bring to the table.

    I'm away from book but I'm pretty sure Fyron was zombified or soulbound or something else that made his return to life practically impossible (otherwise Eugene would have been able to rez him after Xykon left).

    That leaves... who, exactly? Miko? Setting aside the fact that her arc is clearly done, she's also not going to be offering anything game-changing from a purely mechanical point of view. At this point O-Chul and Lien are probably more capable than she was, and Roy significantly more so.

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by The MunchKING View Post

    And you of course have proof they were Arcane Casters, and not Rangers, Druids, or any of the other stereotypical Elvish classes, right?
    I don't know if we know anything about the elves, but hey, we do have knowledge of at least one of the few mortals to ever ascend! The Dark One was clearly some kind of Wizard, right? Definitely not some kind of Martial Leader of mengoblins. Clearly it's acts of Arcane Power that make someone a God and not, say, the collective beliefs of a large number of non-magical mortals, right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post
    So a ranger is like a Bachelor of Applied Druidology.
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    So to focus on some of the replies I've seen:
    1) Even the author is admitting the fight didn't follow the rules satisfactorily, someone quoted him saying as much
    The author was quoted as saying that the fight would not satisfy all people, so he chose to not worry about satisfying all people. That is different from saying that the fight did not follow the rules satisfactorily. Also, as for "following the rules", see below:


    Bolding/snipping mine:
    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    2) I think some people on here misunderstand how energy drain works.
    [snip]
    Nor does the flight spell work that way
    Italics not mine:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    If you are looking for moment-to-moment rules accuracy from this comic, you probably should stop reading. You are guaranteed to be continually frustrated and disappointed, because I don't care about that at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    4) V has less power than Hearta
    V had more arcane power than Hearta, since V has V's arcane power and Hearta's arcane power and two other arcane casters' arcane power. V was specifically only ever offered raw arcane power. Stats do not come into play.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-06-30 at 11:38 PM.
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurgeh View Post
    Even if you handwave the body requirement (oh, someone just cut off a finger or the like and ran to Durkon!), how many "powerful do-gooders" in the story are even dead in the first place?

    The Scribblers are all out of bounds for various reasons: Girard and Soon died from old age, Dorukan and Lirian are soul-bound, Serini's still alive, and Kraagor was clearly beyond the reach of even epic magic.

    Shojo explicitly refused to come back from the dead (and his power was purely political and consequently wouldn't add up to much even if he has a change of heart in the afterlife). The various resistance fighters and elven commandos in Azure City were mid-level and aren't really going to have anything to bring to the table.

    I'm away from book but I'm pretty sure Fyron was zombified or soulbound or something else that made his return to life practically impossible (otherwise Eugene would have been able to rez him after Xykon left).

    That leaves... who, exactly? Miko? Setting aside the fact that her arc is clearly done, she's also not going to be offering anything game-changing from a purely mechanical point of view. At this point O-Chul and Lien are probably more capable than she was, and Roy significantly more so.
    There were probably at least some black dragons that had a good alignment who were caught up in the familicide, and dragons aren't anything to sneeze at even from a young age. Milk Dudes was also "like unto [a] tiny refreshing god" assuming it's possible to raise him, though we have no idea what alignment he was. The entire Creed of Stone probably had at least one good character too, and they were all pretty powerful clerics. If Horace didn't die of old age it's possible to raise him, I'm not sure he's been dead longer than 160 years and even if he was it'd still technically be possible; an epic resurrection spell that could reach back to the very first moment of the current world wouldn't be that hard to make or cast. Ho Thahn would also be worthy I'd say.

    Oh, and then there's Solt Lurkyurg, clearly the greatest force of good to ever exist.
    Last edited by RatElemental; 2021-07-01 at 12:02 AM.

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by hungrycrow View Post
    Xykon somehow got an item to protect himself from positive energy, so Dorukan could have managed it if he wanted to.

    Death effects are one of the basic things optimized characters defend themselves against at high level, because dying is bad. OotS characters aren't optimized though, so I guess Dorukan never figured this out despite making it to epic levels?
    Search the forums for all the “basic magic items any smart high level player surely must have”, make an exhaustive list, including custom items like death ward apparently, and I’m sure it will exceed PC WBL 20+ fold, let alone NPC WBL. And yeah that’s epic WBL or it’d be 500+ fold. Defensive items in particular are notoriously bad offenders. And I’m sure nobody in OotS is perfectly optimized either. But even if they were I doubt it would remotely resemble the defend-against-everything concept that keeps appearing. Unless made affordable by infinite loop, in which case there’s no plot left… and via the same method they can likely bypass any defense too. Instead usually the winner has a good attack plan and limited defenses that aren’t so narrow.

    But also I think Xykon is probably higher level and he’s been underestimated many times. He seems to imply that with big enough hammer statements. And usually ya if you’re a few or several levels higher it’s hard to be beat even if you’re not otherwise ideal. That and/or Dorukon would have done better if he stayed in the dungeon.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2021-07-01 at 12:55 AM.

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    Search the forums for all the “basic magic items any smart high level player surely must have”, make an exhaustive list, including custom items like death ward apparently, and I’m sure it will exceed PC WBL 20+ fold, let alone NPC WBL. And yeah that’s epic WBL or it’d be 500+ fold. Defensive items in particular are notoriously bad offenders. And I’m sure nobody in OotS is perfectly optimized either. But even if they were I doubt it would remotely resemble the defend-against-everything concept that keeps appearing. Unless made affordable by infinite loop, in which case there’s no plot left… and via the same method they can likely bypass any defense too. Instead usually the winner has a good attack plan and limited defenses that aren’t so narrow.
    Magikeeper posted such a list earlier in this thread. I agree getting immunity to every conceivable thing would be very expensive, and any real player would have to cut out some of it. I can't speak for all players out there, but if I were making an affordable and conducive-to-actual-play list of items, defenses against death effects and mind control would be pretty big priorities.

    Another question I thought of that probably has no answer and doesn't matter: do the Scribblers have NPC wealth or PC wealth? They were an adventuring party back in the day.

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    So to focus on some of the replies I've seen:
    2) I think some people on here misunderstand how energy drain works. There's basically no way the first energy drain could have taken his teleport spells, and if Dorukan didn't prepare any other teleport spells are we to be satisfied with that explanation? Sorcerer trumps the Wizard class because the Wizard teleports out to fight without any way of getting back? The moral I'd take from that would be "if the wizard acts like an idiot and engages in suicidal behavior, sorcerer is the better class", because look at all the things that need to go right for the sorcerer to win:
    - The Wizard needs to not prepare using scrying, etc
    - The Wizard needs to not protect from negative energy even though this is easy and goes hand in hand with lichs
    - The Wizard needs to teleport out to fight you with the wrong spells, and teleports left to bail
    - The Wizard needs to fight foolishly
    - The Wizard needs to stand there like a dummy while you get 5 spells to 1 of his own.
    To me the takeaway would be the sorcerer is the fool, who was bailed by plot armour, not that Wizards are arrogantly overlooking something by underestimating the sorcerer. If you're a moron you're a moron, no matter what class you have.
    You seem intent on reading more into this fight's purpose than was remotely present. This fight isn't about whether a sorcerer can beat a wizard or which class is better. It's about a sorcerer beating a wizard, using brute force and style. The only part making it not a formality (because we already know Dorukan will lose and the real drama happens below) is that it encapsulates Xykon's personal philosophy, such as it is. The author clearly doesn't care about the comparative virtues of sorcerers and wizards nearly as much as the people demanding exhaustive evidence as to how a wizard could possibly lose.
    Last edited by Morty; 2021-07-01 at 06:28 AM.
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    @ericgrau: You don't need custom items for Death Ward. Book of Exalted Deeds has the Soulfire armor ability, and Dragon 342 has the Ring of Death Ward.

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Just a rules question, I'm taking a stab at staying out Dorukan and the SRD isn't clear; do Enervation and Energy Drain knock out one spell slot per negative level, or per casting?
    Also, what spells does Dorukan cast in the SOS fight? I remember a Gate and Prismatic Spray, but not others.
    The hypothesis is this; when Dorukan popped out of his castle, he was buffed to the nines with as much ARCANE magic as he could muster, which wiped out his lower levels. He assumed he could steamroller Xykon with the high level spells. By the time of the Energy Drain spam, he was running low on spell slots and Energy Drain (something an arcane caster can't cast without burning XP) knocked out his remaining spell slots and escape plan.

    From what I understand, epic wizards don't get extra regular spell slots after 20th. If his epic spells were Pure Heart Ward, Rift Seal and Cloister, that doesn't give him any offensive epic spells. With a 24 INT (being very generous) he'd get 4/6/6/6/5/5/5/5/4/4 spells per day. That's not that much if you start piling on buffs, and bear in mind the fight went on a while (wizards talk a big game but generally only work five minutes a day).

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    If those items exist in the campaign setting, and if they are available in such quantity that someone who owns one happens to live near enough for the buyer to know about it, and if the seller happens to have two and is willing to part with one.

    The art of strategy is not about dreaming up the ultimate attack/defense. It is about making the most of what you have in a situation. In the situation Dorukan may not have had any spells that would make a difference after his initial attack failed.

    Dorukan: Dancing Lights
    Xykon: Dude! Really? Why? Oh, and Energy Drain.
    Dorukan: It was supposed to distract you.
    Xykon: Didn't work, dumbass. Oh, and Energy Drain again.

    Also: sorcerors do beat wizards in a fair fight. Extra spell slots make a bigger difference than versatility in a duel. That's why when I play an arcane caster I always get the party stealth specialist to build as a mage-killer. It's really hard to lose a duel when all you have to do is counterspell until the enemy gets a Magic Weapon-buffed shortsword in the kidney.

  29. - Top - End - #119
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    @ericgrau: You don't need custom items for Death Ward. Book of Exalted Deeds has the Soulfire armor ability, and Dragon 342 has the Ring of Death Ward.
    +4 armor enchantment or 60,000 gp item that are both slotted kinda makes my point for me. There are 10,000 threads like this talking about at least 30 different if not 300 absolute “must have” defenses that should be “near the top of everyone’s list”. Most costing in the 10’s of k’s.

    Really Dorukan’s most realistic defense was his dungeon which he sacrificed in a rash action. And once you’re toe to toe it’s more about who hits hardest and who hits first than what you’re immune to. You can afford some minor defenses that boost your odds 20% or 30% here and there. 95% of individual immunities are too niche as above unless you get a package deal via race, template or some such. Even then the attacker may switch attacks, often at little or no cost.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2021-07-01 at 08:18 AM.

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    Just a rules question, I'm taking a stab at staying out Dorukan and the SRD isn't clear; do Enervation and Energy Drain knock out one spell slot per negative level, or per casting?
    One spell slot per negative level, starting from the highest unused. It's pretty vicious.

    Also, what spells does Dorukan cast in the SOS fight? I remember a Gate and Prismatic Spray, but not others.
    Not many spells are shown, and most of them are not named.

    After Dorukan teleports in, he knocks Xykon down with an unidentified spell. Once they're dueling in the air, he starts with Prismatic Spray, follows up with an unidentifed blast of flame, and then uses an unnamed spell that is probably Meteor Swarm (it looks basically identical to Xykon's); after that it's Gate. They're next shown with clashing dweomers (similar to Darth V facing off against Xykon in 653); Dorukan then uses another unnamed blast of flame, and then that's the end of him.

    By the time of the Energy Drain spam, he was running low on spell slots and Energy Drain (something an arcane caster can't cast without burning XP) knocked out his remaining spell slots and escape plan.
    Emphasis mine - I don't think that's correct? The only listed components for Energy Drain are Verbal and Somatic.

    With a 24 INT (being very generous) he'd get 4/6/6/6/5/5/5/5/4/4 spells per day. That's not that much if you start piling on buffs, and bear in mind the fight went on a while (wizards talk a big game but generally only work five minutes a day).
    We don't know for a fact that Dorukan was a specialist but realistically he's probably is; generalist wizards are ultra rare and Dorukan does have a bunch of abjuration associations (Cloister, the ward on his gate, etc.) - so there are reasonable odds for him to have one more spell per level for everything there.

    Broadly speaking, though, I think your assessment is good!
    Last edited by Gurgeh; 2021-07-01 at 08:23 AM.

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