A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    How? Dorukan wasn't able to tell what happened with Lirian, by his own admission, so there's no reason to think he absolutely knew about everything else.
    He didn't know what happened to her soul. He did know she was killed, and it would have been reasonable to guess that the lich with an army that showed up to attack the gate was involved.

  2. - Top - End - #212
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    I still haven't read SoD so I can't say for sure, but didn't Xykon taunt Dorukan with the zombie he turned Lirian's body into? If he disintegrated or otherwise destroyed it then given the general inaccessibility of true resurrection that would put her beyond raising even if her soul was rescued. That would probably light a fire under his backside prep or no.

  3. - Top - End - #213
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    I still haven't read SoD so I can't say for sure, but didn't Xykon taunt Dorukan with the zombie he turned Lirian's body into? If he disintegrated or otherwise destroyed it then given the general inaccessibility of true resurrection that would put her beyond raising even if her soul was rescued. That would probably light a fire under his backside prep or no.
    Oh, yeah, I forgot that Xykon was threatening to have Lirian eaten (or, well, her corpse.) He might not have a lot of good options in that case.
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  4. - Top - End - #214
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    I still haven't read SoD so I can't say for sure, but didn't Xykon taunt Dorukan with the zombie he turned Lirian's body into? If he disintegrated or otherwise destroyed it then given the general inaccessibility of true resurrection that would put her beyond raising even if her soul was rescued. That would probably light a fire under his backside prep or no.
    This is correct and indeed the entire reason Dorukan even came out to fight. More specifically, he threatened to have a zombie ogre (or just an ogre? I forget) eat that body right in front of Lirian's soul, trapped in a soul gem. "Xykon lured Dorukan out to fight by targeting his emotional weak spot and destroyed him in a confrontation he was more equipped for" is a more convincing explanation to me than the minutiae of D&D rules and balance.
    Last edited by Morty; 2021-07-28 at 02:35 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #215
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    This is correct and indeed the entire reason Dorukan even came out to fight. More specifically, he threatened to have a zombie ogre (or just an ogre? I forget) eat that body right in front of Lirian's soul, trapped in a soul gem. "Xykon lured Dorukan out to fight by targeting his emotional weak spot and destroyed him in a confrontation he was more equipped for" is a more convincing explanation to me than the minutiae of D&D rules and balance.
    Forcing Lirian to watch her own body be consumed would be unpleasant but not catastrophic- the problem is that once her body is consumed she'd be beyond raise dead or resurrection spells. That doesn't rely on pressing Dorukan's emotional buttons in the sense of prompting a spur-of-the-moment rage, it just relies on him being willing to risk his own life (and/or the Gate) in order to save Lirian within a short time-window. That's a lot easier to believe.
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  6. - Top - End - #216
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    According to Dorukan he wasn't bothered by the idea of Lirian watching her body get eaten, and only came out because he finally knew where her soul was. That was probably a lie, but it does imply that he had a way to resurrect her if her body was destroyed.

  7. - Top - End - #217
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by hungrycrow View Post
    According to Dorukan he wasn't bothered by the idea of Lirian watching her body get eaten, and only came out because he finally knew where her soul was. That was probably a lie, but it does imply that he had a way to resurrect her if her body was destroyed.
    Yes, you're right. I'm away from my copy of Start of Darkness at the moment. Either way - Dorukan stepped out to meet Xykon head-on without being prepared for it.
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  8. - Top - End - #218
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    Yes, you're right. I'm away from my copy of Start of Darkness at the moment. Either way - Dorukan stepped out to meet Xykon head-on without being prepared for it.
    Well it meant he started the fight without pre-buffing. He does say that he's been preparing for this for 6 months, so I doubt he'd been prepping noncombat spells the whole time.

  9. - Top - End - #219
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Dorukan 'not expecting to get into a serious' fight is just another way of phrasing 'Dorukan is being handed the idiot ball', since there was nothing to stop him waiting 24 hours to maximise his odds of victory against Xykon.
    Sure there was - impulsiveness and the belief that he was already prepared. Wizards are not min/max machines. They can have personality traits and flaws. There may be nothing from stopping you or me, in a game, where we do not have a deep personal connection to an NPC, but Dorukan was a character in a story who spent most of his life in love with another person and suddenly had the missing piece of the puzzle unlocked as to why she could not be rezzed and he impulsively and emotionally jumped at that (and, again, already believed he was ready).

    ETA: dang whole extra page I should have read before replying....
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-07-28 at 04:41 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #220
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by hungrycrow View Post
    Dorukan knew that Xykon was a threat to the gate. Sure he could have assumed that his defenses would hold, but just doing nothing while an enemy probes your defenses forever is just dumb. If Xykon isn't leaving after a few months, he's not going to leave until he takes some licks. And if Dorukan does nothing, that at best means Xykon charges through the defenses and kills some underlings.
    Specifically that?

    I don't know all that much about the nature of the Dungeon of Dorukan before Xykon, but I understood it to be, well, a dungeon: a sort of stereotypical adventuring location. It's the dungeon's job to keep the treasures safe and the mad mage at the bottom unbothered, not the other way around.

    Was there anything to distinguish Xykon from the typical adventurer that would command the boss of the dungeon to intervene preemptively?

    Also, Dorukan was monitoring the other gates and kept in contact with Lirian. He should know that Xykon killed her and isn't an inconsequential nuisance.
    I had always got the impression Dorukan was acting rather immediately upon learning of the trapping of her soul?

  11. - Top - End - #221
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Yeah, it seems Dorukan was planning on waiting Xykon out. Sound stragey, especially since, from what we know, he appears to be an Abjuration specialist, so turtling is a good idea for him. But Xykon managed to find what he cared about, namely, Lirian. By threating her, he got Dorukan to come out without pre-buffing.

  12. - Top - End - #222
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    I think it's important to focus on what actually happened in the fight, so I will outline the sequence. I can't link the page due to copyright, but if you google dorukan xykon I am sure you will find it.

    Sequence:
    - Xykon casts energy drain
    - Xykon casts another energy drain
    - Dorukan fires an unnamed spell that doesn't seem to do anything
    - Xykon casts another energy drain (the energy drain somehow dispels Dorukan's fly spell, which isn't how energy drain works, and then Dorukan crashes to the ground which isn't how fly being dispelled works).
    - Xykon casts yet another energy drain
    - Xykon casts a final energy drain

    So Xykon gets 5 spells to 1. Dorukan literally does nothing to respond with his rounds. That is not what I call plausible, it is the definition of implausible.

    By the admission of other posters above, Dorukan knew Lirian was dead, didn't care about her corpse being eaten, and had prepared... he also knows Lirian is dead & her gate destroyed, and gee a Lich with an army is besieging me … I wonder if the 2 are connected somehow. We also have Xykon himself tell us "oh he's busy buffing himself" while he wastes time doing stuff like fighting the angels, etc. Dorukan had plenty of time to buff even with his rashness; and even suboptimal spells should be sufficient to at least escape, never mind that when you are protected from scrying for 6 months while you can scry on the other guy you should have at least done some prep.

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    I think it's important to focus on what actually happened in the fight, so I will outline the sequence. I can't link the page due to copyright, but if you google dorukan xykon I am sure you will find it.

    Sequence:
    - Xykon casts energy drain
    - Xykon casts another energy drain
    - Dorukan fires an unnamed spell that doesn't seem to do anything
    - Xykon casts another energy drain (the energy drain somehow dispels Dorukan's fly spell, which isn't how energy drain works, and then Dorukan crashes to the ground which isn't how fly being dispelled works).
    - Xykon casts yet another energy drain
    - Xykon casts a final energy drain

    So Xykon gets 5 spells to 1. Dorukan literally does nothing to respond with his rounds. That is not what I call plausible, it is the definition of implausible.

    By the admission of other posters above, Dorukan knew Lirian was dead, didn't care about her corpse being eaten, and had prepared... he also knows Lirian is dead & her gate destroyed, and gee a Lich with an army is besieging me … I wonder if the 2 are connected somehow. We also have Xykon himself tell us "oh he's busy buffing himself" while he wastes time doing stuff like fighting the angels, etc. Dorukan had plenty of time to buff even with his rashness; and even suboptimal spells should be sufficient to at least escape, never mind that when you are protected from scrying for 6 months while you can scry on the other guy you should have at least done some prep.
    I believe everyone is fully aware of what happens on the pages by now. What differs is our interpretation and reaction to those panels.
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  14. - Top - End - #224
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    I think it's important to focus on what actually happened in the fight, so I will outline the sequence. I can't link the page due to copyright, but if you google dorukan xykon I am sure you will find it.

    Sequence:
    - Xykon casts energy drain
    - Xykon casts another energy drain
    - Dorukan fires an unnamed spell that doesn't seem to do anything
    - Xykon casts another energy drain (the energy drain somehow dispels Dorukan's fly spell, which isn't how energy drain works, and then Dorukan crashes to the ground which isn't how fly being dispelled works).
    - Xykon casts yet another energy drain
    - Xykon casts a final energy drain

    So Xykon gets 5 spells to 1. Dorukan literally does nothing to respond with his rounds. That is not what I call plausible, it is the definition of implausible.

    By the admission of other posters above, Dorukan knew Lirian was dead, didn't care about her corpse being eaten, and had prepared... he also knows Lirian is dead & her gate destroyed, and gee a Lich with an army is besieging me … I wonder if the 2 are connected somehow. We also have Xykon himself tell us "oh he's busy buffing himself" while he wastes time doing stuff like fighting the angels, etc. Dorukan had plenty of time to buff even with his rashness; and even suboptimal spells should be sufficient to at least escape, never mind that when you are protected from scrying for 6 months while you can scry on the other guy you should have at least done some prep.
    I would guess, given this was near the end of the fight, that he had already used most of his spells, and, besides, energy drain would eat into his spell slots. Also, I don't know why you're seizing on the Fly spell detail so much. I mean, it doesn't really matter, right?

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would guess, given this was near the end of the fight, that he had already used most of his spells, and, besides, energy drain would eat into his spell slots. Also, I don't know why you're seizing on the Fly spell detail so much. I mean, it doesn't really matter, right?
    As an Epic level wizard Dorukan gets a crazy number of spells. Energy drain would do modest damage to the spell slots given how many Dorukan would have, and if Dorukan was somehow getting low on spells he should be running not charging at Xykon to fight him (which gets back to the implausible stuff I've been talking about). Like, if you're running out of spells; leave the fight. Plus if Xykon still has a minimum of six level 9 spells up his sleeve at this stage in the fight, after battling through a bunch of gated angels, why the heck is Dorukan out of spells?

    The energy drain dispelling the flight spell (and causing him to hit the ground) just highlights the rules are being totally ignored.

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    the rules are being totally ignored.
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    As an Epic level wizard Dorukan gets a crazy number of spells. Energy drain would do modest damage to the spell slots given how many Dorukan would have, and if Dorukan was somehow getting low on spells he should be running not charging at Xykon to fight him (which gets back to the implausible stuff I've been talking about). Like, if you're running out of spells; leave the fight. Plus if Xykon still has a minimum of six level 9 spells up his sleeve at this stage in the fight, after battling through a bunch of gated angels, why the heck is Dorukan out of spells?

    The energy drain dispelling the flight spell (and causing him to hit the ground) just highlights the rules are being totally ignored.
    If you don't mind me asking, what exactly is your endgame here? The author has publicly declared that he is going to ignore the rules as he sees fit to tell the story he wants to tell. Saying "the exact 3.5 rules are being ignored in the comic" is like saying "that Tarantino movie was really violent". Yes, that is an accurate assessment of the work. If you dislike it, hey, there's nothing wrong with that, your opinion cannot be wrong. But it really seems like you just want to read a different story than the one this author is telling.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-07-28 at 07:15 PM.
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  18. - Top - End - #228
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    If you don't mind me asking, what exactly is your endgame here? The author has publicly declared that he is going to ignore the rules as he sees fit to tell the story he wants to tell. Saying "the exact 3.5 rules are being ignored in the comic" is like saying "that Tarantino movie was really violent". Yes, that is an accurate assessment of the work. If you dislike it, hey, there's nothing wrong with that, your opinion cannot be wrong. But it really seems like you just want to read a different story than the one this author is telling.
    I feel like I've explained my position at length in this thread, and I have seen you reply to those posts so I know you've seen them. The comic is great for the most part, but this particular fight annoyed me and I have explained why. If you don't feel that way, that's your right too. The thread is going on and on because some people are trying to claim the fight was plausible, and I'm explaining why the evidence suggests otherwise. You can enjoy it, plausible or not. That's not for me to judge. The Giant has indeed indicated a looseness with the rules, and the Giant has also said other things about the rules that some of us remember too (and which I've mentioned in this thread).

  19. - Top - End - #229
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    I feel like I've explained my position at length in this thread, and I have seen you reply to those posts so I know you've seen them. The comic is great for the most part, but this particular fight annoyed me and I have explained why. If you don't feel that way, that's your right too. The thread is going on and on because some people are trying to claim the fight was plausible, and I'm explaining why the evidence suggests otherwise. You can enjoy it, plausible or not. That's not for me to judge. The Giant has indeed indicated a looseness with the rules, and the Giant has also said other things about the rules that some of us remember too (and which I've mentioned in this thread).
    I feel like the exact details don’t matter as much as you think, and that most of your suggestions would only serve to drag out a fight scene that was a foregone conclusion the instant we knew this was a prequel. Aldo, what the hell does that last sentence mean?

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I feel like the exact details don’t matter as much as you think, and that most of your suggestions would only serve to drag out a fight scene that was a foregone conclusion the instant we knew this was a prequel. Aldo, what the hell does that last sentence mean?
    The giant has talked about how they wish they had never built the story in the framework of D&D 3.5, because then the rules to some degree bind the story going forward. Of course the author has also said they will disregard the rules whenever it suits them, and if we want a rules based story we should look elsewhere. This is the balancing act the comic now deals with. It is obvious the comic to some degree uses the rules to its advantage, to provide a framework for the story/characters to move forward in, and the author (whether they like it or not) relies on that framework when it is useful to them. Just look at the most recent comic; a beholder utilizing D&D spells and tactics is fighting the characters with D&D rules acting as the framework for the fight.

    That is beneficial to the author lots of times too, it saves them time explaining things, etc. The flip side of that is when divergence from the rules breaks the suspension of disbelief of the comic. If V just cast fireball at a giant gold dragon and killed it, that would do it. For me, the Dorukan fight is unsatisfying for the reasons I have explained; because to some degree the Giant does write the comic within a D&D framework, and completely breaking it will invariably damage the framework the characters exist in, regardless of how the author feels (and the author has commented how he knows this, which is why he does stuff like write V being off panel etc so often so V doesn't damage the suspension of disbelief by not utilizing the abilities a 3.5 wizard like V has.

  21. - Top - End - #231
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    I feel like I've explained my position at length in this thread, and I have seen you reply to those posts so I know you've seen them. The comic is great for the most part, but this particular fight annoyed me and I have explained why. If you don't feel that way, that's your right too. The thread is going on and on because some people are trying to claim the fight was plausible, and I'm explaining why the evidence suggests otherwise. You can enjoy it, plausible or not. That's not for me to judge. The Giant has indeed indicated a looseness with the rules, and the Giant has also said other things about the rules that some of us remember too (and which I've mentioned in this thread).
    But it's objectively plausible. You specifically and repeatedly call it implausible because of how it does not fit with exact, moment-by-moment D&D rules. You've rested your entire case on that, which means that when the author openly states that the comic will not run on exact, moment-to-moment D&D rules, that is no longer an issue. For example, it is normally not plausible to have a several-thousand-kilogram lizard fly, or a woman shoot fire from her hands, but if a setting says "well in this world they can," then it is plausible within the framework of that world. In Stickworld, strict 3.5 rules accuracy is not adhered to, so that fight is perfectly plausible just as a dragon or a sorcerer casting Fireball is plausible.

    Again, you don't like it, and that's fine. But it's not going to change, it's not going to get better for your tastes, and again, I don't see your endgame here.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-07-28 at 09:00 PM.
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    But it's objectively plausible. You specifically and repeatedly call it implausible because of how it does not fit with exact, moment-by-moment D&D rules. You've rested your entire case on that, which means that when the author openly states that the comic will not run on exact, moment-to-moment D&D rules, that is no longer an issue. For example, it is normally not plausible to have a several-thousand-kilogram lizard fly, or a woman shoot fire from her hands, but if a setting says "well in this world they can," then it is plausible within the framework of that world. In Stickworld, strict 3.5 rules accuracy is not adhered to, so that fight is perfectly plausible just as a dragon or a sorcerer casting Fireball is plausible.

    Again, you don't like it, and that's fine. But it's not going to change, it's not going to get better for your tastes, and again, I don't see your endgame here.
    The author can make anything possible for their world. I submit to you that if in the final fight V struts to the front and says "I got this guys", then hits Xykon with a single fireball or lightning bolt and kills him, many on here would be dissatisfied (and not just because it's anticlimactic or bad story). The author might say "Geeze, V was putting a lot of extra power into that fireball because I said so, and I guess Xykon forgot their fire immunity item" or "the lightning bolt that hit Xykon was special and it could hurt Xykon because I said so, happy rules nerds?" I doubt those explanations would make most people happy though, because the OOTS world has a framework it operates in, and when you shatter that framework you run into suspension of disbelief issues.

    This is a discussion forum. In it we can discuss the things we like and dislike about the comic. I don't need "a point" beyond that. I am explaining how I feel and why. I suspect I am not alone in being annoyed by it, but if I am it doesn't change my feelings. For the most part I am very positive about the story. This is one instance where I am not.
    Last edited by TooSoon; 2021-07-28 at 09:16 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #233
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    The author can make anything possible for their world. I submit to you that if in the final fight V struts to the front and says "I got this guys", then hits Xykon with a single fireball or lightning bolt and kills him, many on here would be dissatisfied (and not just because it's anticlimactic or bad story). The author might say "Geeze, V was putting a lot of extra power into that fireball because I said so, and I guess Xykon forgot their fire immunity item" or "the lightning bolt that hit Xykon was special and it could hurt Xykon because I said so, happy rules nerds?" I doubt those explanations would make most people happy though, because the OOTS world has a framework it operates in, and when you shatter that framework you run into suspension of disbelief issues.
    If the author specifically said," it's possible to put extra firepower into magic spells whenever, and forgetting immunity means you're no longer immune, and expecting otherwise will frustrate you," then i would hardly be surprised to find myself frustrated when that happened if I expected otherwise.
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  24. - Top - End - #234
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    The author can make anything possible for their world. I submit to you that if in the final fight V struts to the front and says "I got this guys", then hits Xykon with a single fireball or lightning bolt and kills him, many on here would be dissatisfied (and not just because it's anticlimactic or bad story). The author might say "Geeze, V was putting a lot of extra power into that fireball because I said so, and I guess Xykon forgot their fire immunity item" or "the lightning bolt that hit Xykon was special and it could hurt Xykon because I said so, happy rules nerds?" I doubt those explanations would make most people happy though, because the OOTS world has a framework it operates in, and when you shatter that framework you run into suspension of disbelief issues.
    In more than a decade since Start of Darkness came out, no such thing happened. Despite the connection to D&D rules growing increasingly tenuous. That would be because the Giant actually understands the dramatic significance of fights and character deaths pretty well. Which includes the difference between this absurd caricature of a scenario and one in which a character we already knew would die was overpowered by the main villain while illustrating said main villain's driving philosophy.
    Last edited by Morty; 2021-07-29 at 03:51 AM.
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  25. - Top - End - #235
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    • Dorukan has just found out that Xykon has Lirian's soul, right there in front of him and jumps in immediately to not miss this chance to rescue the months-missing love of his life, jumping into a battle he's been anticipating for a long time but likely wasnt actually specifically ready for that morning.
    • They do some good old fashioned Wizard Duelling on and off camera for a while
    • The actually important confrontation and emotional climax of the book happens meanwhile between reddie and righty somewhere below
    • We get to the controversial scene where Xykon crushes Dorukan with spammed Energy Drain with Dorukan basically unable to meaningfully fight back, before being defeated and killed. It seems that Xykon's superiority has met with some controversy. This page doesn't obey D&D 3.5 (or 3.0) edition rules for the end of a caster duel (or the Fly spell for that matter).
    • Dorukans soul gets captured, Xykon regroups with redcloak and crushes him too by revealing that he was never in any danger and redcloak killed his own brother for nothing



    Personally I dont think it matters at all that the rules werent followed for the final finisher of the duel with dorukan, because we're only being shown for a) ooo dramatic moment and b) Showing off Xykon's willingness to just plow straight over people who underestimate him with brute strength. Dorukan isn't the final showdown of this book about Redcloak, after all.



    (Also Energy Drain can lose you up to 8 levels per hit with hot rolling, Dorukan could genuinely have lost his sixteen highest level remaining spells by the second Energy Drain, which would be pretty brutal for a fresh and prepared caster let alone one who's already been rolling out the heavy hitters for an extended duel while his opponent simply saves his 9th slots so again, short of "teleport" I really dont think there's a single spell big D could have cast that would save him. Obviously that kind of rolling is pretty unlikely but hey, even average ten is pretty brutal. Not saying I think the rules actually bear that scene out, just that the barrage of spells X uses are about as debilitating as I'd expect from the narrative results)
    Quote Originally Posted by ActionReplay View Post
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    There is a lot of very bizarre nonsense being talked on this forum. I shall now remain silent and logoff until my points are vindicated.

  26. - Top - End - #236
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    ...But it really seems like you just want to read a different story than the one this author is telling.
    Any criticism of a story, by its nature, implies that the critic would like to read a story which was modified to not contain the flaw/s the critic has perceived as warranting attention. You cannot improve something without making it different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    In more than a decade since Start of Darkness came out, no such thing happened.
    Well, your mileage may vary.

    I mean, my main disagreement with TooSoon is that these kinds of problems are actually far more pervasive and fundamental than just the fight between Xykon and Dorukan (at least some of which can be excused by Xykon putting Dorukan under severe time pressure.) Huge load-bearing segments of the larger storyline just implode as soon as you start demanding basic non-suicidal competence on the part of primary agonists and that consistent rules be followed.

    .
    Last edited by Lacuna Caster; 2021-07-29 at 04:55 AM.
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  27. - Top - End - #237
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Elemental View Post
    [LIST]

    (Also Energy Drain can lose you up to 8 levels per hit with hot rolling, Dorukan could genuinely have lost his sixteen highest level remaining spells by the second Energy Drain, which would be pretty brutal for a fresh and prepared caster let alone one who's already been rolling out the heavy hitters for an extended duel while his opponent simply saves his 9th slots so again, short of "teleport" I really dont think there's a single spell big D could have cast that would save him. Obviously that kind of rolling is pretty unlikely but hey, even average ten is pretty brutal. Not saying I think the rules actually bear that scene out, just that the barrage of spells X uses are about as debilitating as I'd expect from the narrative results)
    Assuming Xykon got lucky on the Energy Drain rolls is a 2 edged sword, because the more spells he takes, the higher Dorukan has to be and still be alive. Dorukan took 5 energy drains to kill. If Xykon had perfect rolls for his first 4 energy drains then Dorukan would have been a minimum of level 33. In reality Dorukan was "low epic" according to the author, so the number of spells he lost is tempered by that fact. If Dorukan was level 21 for instance, the most Dorukan could have lost in the first 4 energy drain was 20 spell slots in order for Dorukan to still be alive. Given Dorukan is an Epic spellcaster, a specialist and would have at least run of the mill bonuses by that point, etc, 20 spell slots isn't much of an inconvenience. Ok, it'll take away a lot of useful spells, but teleport is a 5th level spell and it's not going to hit 5th level spells (and if Xykon has rolled high the first 3 drains, why is Dorukan not teleporting away or something before the 4th and 5th?).

  28. - Top - End - #238
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    Assuming Xykon got lucky on the Energy Drain rolls is a 2 edged sword, because the more spells he takes, the higher Dorukan has to be and still be alive. Dorukan took 5 energy drains to kill. If Xykon had perfect rolls for his first 4 energy drains then Dorukan would have been a minimum of level 33. In reality Dorukan was "low epic" according to the author, so the number of spells he lost is tempered by that fact. If Dorukan was level 21 for instance, the most Dorukan could have lost in the first 4 energy drain was 20 spell slots in order for Dorukan to still be alive. Given Dorukan is an Epic spellcaster, a specialist and would have at least run of the mill bonuses by that point, etc, 20 spell slots isn't much of an inconvenience. Ok, it'll take away a lot of useful spells, but teleport is a 5th level spell and it's not going to hit 5th level spells (and if Xykon has rolled high the first 3 drains, why is Dorukan not teleporting away or something before the 4th and 5th?).
    If Dorukan teleports away, Xykon tells his ogre minion to finish eating Lirian and then Lirian becomes impossible to resurrect (unless Dorukan knows a 17th-level cleric, at least.) He may not have the option of retreating without losing the woman he loves.
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  29. - Top - End - #239
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    If Dorukan teleports away, Xykon tells his ogre minion to finish eating Lirian and then Lirian becomes impossible to resurrect (unless Dorukan knows a 17th-level cleric, at least.) He may not have the option of retreating without losing the woman he loves.
    If Dorukan dies he can't resurrect her either. Plus all he needs is a drop of her blood, which he can locate with magic. Let's also not make the assumption he has no means for a true resurrection. These guys were epic level adventurers, he may well have the means indirectly or directly to do so; why do you think he was searching for Lirian's soul even without having her body? He tells us himself he doesn't care about her unlife body, but about getting her soul... and why do you think Xykon soul binds these sorts of people? Precisely to stop them getting revived by high level people they might know. Heck, Dorukan could use other means like Wish to revive her himself.
    Last edited by TooSoon; 2021-07-29 at 05:46 AM.

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    If Dorukan dies he can't resurrect her either. Plus all he needs is a drop of her blood, which he can locate with magic. Let's also not make the assumption he has no means for a true resurrection. These guys were epic level adventurers, he may well have the means indirectly or directly to do so; why do you think he was searching for Lirian's soul even without having her body? He tells us himself he doesn't care about her unlife body, but about getting her soul... and why do you think Xykon soul binds these sorts of people? Precisely to stop them getting revived by high level people they might know. Heck, Dorukan could use other means like Wish to revive her himself.
    Actually, that's a good point. I was going to say that Wish only allows level-8 or lower spells to be reliably replicated, and lower if it's outside your specialty, but there is a specific clause allowing for the dead to be revived even if their body was destroyed.

    Yeah, okay, there's no excuse then. Dorukan just got beat upside the head with the idiot ball.
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