A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Pretty certain "getting handed the idiot ball" is an well-known alias for falling in love. If you can't believe a guy will do dumb stuff for the woman he loves (also applies to other gender identities and sexual preferences equally, of course) then I don't know what to tell you. Seems pretty plausible to me.
    Last edited by pearl jam; 2021-07-29 at 06:34 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #242
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Can't we all just agree that the Xykon vs Dorukan fight didn't follow strict RAW but that it made perfect dramatic sense, which is what The Giant was going for, and leave it at that. It was a cutscene, not gameplay. Also, dispelled Fly spells just consistently work like that in OotS, so sure, it's not RAW, but it's a well-established house rule so I don't think objecting to it makes a lot of sense. Internal consistency was maintained there.
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  3. - Top - End - #243
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by hroțila View Post
    Can't we all just agree that the Xykon vs Dorukan fight didn't follow strict RAW but that it made perfect dramatic sense, which is what The Giant was going for, and leave it at that. It was a cutscene, not gameplay. Also, dispelled Fly spells just consistently work like that in OotS, so sure, it's not RAW, but it's a well-established house rule so I don't think objecting to it makes a lot of sense. Internal consistency was maintained there.
    That's more or less what it comes down to, but it seems TooSoon is invested enough in the combat performance of a minor character that it's not an acceptable answer.
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  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by TooSoon View Post
    If Dorukan dies he can't resurrect her either. Plus all he needs is a drop of her blood, which he can locate with magic. Let's also not make the assumption he has no means for a true resurrection. These guys were epic level adventurers, he may well have the means indirectly or directly to do so; why do you think he was searching for Lirian's soul even without having her body? He tells us himself he doesn't care about her unlife body, but about getting her soul... and why do you think Xykon soul binds these sorts of people? Precisely to stop them getting revived by high level people they might know. Heck, Dorukan could use other means like Wish to revive her himself.

    The author has more or less blatantly stated that True Resurrection does not exist in the OotS setting, as he finds it a narratively unsatisfying spell. I would not be surprised if the same applied to Wish and Limited Wish. In other words, if Dorukan loses Lirian's body, she's gone for good.

    Sure "if Dorukan dies he can't resurrect her either", but it's evidently a risk he was willing to take. If Dorukan hightails it away, he is guaranteed to lose Lirian. If he grits his teeth and risks his life sticking it out, there is a possibility he can save Lirian-- a possibility that we the audience know was doomed from the start, but Dorukan doesn't.

    This also assumes that Dorukan did not find ways to protect his tower/dungeon against teleportation, which would be one of the first things you'd want to do if you're trying to ward a place against high level casters (right after protecting it from scrying effects). In which case it may very well be reasonable that Dorukan didn't prepare multiple castings of teleport if his dungeons' own defenses mean teleporting is a one-way trip no matter what.
    Last edited by Chijinda; 2021-07-29 at 08:06 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Technically Rich said that True Rez/Wish/Miracle do exist; they just aren't going to play a part in the plot. Not that it changes much, of course.
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  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Elemental View Post
    They do some good old fashioned Wizard Duelling on and off camera for a while
    Really?!?! The critics were making it sound like the energy drains were the entire fight, rather than the concluding moments of an extended fight where Xykon hammered relentlessly at an opening.
    Last edited by Hurkyl; 2021-07-29 at 09:02 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #247
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Chijinda View Post
    This also assumes that Dorukan did not find ways to protect his tower/dungeon against teleportation, which would be one of the first things you'd want to do if you're trying to ward a place against high level casters (right after protecting it from scrying effects). In which case it may very well be reasonable that Dorukan didn't prepare multiple castings of teleport if his dungeons' own defenses mean teleporting is a one-way trip no matter what.
    And in fact, Dorukan did protect his tower from teleportation.

    Anyway. The result of the fight is a foregone conclusion; the exact details are irrelevant and it adds nothing to have Xykon's speech interrupted by Dorukan casting ever more feeble spells. What Dorukan does is not the point of the scene.
    Last edited by Yendor; 2021-07-29 at 09:12 AM.
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  8. - Top - End - #248
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Chijinda View Post
    This also assumes that Dorukan did not find ways to protect his tower/dungeon against teleportation, which would be one of the first things you'd want to do if you're trying to ward a place against high level casters (right after protecting it from scrying effects). In which case it may very well be reasonable that Dorukan didn't prepare multiple castings of teleport if his dungeons' own defenses mean teleporting is a one-way trip no matter what.
    Oh, he did, it was called Cloister. He'd have to have researched some kind of epic teleport spell to get past his own protections. The RAW is not clear on whether energy drain will tank epic spell slots and when, as far as I know.

  9. - Top - End - #249
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Oh, he did, it was called Cloister. He'd have to have researched some kind of epic teleport spell to get past his own protections.
    Unless he slipped in a backdoor.

    Edit: This hardly matters, mind you, since cloister allows people to freely teleport within its area of effect.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2021-07-29 at 11:09 AM.

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    The summoning version of Gate doesn’t last too long, so I assume it wouldn’t have worked in the Cloister for the purposes of escape even if he had enough slots left by then.

    Also nobody really prepares Teleport once you have the Greater version.
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  11. - Top - End - #251
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Can we agree that Dorukan was BOTH colossally dumb and blinded by her love? Seems like the most likely answer, judging by his actions.
    Last edited by Precure; 2021-07-29 at 12:09 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #252
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Technically Rich said that True Rez/Wish/Miracle do exist; they just aren't going to play a part in the plot. Not that it changes much, of course.
    Dorukan doesn't know this though. From his point of view her body isn't that important, and he tells us as much, because he is confident he can bring her back with magic with or without it; hence him searching for her soul for years after her body would have rotted away and her Gate had been destroyed.

  13. - Top - End - #253
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurkyl View Post
    Really?!?! The critics were making it sound like the energy drains were the entire fight, rather than the concluding moments of an extended fight where Xykon hammered relentlessly at an opening.
    Here, I'll give you a play-by-play. As others have said, the Redcloak stuff is the heart of the scene, so I won't be describing that, if you're curious, buy the book.

    Spoiler: Caster fight!
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    p98: Xykon detects Dorukan scrying on him through an unknown spell. Dorukan uses sending to talk to the lich.
    p99: Dorukan appears next to Xykon thanks to an unknown spell and fires a blast of energy at Xykon. Xykon says "Let's fight."
    p99-101: Redcloak and MitD stuff.
    p102: X and D are in flight, D casts Prismatic Spray which hits X but does nothing because of the black-and-white artwork. D casts an unnamed lightning spell at the same time as X casting another spell (counterspell?). D claims to have prepared for this fight ever since X arrived on his doorstep. D casts an unnamed flame spell which X dodges. D casts an unamed spell that looks similar to Xykon's beloved Meteor Swarm that hits and makes X cry out in pain. D casts Gate, summoning a dozen angel-looking fellas.
    p103: Redcloak stuff.
    p104: More Redcloak stuff, X is visible in the background fighting off the angels. D is out of sight.
    p105: More Redcloak stuff, X kills the last four angels with a Meteor Swarm. He has several visible damage markers and reflects that fighting the angels gave D (who isn't shown in the page) time to cast defensive spells. X declares fun time over and decides to get serious.
    p106: D and X cast at the same time in a manner similar to V casting counterspell. X casts Energy Drain making D drop his staff. X talks and casts Energy Drain again. D, who shows some damage marks casts an unnamed flame spell that X doesn't reacts to. X casts Energy Drain again, increasing the damage marks. X casts Energy Drain again making D crash into the ground. X casts Energy Drain again turning D's skin black and killing him (D had managed to stand up off-panel).
    p107: Redcloaks heals X's injuries with an unnamed spell. X says the fight was really close and "a Sneak Attack either way could have tipped the balance." It is unclear how genuine that comment is, as in context it seems purposefully crafted to hurt Redcloak's feeling.


    So, was the fighting unfair? I dunno.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2021-07-29 at 03:03 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  14. - Top - End - #254
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Something not yet considered: the Dr. Strange plan.

    Dorukon had a TeeVo. He could watch what was on, or he could watch what already aired.

    But a seldom (effectively) used ability of scrying devices is the ability to view upcoming episodes before they air.

    Like Dr. Strange, Dorukon may have scryed the many possible futures and determined that the one that his side wins is the one in which he dies.

    And besides, is being locked into a soul-gem with your one true love forever really a loss?
    Last edited by brian 333; 2021-07-30 at 08:32 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #255
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    Something not yet considered: the Dr. Strange plan.

    Dorukon had a TeeVo. He could watch what was on, or he could watch what already aired.

    But a seldom (effectively) used ability of scrying devices is the ability to view upcoming episodes before they air.

    Like Dr. Strange, Dorukon may have scryed the many possible futures and determined that the one that his side wins is the one in which he dies.

    And besides, is being locked into a soul-gem with your one true love forever really a loss?
    Doctor Strange didn't even look into enough futures to have decent odds of winning the powerball.

    Assuming that he buys a ticket with a given number and just knows a binary "you won/did not win" result, and not getting the full number revealed, of course.
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  16. - Top - End - #256
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Dorukan: "What do I need to do for staying with my love forever?"

    The Oracle: "You need to be defeated by a lich called Xykon the Inconsequential.

  17. - Top - End - #257
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Doctor Strange didn't even look into enough futures to have decent odds of winning the powerball.

    Assuming that he buys a ticket with a given number and just knows a binary "you won/did not win" result, and not getting the full number revealed, of course.
    There are so many problems with how Dr. Strange didn't use the Time Stone properly, it's not really worth bringing them up. He's supposed to be a genius and yet could only see 1 future where they won?

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by WanderingMist View Post
    There are so many problems with how Dr. Strange didn't use the Time Stone properly, it's not really worth bringing them up. He's supposed to be a genius and yet could only see 1 future where they won?
    He saw the one with the biggest box office returns
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  19. - Top - End - #259
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by WanderingMist View Post
    There are so many problems with how Dr. Strange didn't use the Time Stone properly, it's not really worth bringing them up. He's supposed to be a genius and yet could only see 1 future where they won?
    Also he's the kind of person who texts and drives. He is clearly not responsible enough to have a reality-altering device.
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    Peelee's genius status confirmed
    Seconded.

  20. - Top - End - #260
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Didn't the directors say Thanos would have beaten the crap out of the Avengers even if they'd gotten the gauntlet off?
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  21. - Top - End - #261
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Didn't the directors say Thanos would have beaten the crap out of the Avengers even if they'd gotten the gauntlet off?
    They could have shot him. Star-Lord was right there with a gun.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  22. - Top - End - #262
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    They could have shot him. Star-Lord was right there with a gun.
    Yeah, like THAT would have done much.
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  23. - Top - End - #263
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Yeah, like THAT would have done much.
    Why not? He couldn't use the gauntlet to protect himself at the moment.

    Star-Lord hitting him in the face with that very same gun makes him yell in pain and throw his head back. Shooting him would have killed him (and hurt Mantis's hands, admittedly).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  24. - Top - End - #264
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Why not? He couldn't use the gauntlet to protect himself at the moment.

    Star-Lord hitting him in the face with that very same gun makes him yell in pain and throw his head back. Shooting him would have killed him (and hurt Mantis's hands, admittedly).
    Thanks survived using the Infinity Gauntlet, after getting the **** beat out of him by Thor, and, speaking of which, has taken hits from Thor, Hulk, and Iron Man, and shrugged them off. I doubt Starlord’s gun would have done much.

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    Thanks survived using the Infinity Gauntlet, after getting the **** beat out of him by Thor, and, speaking of which, has taken hits from Thor, Hulk, and Iron Man, and shrugged them off. I doubt Starlord’s gun would have done much.
    People surviving getting struck by lightning or fighting hand-to-hand does not make thel immune to bullets.

    Edit: And, again, in that very scene Star-Lord pistol-whipping him visibly hurts Thanos
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2021-07-31 at 11:39 AM.

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    Thanks survived using the Infinity Gauntlet, after getting the **** beat out of him by Thor, and, speaking of which, has taken hits from Thor, Hulk, and Iron Man, and shrugged them off. I doubt Starlord’s gun would have done much.
    It's almost like the movies are really inconsistent on how tough Thanos actually is.

    All the villains really. Minions too. There's only so much you can do to squash everything into group action scenes when the super powers range from "ability to manipulate the fabric of space and time" or "is the strongest thing in the universe" with "has a gun" or "was trained as an assassin."
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    We should try to make that a thing; I think it might help civility. Hey, GitP, let's try to make this a thing: when you're arguing optimization strategies, RAW-logic, and similar such things that you'd never actually use in a game, tag your post [THEORETICAL] and/or use green text

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    It's almost like the movies are really inconsistent on how tough Thanos actually is.

    All the villains really. Minions too. There's only so much you can do to squash everything into group action scenes when the super powers range from "ability to manipulate the fabric of space and time" or "is the strongest thing in the universe" with "has a gun" or "was trained as an assassin."
    In other words, and to quote Dragon Ball Z* Abridged: Power levels are bull****!

    *What does that Z even stand for, anyway?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  28. - Top - End - #268
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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    In other words, and to quote Dragon Ball Z* Abridged: Power levels are bull****!

    *What does that Z even stand for, anyway?
    Supposedly Zenkai, making it Dragonball, The Last Time.

    So that went well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    We should try to make that a thing; I think it might help civility. Hey, GitP, let's try to make this a thing: when you're arguing optimization strategies, RAW-logic, and similar such things that you'd never actually use in a game, tag your post [THEORETICAL] and/or use green text

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Hah!! Someone has brought up MCU comparisons! That's my foot in the door...

    As BaconElemental said, it's not that Dorukan hadn't been planning to fight Xykon for 6 months, he just wasn't planning that particular kind of fight, on exactly that morning. Dorukan was in a double bind; he had to be prepared to either defend a fixed position (his dungeon) against an invasion by a horde of goblinoid mooks should that be the big day, or take the battle to a single epic-level lich sorceror whose capabilities he may or my not know (despite TooSoon's insisting he should have scried out all of Xykon's powers by now, it also seems pretty elementary that Xykon would have been warding himself against that scrying, doesn't it?). IRL armies are faced all the time with fighting battles they weren't expecting. Gettysburg was fought between Union and Confederate armies that were both expecting a battle, just- not right there, and not that day.

    So precisely because he had to be ready to face anything, Dorukan was not ready for the one thing he did have to face; although he did give Xykon enough of a fight to get him seriously worried with his force of summoned celestials.

    My answer to TooSoon's issue with the final pages of the fight is simply this: there was an entire battle we didn't even see, where both sides shot off all kinds of spells, each one either tanking or no-selling the other's, until we rejoin the action.

    (Here comes my MCU reference.) In Age of Ultron, we see Ultron and Tony fly out of the freighter in the African salvage yard, both in top shape, blasting one another in a midair pursuit; then the scene cuts to the other Avengers. Next we see of Ultron, he's almost wrecked and crumpled against the side of a shipping container. He and Tony exchange taunts, and Tony blasts him. How did he get to be in such bad shape? It doesn't matter, because the important story events were happening to the other heroes at that point.

    Same case here. By the last pages of the Dorukan-Xykon match, Dorukan is on the ropes. Xykon hits him with an Energy Drain that takes almost all he has left. He casts a last-ditch spell, he's hit again, and that's it for him. Whether he's out of spells, or whether he just has no spells that will do anything to help him, is irrelevant. (And believe me, I've been a 20th level wizard and found that I had no spells that would help at the particular moment. That's why you have a party around you, and carry a crossbow.) Even Xykon's initial 2 spells for 1 has an explanation; Dorukan was scrabbling through his spells trying to come up with some way to dig himself out of his predicament. Time ran out on him. This is something that also happens in tabletop D&D: eventually the DM just declares that you're out of time to go over your spell list and the action moves on.

    There was certainly an awesome exchange of spells; but it was offscreen. The Giant has said as much, if I recall what I've read correctly. But again, if you're not satisfied with filling in the blanks and need it round-by-round, my headcanon explanation won't satisfy you either.
    Last edited by Darth Paul; 2021-07-31 at 03:49 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
    Namer Of MitD Threads
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    [furiously scribbles notes on how Darth Paul is the MitD]

  30. - Top - End - #270
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Why not? He couldn't use the gauntlet to protect himself at the moment.

    Star-Lord hitting him in the face with that very same gun makes him yell in pain and throw his head back. Shooting him would have killed him (and hurt Mantis's hands, admittedly).
    Mantis is still psychically linked to him; I'd always assumed he was reacting to her pain.

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