OOTS #1238 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

I'm late to the party and it was probably said already, but... wait, what? Rich is using WotC IP? Didn't he make jokes about patented material before? I'm a bit surprised to see a beholder?

I mean, we've seen one before. The joke involved a beholder on-screen.

[InvisibleBison]

Barring some new method, the only people who can hit the flying beholder at range are currently effectively blind due to the ambient darkness

Not so. And if Durkon's hammer really is a Hammer of Thunderbolts, it will still have its enchantments active, because antimagic fields can't suppress artifacts.

[Ron Miel]

I never thought I'd find a beholder adorable.

I take it you've never read YAFGC, then?


https://www.yafgc.net/comic/0359-bob-meet-bob/

[Quizatzhaderac]

I support the Serini and Oona are working together theory, but I doubt Redcloak would entrust Oona with any more information about the Plan than he's given Xykon. She's not particularly loyal to him or TDO, and is a bit too talkative to be told anything really sensitive.

I said Redcloak's story about the plan™, not the actual plan™.

I'm late to the party and it was probably said already, but... wait, what? Rich is using WotC IP? Didn't he make jokes about patented material before? I'm a bit surprised to see a beholder?

Psssshhhh!

That's not a beholder, that's an "eye-tyrant"! It has a moderately different number of eye-stalks. (I mean, could you mistake a squid with an octopus?) Also, note his 'sunny' disposition and lack of goldfish.

[TRH]

Why does someone say that EVERY TIME V gets in trouble? They said they can't/won't save V and indeed that if she dies all of this would be pointless, but they STILL Wouldn't do it.

Because they don't know what the IFCC wants to accomplish with the soul debts, they insist on bringing it up every time its use could be even vaguely rationalized, to compensate for them being rudderless in terms of actually figuring out where they're going with this.

[RatElemental]

Last time they used it to prevent V from stopping a gate from being destroyed. Serini's goal is to stop the order from initiating conflict with Xykon and destroying the gate, so I can sort of see the connection. But It's not like V taking a nap will help accomplish the destruction of the gate (if that is their goal) since they're deep in Serini's turf with no back up coming and aren't in any sort of position where their sudden absence might accomplish anything.

And then there's the fact that the IFCC are on the move for more direct action now involving a vessel and an artifact. I'm guessing they're going to end up calling in one of their debts to take V out of a fight they initiated at some point.

[TRH]

And I keep telling people they're thinking too small by assuming the next soul debt will involve exactly the same procedure and reasoning as the last one. "Your soul spends one hour with me" as opposed to "in the Lower Planes with me," combined with "We can only act directly on the mortal plane when we're making a deal" is a loophole the size of a tractor trailer, and I'll be outright disappointed if it goes unexploited.

That being said, speculating too much on the IFCC is fundamentally kind of uninteresting, because the role of Outsiders in the OOTS cosmology is really vague right now. We're given a really handwavy explanation for how they've persisted unchanged through the entire Snarl cycle, told once that the Blood War is still a thing, and that's about it. It's almost impossible to figure out their stake in the Gate fight because we don't know enough about their society and how it operates, not to mention how souls get apportioned between the Fiends and the Evil-aligned Gods. In terms of putting together clever and satisfying theories, there's just no there there.

[danielxcutter]

Not so. And if Durkon's hammer really is a Hammer of Thunderbolts, it will still have its enchantments active, because antimagic fields can't suppress artifacts.

No, most of its powers only work if worn with the gauntlets and belt. And oh wait, they’re suppressed in the AMF. Not to mention Durkon’s ranged attack bonus probably isn’t great and Serini’s invisible.

[TRH]

What do you mean "most of its powers" rely on having the other items? All those do is boost the +3 to +5, let two strength items stack and have a save or die effect on giants AIUI. It's still a +3 returning hammer regardless, and more importantly is still an artifact regardless.

[InvisibleBison]

No, most of its powers only work if worn with the gauntlets and belt. And oh wait, they’re suppressed in the AMF. Not to mention Durkon’s ranged attack bonus probably isn’t great and Serini’s invisible.

As has been said, the powers that are relevant here are active regardless of whether you have the gauntlets and the belt. But more importantly, Durkon is in fact wearing the gauntlets and the belt. The AMF doesn't make them stop being magic items, it just suppresses their effects. The hammer, which is unsuppressed, still registers that he's wearing them and so is fully functional. Or at least, that's how I'd rule it.

[Squire Doodad]

Psssshhhh!

That's not a beholder, that's an "eye-tyrant"! It has a moderately different number of eye-stalks. (I mean, could you mistake a squid with an octopus?) Also, note his 'sunny' disposition and lack of goldfish.

As everyone knows, a Burlewian Tyrant Eye can make a Magic Dampening Field with its eyes 3 times a day, and has a set of eyestalks that cast Stone to Flesh, Harm, and other very different abilities.

[TheNecrocomicon]

That would be here.

Okay, and he successfully cast the spell, he just couldn't undo the stat damage because it was beyond the reach of the spell's effects. It doesn't mean it was no help whatsoever.

Neutralize Poison does nothing about the damage poison has already done. It just stops the secondary damage from happening. Roy won't wake up if Elan casts Neutralize Poison. This is what happened the last time Elan cast it.

V can't cast Disjunction on the Antimagic Field because V doesn't know that spell. They aren't even high enough level to cast it. It's also not a sure thing (you have to roll a caster level check), and might not even work on a Beholder's Antimagic Field, because it's not the spell but a different ability.

Except in this case, the primary "damage" the poison is doing is putting its target to sleep. Neutralizing the poison should thus wake them up, or at least stop them from being forced to sleep and let someone wake them up by mundane means. It didn't appear that the poison inflicted any health or stat damage at all to O'Chul and Lien, it just overwhelmed their Fortitude saves and rendered them comatose.

As for Disjunction, V did use it before while under the Soul Splice against the ancient black dragon. They would recall how it works and they may well now have reached a level where they can learn and use it themselves, assuming it's not an epic-level spell (and it didn't appear to be, since the applicable spliced soul in question usually briefly appeared when casting an epic spell).

Not so. And if Durkon's hammer really is a Hammer of Thunderbolts, it will still have its enchantments active, because antimagic fields can't suppress artifacts.

Probably not completely suppressed, it would still inherently be an exceptionally strong warhammer. But its lightning powers, returning ability, etc. may well be subject to antimagic suppression (and I would expect that they would be).

No, most of its powers only work if worn with the gauntlets and belt. And oh wait, they’re suppressed in the AMF. Not to mention Durkon’s ranged attack bonus probably isn’t great and Serini’s invisible.

That's what I thought.

[Grey Watcher]

Trust Rich to make a Beholder adorable.

[Yuki Akuma]

Except in this case, the primary "damage" the poison is doing is putting its target to sleep. Neutralizing the poison should thus wake them up, or at least stop them from being forced to sleep and let someone wake them up by mundane means. It didn't appear that the poison inflicted any health or stat damage at all to O'Chul and Lien, it just overwhelmed their Fortitude saves and rendered them comatose.

No it... wouldn't? The unconsciousness caused by sleep poison doesn't work that way. It lasts for 1d4 hours, and nothing except a Restoration spell or equivalent can reverse it. I actually double checked and I'm wrong. Mea culpa. It does revert temporary effects.

Want to know how Neutralize Poison could be useful? Cast it on the darts. Or the vials of poison Serini is holding. (This is still true though.)

As for Disjunction, V did use it before while under the Soul Splice against the ancient black dragon. They would recall how it works and they may well now have reached a level where they can learn and use it themselves, assuming it's not an epic-level spell (and it didn't appear to be, since the applicable spliced soul in question usually briefly appeared when casting an epic spell).

It is a 9th level spell. V cannot cast 9th level spells. It's a big deal that Redcloak can, and Redcloak is explicitly more powerful. The highest level spell V has been shown to cast was 7th level, I believe.

[danielxcutter]

Actually, V can cast 8ths. But just because they had a splice who knew Disjunction doesn’t mean they can cast it now, and even if they’re capable of casting 9ths and chose that spell as one of their learned spells they still can’t cast it in an AMF.

[Yuki Akuma]

Actually, V can cast 8ths. But just because they had a splice who knew Disjunction doesn’t mean they can cast it now, and even if they’re capable of casting 9ths and chose that spell as one of their learned spells they still can’t cast it in an AMF.

Also, consider that if V was level 17 - and thus just barely able to cast Disjunction - they would have only an 18% chance for any Disjunction they cast to end an Antimagic Field. (It's 1% per caster level, and V has a +1 CL item.)

[danielxcutter]

Also, consider that if V was level 17 - and thus just barely able to cast Disjunction - they would have only an 18% chance for any Disjunction they cast to end an Antimagic Field. (It's 1% per caster level, and V has a +1 CL item.)

I mean Haerta probably didn’t have that higher of a chance, but it fit the plot better for her to succeed I guess.

[urbanwolf]

I got a feminine vibe off of Sunny, but after looking it up eye tyrants are genderless.
In my mind Sunny sounds peppy.

[Monstar3014]

It's too bad polymorph isn't dispelled anti-magic. Belkar would have a surprise T-Rex in the midst.

[Yuki Akuma]

It's too bad polymorph isn't dispelled anti-magic. Belkar would have a surprise T-Rex in the midst.

Baleful Polymorph is suppressed by Antimagic Field. The problem is that Bloodfeast is inside a Bag of Holding, which is also suppressed by an Antimagic Field, so he's trapped in an extradimensional space somewhere in the Astral Plane.

[danielxcutter]

Baleful Polymorph is suppressed by Antimagic Field. The problem is that Bloodfeast is inside a Bag of Holding, which is also suppressed by an Antimagic Field, so he's trapped in an extradimensional space somewhere in the Astral Plane.

Let’s hope Bloodfeast gets out of the bag soon. RAW, there’s only about 10 minutes’ worth of air, though a lizard might make that last longer than most PC races.

[Kerching]

OOtS has adopted other comic characters before. Erfworld was once hosted on this site, and when V casted Familicide, among the Black Dragons killed off were the Black Dwagons of Erfworld. So why not? (Also adding this headcanon to TvTropes...)

Wait, what? I didn't see any dwagons in OOtS. Did it happen in Erfworld?

[littlebum2002]

Rich's Patreon backers get access to high-resolution versions of the pages, which I gather makes those pictures on the wall a lot more legible.

Thanks for the heads up! I am a Patreon supporter and I had no idea that this was a thing.

She's insane.
She thinks Xykon's reign is gonna bring about anything resembling equality? It'll just be equal suffering for those who are exceptional at kissing his big bony butt... and if Xykon does eventually fall... it'll be blood soaked revenge for anyone who was close to him, and anyone who was close to those who were close to him, and a determination to make them suffer. You'll just create NEW inequality!

And yet that's still better than the world being destroyed.

I'm late to the party and it was probably said already, but... wait, what? Rich is using WotC IP? Didn't he make jokes about patented material before? I'm a bit surprised to see a beholder?

Yes, he made jokes about how he can't use IP, which was used to get rid of the Mind Flayer & the beholder, as well as Zz'dtri in a later strip. Since Zz'dtri came back, it makes sense that the beholder can as well.

[The MunchKING]

Wait, what? I didn't see any dwagons in OOtS. Did it happen in Erfworld?

Unless it's one of those tiny little blobs at the bottom, I totally don't see it either.

[Yuki Akuma]

Wait, what? I didn't see any dwagons in OOtS. Did it happen in Erfworld?

It happened in Erfworld.

Specifically, the creator of Erfworld retconned all Black Dwagons into Purple Dwagons as a joke.

So it has no bearing on this conversation really.

[danielxcutter]

And yet that's still better than the world being destroyed.

I mean... maybe? I dunno. Xykon did say he might destroy it himself if he gets really bored.

Also, even if the premise is "Xykon takes over the world"... I still find her point of view flawed. She says that eventually Xykon's going to be defeated. The problem is that the Snarl was capable of committing deicide on an entire pantheon in the span of a few rounds, and dismantled the entire first world which was made of four quiddities rather than this world's three. If he was using more "traditional" doomsday device methods, yeah I guess it's not impossible. I find that much less likely when Xykon has the entire multiverse at his heel.

Of course this point is academic at best since the Plan and the gods willing to pull the rug out from this world shifts the entire premise fundamentally... but I still don't see why Serini thinks what she does now. Surely the casters or Soon mentioned what the Snarl can do at some point, considering Shojo knows.

I wonder if that's a parallel to Belkar. Belkar didn't really care much about the main plot until a few days ago. Maybe Serini never bothered too much about the details.

[Fish]

Ooo, I just had a thought.

Sereni and Oona know each other.

And Serini is okay with Oona’s people killing her monster friends, skinning them, and using their fur and skin to make magic items.

Don’t get me wrong. Your idea seems very likely. I’m just having a hard time squaring it with what we know about Serini right now. For it to be true there must be some other element we don’t know about.

[Kardwill]

Intellectually, I know that there's no real problem, but I have trouble telling my gamer side to shut the hell up when it comes to things like these. And you can't really say that some of these situations wouldn't really work well in an IRL game of D&D.

That being said, I actually agree with you that this would still be much less BS than some of the other fights! Having your weaknesses aggressively exploited would be frustrating to fight in the extreme, but Serini does seem to have a plausible way of learning them. Some DMs apparently just take the lazy route and have half the random encounters in the game designed to screw over a PC, but this isn't one of those at all.

Yeah, I remember we saw a green-magic eye scrying on them after the destruction of the desert gate. She's been spying on them for a long time, so it's logical for her to devise a plan exploiting their weaknesses (like their reliance on magic for mundane-but-important stuff like lights, Elan's less-tant-stellar wisdom, or the fact that Roy is the leader and tactician and should be taken out first)

Playing a monster that magically knows everything about you is bull****-GMing, but I think having an intelligent monster use what they legitimately know about the PCs to come up with a plan is fair. At least, that's what I did last week in my Curse of Strahd campaign when my players had their third fight against Strahd von Zarovitch.

[danielxcutter]

I think the most likely scenario is that the fodder monsters are simply non-sentient monsters, either quite literally mindless ones or only animal-level intelligence.

[Fyraltari]

Yeah, I remember we saw a green-magic eye scrying on them after the destruction of the desert gate.

That was Zz'dtri.