OOTS #1238 - The Discussion Thread

[Zombimode]

So could someone tell me how a hypothetical fight between Xykon and Sunny would go? I don't see any exceptions in the antimagic field description to let a high level caster muscle through.

Also, I think in an antimagic field his ability to attack would be equal to an unarmed (albeit epic) commoner? and even his damage reduction is supernatural, so he's just be a high hp commoner.

Does a beholder have the means to attack someone while in the antimagic field?

Only with its very weak bite. Pairing a Beholder with a creature that does not rely on magic for its offensive power is a good combo. But far from unbeatable.

For instance there is nothing stopping you from simply moving out of the affected area. If you're lucky you manage that with just your move action leaving you standard free to deal with the Beholder.
It might be a bit tricky if you're alone. But as soon you have allies (say Xykon + Redcloak) it becomes much easier to deal with a beholder. Barring verry specific circumstances it is not possible for a single Beholder to keep two spellcasters in its Antimagic Cone at the same time for too long.

Don't get me wrong. A Beholder IS a threat for a even an epic spellcaster like Xykon that has to be dealt with, but it can be dealt with.

[mjasghar]

I’m pretty sure the big reason most of us didn’t guess Sunny was because of that SRD thing... good gravy for

Maybe
Tbh I discounted it because when it appeared it didn’t have the Orange speech bubble

[danielxcutter]

Agreed, this was a scary reveal and Roy being down is Not GreatTM^TM, but I don't think this is going to be a curb-stomp battle. Maybe give Belkar & Haley a chance to shine as non-magic focused martials?

I never in a million, billion years would've guessed the beholder from #32 could be the unexpected ally. If it's true, that would be an absolute delight!

They can't see, Serini's still invisible, their magical bonuses and only their magical abilities are disabled, and Serini's got strong enough poisons to drop Roy and O-Chul with ease.

I guess Durkon still has his hammer if it's an artifact oh wait most of its abilities don't work without the belt and gauntlets which are negated by the AMF yeah they're screwed.

"And this is where they'll use Bloodfeast again" feels like the new "And this is where Belkar dies," but it actually seems likely here, if only because the Order doesn't have to do anything other than get him out of their bag, and they don't have a ton of other options.

Unless Rich ignores the rules that's literally impossible. The AMF means they can't take Bloodfeast out of the bag, since that's also magic.

[KishouTheBadger]

I hope that halfling gets her butt kicked hard.

I know she's epic level and running on selective information but I'm still kinda annoyed of her ruining the hero's plans from cleaning up HER TEAM'S MESS.

[dancrilis]

Hmm
Would Stone Shape have worked if Durkon had used it on the wall slightly to the left of the "door"?

Probably not - if the stone is multidimensional it probably resists a lot of basic magic bypasses.

So could someone tell me how a hypothetical fight between Xykon and Sunny would go? I don't see any exceptions in the antimagic field description to let a high level caster muscle through.

As mentioned before it depends on how you read this line:

Elementals, corporeal undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned. These creatures’ spell-like or supernatural abilities, however, may be temporarily nullified by the field.

Xykon's spell-like and supernatural abilities are shut down but he might not be affected by this:

The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities.

Leaving him with actual spells as something that is not listed as shut down for corporeal undead like the other two.

Seperately if his spells are affected (they likely are) then he can fall back on spells that work in an antimagic zone - wall of force, prismatic sphere etc and any he has personally researched and it would be well worth his while to research some, he likely knows how good antimagic is at messing with casters and is prepared for it.

[Sethis]

Reviewing it the beholder was foreshadowed.

Panel 1 the pictures have a beholder beside a small person.

Also interesting Serini has access to anti-magic on demand and still thinks Xykon is unbeatable - which might say a lot about how out of depth The Order are.

Anti-magic doesn't work on Epic spellcasting, which Xykon has.

To be fair this also took down O-Chul, who probably has the best fortitude save this side of epic. She's just that good.

Yeah it has to be a crazy dc. Dwarves will have no recourse either because their racial is what a +4? O'chul's with Paladin Saves is way higher than than above an average cleric's save.

[Dire_Flumph]

I’m pretty sure the big reason most of us didn’t guess Sunny was because of that SRD thing... good gravy for

An "Eye Tyrant" has been in the sold for profit A Monster For Every Season (Winter) for a couple of years now, so I guess that should have been a clue that the SRD thing wasn't an ongoing problem.

Edit: oops, title correction

[hamishspence]

Early Installment Weirdness.

The mind flayer didn't have a coloured speech bubble either:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html


but the carrion crawlers did.

Speech bubbles can also change. Malack the vampire didn't "speak white text on black background" all the time.

[TRH]

Unless Rich ignores the rules that's literally impossible. The AMF means they can't take Bloodfeast out of the bag, since that's also magic.

The cone doesn't seem to cover the whole cavern, though, so Belkar could run out of it and open the bag. And Serini could well let him on the assumption that he's not a threat as a non-spellcaster who still can't see in here.

[Fitzclowningham]

Since the order are all clumped together in a rather narrow cave, they are all in one arc and Sunny can pretty easily keep all of them in the antimagic cone. However, Sunny's other eye rays are neutralized by the field, I can see a scenario in which Sunny alternates rounds with the antimagic and the other eye rays, which would produce a scenario where magic effects on the party toggle on and off. Such as:

The holding (?) effect on Elan
V's Flight and Light spell
The Baleful Polymorph on Bloodfeast
all the various buffs on the Order
and everything I'm forgetting

All of which could make for a pretty seriously chaotic scene, to which I'm very much looking forward

[dancrilis]

Anti-magic doesn't work on Epic spellcasting, which Xykon has.

This has been mentioned before of his three known epic spells Epic Mage Armour, Superb Dispelling and Cloister do you think he should cast if faced with an antimagic field?

Also antimagic does work on epic spells it just doesn't work as well.

[gatemansgc]

This is a child beholder, his final eyestalk hasn't sprouted yet.

the one in 32 also had eight eyestalks!

and the generic avatar beholder for forums also has eight. may be a stylistic choice.

[hamishspence]

Anti-magic doesn't work on Epic spellcasting, which Xykon has.

Well, not reliably.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spel...AntimagicField

Antimagic field does not automatically suppress epic spells as it does standard spells. Instead, each time an epic spell is subject to an antimagic field, make a dispel check as a 20th-level caster (1d20 + 20). The epic spell has a DC of 11 + the epic spell’s spellcaster level. If the suppression check is successful, the epic spell is suppressed like any other spell. If the dispel check is unsuccessful, the epic spell functions normally.

It would depend on Xykon's level - but if Xykon was level 21, the Beholder would need to roll D20+20 and get 12 or higher, each time the epic spell was cast, to see if it suppressed the spell.

But if Xykon was level 30, it would be impossible for the Beholder to suppress any of Xykon's spells because the DC of the check would be 41.

[Fish]

Belkar and Serini both keep giant monsters as friends and pets. They have more in common than I thought.

[gatemansgc]

Reviewing it the beholder was foreshadowed.

Panel 1 the pictures have a beholder beside a small person.

Also interesting Serini has access to anti-magic on demand and still thinks Xykon is unbeatable - which might say a lot about how out of depth The Order are.

did anyone in the 1226 thread notice this? O_O

[danielxcutter]

Probably not - if the stone is multidimensional it probably resists a lot of basic magic bypasses.

I have no idea why people who presumably know about 3.5e keep equating "multidimensional" with "protects against literally anything because PWOT". I've brought this up multiple times and I likely will again, but considering how incorporeality/etherealness works it simply seems that it exists on the Ethereal Plane as well so you can't just cheese it with Ghostform.

As mentioned before it depends on how you read this line:

Seperately if his spells are affected (they likely are) then he can fall back on spells that work in an antimagic zone - wall of force, prismatic sphere etc and any he has personally researched and it would be well worth his while to research some, he likely knows how good antimagic is at messing with casters and is prepared for it.

Yeah, that's not how it works. It just means that those creatures don't instantly fall over dead just because they're magical creatures. As for those spells, it just means once cast they don't shut off in an AMF, but once inside the area there's precisely one spell in the entire edition that can be cast in an AMF by default at all, and it's a 9th-level spell that only lasts a round and is tucked away in a corner of Lords of Madness.

Also sorcerers can't use spell research to learn more spells than they already know, there's a line about that in Ye Olde Peelee's SRD somewhere but I don't recall the specific section.

Anti-magic doesn't work on Epic spellcasting, which Xykon has.

To be fair, the only epic spells we know Xykon knows are Cloister, Superb Dispelling, and presumably Epic Mage Armor. And Superb Dispelling can't get rid of the AMF due to it being a (Su) ability.

[Sethis]

This has been mentioned before of his three known epic spells Epic Mage Armour, Superb Dispelling and Cloister do you think he should cast if faced with an antimagic field?

Also antimagic does work on epic spells it just doesn't work as well.

I would be very surprised if an Epic spellcaster whose primary response to problems is "Kill it with raw power" does not have an offensive epic level spell. He hasn't bothered using it yet, or maybe he didn't think he needed one until after the Uber-Varsuuvius fight, but I suspect he has one now if he didn't then.

A single Hellball would easily 1 shot a beholder, and also probably anybody else in a 40 foot radius.

Plus as noted, Xykon is immune to poison and most of the Beholder's other rays, none of which can work without it turning off the AM field anyways. I don't think its bite even gets through his base Lich DR.

And even without an offensive epic spell, all he needs is to move out the area for 1 standard action and a Power Word Kill, Wail of the Banshee, Horrid Wilting or a number of other spells solves the problem.

[hamishspence]

Plus as noted, Xykon is immune to poison and most of the Beholder's other rays, none of which can work without it turning off the AM field anyways. I don't think its bite even gets through his base Lich DR.

He doesn't get his DR in the field - it's "Magic And Bludgeoning" - and any DR with "Magic" in it, is Supernatural.

Feb. 17, 2006 errata for the Monster Manual on page 1:

Damage Reduction

Damage Reduction is either extraordinary (Ex) or supernatural (Su). Use the following guidelines if it is not specified.

DR X/slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning should be (Ex)
DR X/adamantine should be (Ex)
DR X/— should be (Ex)
DR X/silver or cold iron should be (Su)
DR X/magic should be (Su)
DR X/chaotic, lawful, holy, or unholy should be (Su)

Plus the Lich template itself explicitly says so:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm

Damage Reduction (Su)
A lich’s undead body is tough, giving the creature damage reduction 15/bludgeoning and magic. Its natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

[TRH]

I just checked, and a Lich's DR is a supernatural ability, so it actually gets suppressed by the AMF. Still, he does have other options, between an Epic blast spell that it would feel weird for him to not have, just walking away and casting anything, letting some of Redcloak's called outsiders do the fighting for him, or possibly even ignoring it entirely depending on how one interprets the clause about corporeal undead being unaffected.

[danielxcutter]

I would be very surprised if an Epic spellcaster whose primary response to problems is "Kill it with raw power" does not have an offensive epic level spell. He hasn't bothered using it yet, or maybe he didn't think he needed one until after the Uber-Varsuuvius fight, but I suspect he has one now if he didn't then.

A single Hellball would easily 1 shot a beholder, and also probably anybody else in a 40 foot radius.

Plus as noted, Xykon is immune to poison and most of the Beholder's other rays, none of which can work without it turning off the AM field anyways. I don't think its bite even gets through his base Lich DR.

And even without an offensive epic spell, all he needs is to move out the area for 1 standard action and a Power Word Kill, Wail of the Banshee, Horrid Wilting or a number of other spells solves the problem.

Yeah, here's the thing. Virtually all of the epic spells in the ELH are totally worthless because the DCs are too high. Hellball is one of those them.

I mean yeah, Xykon'd probably win against Serini's team because if this was an actual game then he'd be complete BS for the optimization level of the group, but even then it's less about him being epic and more about him being undead. An epic version of Redcloak would be much easier to fight with either the Order's or Team Serini's skillsets.

[t209]

First time seeing a Beholder in OOTS.
Does he have a pet fish?

[goodpeople25]

Anti-magic doesn't work on Epic spellcasting, which Xykon has.



Yeah it has to be a crazy dc. Dwarves will have no recourse either because their racial is what a +4? O'chul's with Paladin Saves is way higher than than above an average cleric's save.

Cleric's have a high fort save the same as a Paladin/Fighter

Not sure if this is more or less credible than the assumptions with the symbol of insanity way back when. On the one hand Paladins have bad will saves, on the other this is one Paladin who we know has bad Charisma and that was a whole room of Paladins.

[Blue Dragon]

I am speechless. Can barely wait for the next strip.

[danielxcutter]

Cleric's have a high fort save the same as a Paladin\Fighter

Not sure if this is more or less credible than the assumptions with the symbol of insanity way back when. On the one hand Paladins have bad will saves, on the other this is one Paladin who we know has bad Charisma and that was a whole room of Paladins.

Xykon's Charisma is presumably in the low stratospheres. He was probably three times their average level and they probably used NPC budgets, and even then it seems like some of them made their saves.

So yeah.

[P. G. Macer]

First time seeing a Beholder in OOTS.
Does he have a pet fish?

Technically not the first time, as way back when in Strip 32, when the lawyers take away the mind flayer, a beholder makes a cameo. That beholder may actually be Sunny, too.

[danielxcutter]

Technically not the first time, as way back when in Strip 32, when the lawyers take away the mind flayer, a beholder makes a cameo. That beholder may actually be Sunny, too.

There was something about a character who only appeared in one panel so far playing a major part in this book I believe. Sunny hasn't appeared on-panel since then, as when the paladins were kidnapped Sunny was invisible.

[Skull the Troll]

the one in 32 also had eight eyestalks!

and the generic avatar beholder for forums also has eight. may be a stylistic choice.

Needs to be different and not called a beholder so that Serini doesn't get dragged off by the lawyers.

There was something about a character who only appeared in one panel so far playing a major part in this book I believe. Sunny hasn't appeared on-panel since then, as when the paladins were kidnapped Sunny was invisible.

Yes a VERY literal definition of "Appeared in only one strip." :) Well done GITP! I love that he was waiting 17 years for that phone call from them. :)

[Rogan]

Just a quick question or two:

Does Belkar still have lead sheet?
Could he use it to block the effect of the anti magic eye cone?

Not that I think it will happen, but hey you never know!

[hamishspence]

It's implied that some member of the Resistance got hold of it. Maybe they swiped it before he left Azure City?


https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0779.html

[danielxcutter]

Yes a VERY literal definition of "Appeared in only one strip." :) Well done GITP! I love that he was waiting 17 years for that phone call from them. :)

FWIW I had the benefit of hindsight. And not even my hindsight, it's been mentioned earlier in this thread.

And somehow Riftwolf managed to call it before the strip came out and I have no idea how.