OOTS #1238 - The Discussion Thread

[Ron Miel]

Panel 1 the pictures have a beholder beside a small person.

did anyone in the 1226 thread notice this? O_O

Yes.

My guess was not far off, and the post following was a bullseye.

[RatElemental]

If that were the case they wouldn't need to specify that it still shuts down spell-like abilities and supernatural abilities as that would already be covered.

Now that is just redundency in the text but it is redundency that opens up challenges about what is not specifically mentioned for corporeal undead which an undead player/DM could argue.

An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.

An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell’s duration.

I think it's safe to say that this is the section that is important here, and that

The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting (unless they have been summoned, in which case they are treated like any other summoned creatures). Elementals, corporeal undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned. These creatures’ spell-like or supernatural abilities, however, may be temporarily nullified by the field.

Is just clarification that while inherently magical creatures won't instantly drop dead from being inside of the field, their inherent supernatural abilities are still suppressed.

[dancrilis]

I think it's safe to say that this is the section that is important here, and that



Is just clarification that while inherently magical creatures won't instantly drop dead from being inside of the field, their inherent supernatural abilities are still suppressed.

We agree on the correct reading - my take is just that there is a different reading that could be argued.

Imagine you were in the world of OOTS and saw the text of Antimagic Field and someone pointed out the argument that I made - would you want your first test of the field to be in battle against a spellcasting undead to be against an epic level sorcerer Lich or would you prefer to find some low level undead spellcasting creature and run a quick test first to just rule out the potential reading.

[Misery Esquire]

Belkar, I didn't know you watched Doctor Who.

[Jasdoif]

Okay, I know this is a story so the Giant isn't actually going to drop a TPK on them but this is another point on my list of "why OotS shouldn't be used as a guideline for being a DM". And here I thought Rich wasn't going to be doing that kind of fight much more, considering none of the fights in Utterly Dwarfed were that BS. The Battle of the Dining Room was mostly bad rolls. A beholder in an enclosed space that prevents the casters from getting out of its range and a rogue with poison strong enough to beat near-epic Fort saves.

Heck, I'd say they'd have better odds against Team Evil! Outside of the IFCC pulling V out of the fight or Team Evil figuring out the dungeon or some other outside force, the Order literally has no way to fight back and Serini has no intentions of listening to them so talking won't do much good either.

If a group of players is foolhardy/blasé enough to correctly identify an obvious trap and walk the entire party into it anyway, I think they deserve a recalibration of their sense of character mortality.

[sillymel]

If a group of players is foolhardy/blasé enough to correctly identify an obvious trap and walk the entire party into it anyway, I think they deserve a recalibration of their sense of character mortality.

I wish this forum had an upvote button.

---

Also, I’m gonna throw my lot in with guessing Sunny is the “ally that had only appeared on one page so far.”

[The MunchKING]

If a group of players is foolhardy/blasé enough to correctly identify an obvious trap and walk the entire party into it anyway, I think they deserve a recalibration of their sense of character mortality.

I dunno. "Obvious trap, so lets bring all available firepower on it" sounds wiser than "Obvious trap, lets let the rogue and the hostage take it on alone. Maybe throw in the squishiest gal on our team too".

[Robots]

Hm. New update.

I saw this update a while ago, and a bit of the euphoria from the reveal has run out.

But not all of it.

And with that, I must say: OH MY GOOOOOOOOOOOD!!!!!!!!!

Really wondering how Serini met Sunny.

Also, also. 50 imaginary dollars says that Elan goes "oh no! Roy is poisoned!" and attempts to cure it, but it doesn't work because Roy's been hit with a sleeping dart instead of a poison dart.

[Dragonus45]

That is… genuinely impressive that she managed to tame or socialize a thing like a beholder. I wonder how she managed it.

[MartianInvader]

So it's vanishingly unlikely this will matter, but what happens if Roy throws his sword at Serini while the anti-magic ray is active? It exits the ray before hitting her, so does it still get its +5 damage? What about +5 to hit? And what if he tries to recall it while he's in the ray but the sword isn't?

[The MunchKING]

So it's vanishingly unlikely this will matter, but what happens if Roy throws his sword at Serini while the anti-magic ray is active? It exits the ray before hitting her, so does it still get its +5 damage? What about +5 to hit? And what if he tries to recall it while he's in the ray but the sword isn't?

She's invisible, best he could do is target her hex and hope to get lucky.

[Jasdoif]

Okay, I know this is a story so the Giant isn't actually going to drop a TPK on them but this is another point on my list of "why OotS shouldn't be used as a guideline for being a DM". And here I thought Rich wasn't going to be doing that kind of fight much more, considering none of the fights in Utterly Dwarfed were that BS. The Battle of the Dining Room was mostly bad rolls. A beholder in an enclosed space that prevents the casters from getting out of its range and a rogue with poison strong enough to beat near-epic Fort saves.

Heck, I'd say they'd have better odds against Team Evil! Outside of the IFCC pulling V out of the fight or Team Evil figuring out the dungeon or some other outside force, the Order literally has no way to fight back and Serini has no intentions of listening to them so talking won't do much good either.

If a group of players is foolhardy/blasé enough to correctly identify an obvious trap and walk the entire party into it anyway, I think they deserve a recalibration of their sense of character mortality.

I dunno. "Obvious trap, so lets bring all available firepower on it" sounds wiser than "Obvious trap, lets let the rogue and the hostage take it on alone. Maybe throw in the squishiest gal on our team too".

Gathering the entire party together so they're all trivial to hit with the same areas-of-effect, knowing there's a single chokepoint in or out, does not seem wisdom-inspired. Well, I guess unless the players are tired of their characters or the campaign, in which case the TPK may be precisely what they're after....Alternatively, if the players feel they're strong enough to take the ambush on its own terms, they deserve the chance to face the ambush on its own terms like they wanted, with all the risk that entails.

It's certainly a rather messy point of the interaction between the players and the DM, and one I would certainly find uncomfortable with a low-to-mid-level party; but a high-level party should have the means to mitigate or dismantle the ambush itself instead of just walking straight into it and giving a prepared threat a surprise round. (Off the top of my head, imagine if Durkon had tried stone shape to create additional exit points; and either created additional exit points or discovered it wouldn't work before everyone was in danger and Durkon was down an action) If, instead, the players deliberately choose to put the idea of their characters' invulnerability to the test, it's proper for the DM to test the idea of the character's invulnerability.

The setup that'd bring this specific maybe-split-the-party scenario into a game is going to be unusual/interesting, of course; but if the players have in fact arrived at a dungeon complex that's proven capable of stalling the major villain that's several levels higher than they are (and came of their own volition, no less), they can't reasonably be surprised to find encounters that are significantly more threatening than their usual fare.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Behold! Not a great start for the Order, but they still have most of their members on their feet at least. I hope we get more strips with Sunny, they seem like a fun character.

[Ralanr]

I never thought I'd find a beholder adorable.

[danielxcutter]

Gathering the entire party together so they're all trivial to hit with the same areas-of-effect, knowing there's a single chokepoint in or out, does not seem wisdom-inspired. Well, I guess unless the players are tired of their characters or the campaign, in which case the TPK may be precisely what they're after....Alternatively, if the players feel they're strong enough to take the ambush on its own terms, they deserve the chance to face the ambush on its own terms like they wanted, with all the risk that entails.

It's certainly a rather messy point of the interaction between the players and the DM, and one I would certainly find uncomfortable with a low-to-mid-level party; but a high-level party should have the means to mitigate or dismantle the ambush itself instead of just walking straight into it and giving a prepared threat a surprise round. (Off the top of my head, imagine if Durkon had tried stone shape to create additional exit points; and either created additional exit points or discovered it wouldn't work before everyone was in danger and Durkon was down an action) If, instead, the players deliberately choose to put the idea of their characters' invulnerability to the test, it's proper for the DM to test the idea of the character's invulnerability.

The setup that'd bring this specific maybe-split-the-party scenario into a game is going to be unusual/interesting, of course; but if the players have in fact arrived at a dungeon complex that's proven capable of stalling the major villain that's several levels higher than they are (and came of their own volition, no less), they can't reasonably be surprised to find encounters that are significantly more threatening than their usual fare.

It’s easy to come up with better solutions with the benefit of hindsight, isn’t it?

And a beholder encounter like this isn’t much less BS against a high-level party than a mid-level one, considering how reliant PCs are on magic.

Plus, you know, there’s also the factor of previous experience that not instantly following up the rest of the party will screw them over completely. Look at DStP. Look at Durkon and Belkar. Look at the Crystal Golem fight. Splitting up has practically been a guaranteed disaster for them.

Also, taking time to prepare isn’t always a good thing. In our game, we sent the wererat Swordsage in first, but she fell through the ceiling and alerted the entire fortress, and their mage proceeded to kill the dragon shaman, the bard, and both animal companions. Experienced DMs know how to screw over players for preparing as well as for not preparing.

[MartianInvader]

She's invisible, best he could do is target her hex and hope to get lucky.

Sure, that's part of why it's unlikely to matter. Assume the invisibility goes away somehow. I'm more interested in the mechanics of throwing magic items out of an anti-magic field.

[TheNecrocomicon]

That is… genuinely impressive that she managed to tame or socialize a thing like a beholder. I wonder how she managed it.

If she's capable of successfully befriending an entire community of trolls to the point that they happily save her from extensive mortal injuries, a beholder is probably no sweat.

Behold! Not a great start for the Order, but they still have most of their members on their feet at least.

Let's not forget that Serini has already spelled out exactly what her plans are for the Order: to knock them out, induce as total an amnesia as she can regarding her dungeon, then dump them somewhere far away and hope they don't figure out the pieces and come back. It's practically a dramatic inevitability that things will not turn out that way -- contrast her complete taking of the paladins by surprise, so I cannot see how the last battle at her hands repeats, especially with a diverse party in the Order, full of capabilities that Serini has probably not anticipated in her confident assumptions of superiority (read: arrogance).

More likely, in my mind, is that this dust-up ends up a draw or some such, since the Order aren't going to willingly kill the only Scribbler they can meet in person as soon as they become aware who she is, nor is Serini dramatically likely to pull a total party wipe just like Lurkon did in the immediately preceding book. This might also be an opportunity for the Order to show character development in how they can now hold their own as a group even with Roy temporarily down and out (unconscious and not dead, thankfully).

Or maybe this is even just the lead-up to the IFCC busting out their own vaguely-alluded-to plan, upending the whole situation and blindsiding absolutely everyone, as seems likely to be the effect whenever it drops. Maybe this is the prelude to the greater threat forcing everyone to drop their mutual enmities for the greater good of the world. Guess we'll just have to wait and find out, although strips getting posted only a few days apart gives me hope that we won't have to wait all that long to make progress.

[Crimsonmantle]

So the really important question is... they're kid's drawings right, and Sunny is the kid? How does s/he hold the crayon? S/he has no hands. Wrap an eyestalk around it?

[Dire_Flumph]

So the really important question is... they're kid's drawings right, and Sunny is the kid? How does s/he hold the crayon? S/he has no hands. Wrap an eyestalk around it?

One of the eyestalks has the Telekinesis ability. It's how O-chul and Lien were lifted at the end of book 6.

[Jasdoif]

It’s easy to come up with better solutions with the benefit of hindsight, isn’t it?

Certainly. The first time a party gets crushed from blithely running into a trap they know is there, maybe the players will have the experience to consider their options more seriously the next time.

And a beholder encounter like this isn’t much less BS against a high-level party than a mid-level one, considering how reliant PCs are on magic.

Beholders are problematic in multiple ways, as some of D&D's developers have talked about.

Plus, you know, there’s also the factor of previous experience that not instantly following up the rest of the party will screw them over completely. Look at DStP. Look at Durkon and Belkar. Look at the Crystal Golem fight. Splitting up has practically been a guaranteed disaster for them.

Wait. So when you said you have a list of "why OotS shouldn't be used as a guideline for being a DM"...are you looking at it from the top-down and the distortions that happen from trying to fit a long non-interactive narrative into an interactive one; or from the bottom-up and noting each isolated scene in OotS that's resolved in the opposite way of what should ideally happen in an actual game?

I've been treating it as the latter (and protesting here specifically, because players should expect bad things to happen if they do things they know to be a bad idea; that's kind of why they're bad ideas). If it's the former, I can recommend DM of the Rings as satire on the subject.

[facw]

...
I call DM shenanigans.

Wayy back in the first book a ten-eyed creature was ruled off-limits because it wasn't SRD. For Rich to introduce one now is unexpected, yes, but it's unfairly unexpected because it's a creature the DM previously ruled out of bounds.

I suppose there really isn't any reason he can't use a be- or whatever homebrew suspiciously looks like a 3.5E beholder. (a holderbe? A redloheb? ) and the original strip was simply a parody joke. Even so, I don't like this development. As a rule, the strips are funny because Rich finds a way to surprise and delight us while remaining in the confines of the rules he's established for what we are to expect. For him to pull something out of left field like this makes it hard for me to continue suspending disbelief. It makes it too obvious that the author CAN pull anything out if he wants to, and that makes it harder to believe there are any stakes to this outcome.

Be that as it may, I think I'm going to like Serini. She seems pretty good at befriending monsters and the relationship she has with 'Sunny' does suggest a fair amount of love there.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

FWIW, the Winter 2018 A Monster For Every Season has beholder minis, though Rich calls them Eye Tyrants.

[Bilbo Baggins]

That is… genuinely impressive that she managed to tame or socialize a thing like a beholder. I wonder how she managed it.

I think Serini would say something along the lines of, "the word you're looking for is befriend." She certainly has a way with creatures that most would consider monstrous or uncivilized. I'd bet that the way she knows so much about the gates, the Order, and other goings-on around the world isn't through magical means but rather just talking to the right people(/creatures/monsters). Her own version of the Baker Street Irregulars.

[danielxcutter]

Certainly. The first time a party gets crushed from blithely running into a trap they know is there, maybe the players will have the experience to consider their options more seriously the next time.

Beholders are problematic in multiple ways, as some of D&D's developers have talked about.

I do like the beholder feats related to that in Lords of Madness. Focused Antimagic means the entire party isn't stuck shooting non-magical masterwork arrows at the beholder while actually letting the beholder use all of its abilities at once. I still don't like this fight though, because there's not much of an option for the Order besides "get picked off one-by-one" and "try to use Diplomacy", the latter of which seems unlikely considering how Serini seems to feel.

Wait. So when you said you have a list of "why OotS shouldn't be used as a guideline for being a DM"...are you looking at it from the top-down and the distortions that happen from trying to fit a long non-interactive narrative into an interactive one; or from the bottom-up and noting each isolated scene in OotS that's resolved in the opposite way of what should ideally happen in an actual game?

I've been treating it as the latter (and protesting here specifically, because players should expect bad things to happen if they do things they know to be a bad idea; that's kind of why they're bad ideas). If it's the former, I can recommend DM of the Rings as satire on the subject.

I mean to an extent, yeah, but there's a lot of stuff that works in a story but would easily result in calls of BS in an actual game.

The Pit Fiend fight is both a bit out of left field and more importantly, seriously overleveled for the combatants present at that point. The casters barely had 7ths, and the paladins were barely double-digit levels.

Ceila screwed over Haley by somehow being naive enough to completely miss all the problems with Greysky City, and later on the DM effectively dropped the entire guild on her and Belkar with Crystal having a build specifically for countering Haley and Bozzok being at least four levels higher.

Getting faced with the ABD might have been a foreseeable consequence for V, but the sequence after that was railroading fairly hard into taking the IFCC's deal. And I have no idea how "surprise, I can pull your character out of the game any time I want up to three times so suck it up assclown" would be considered a positive thing to do.

And then there's the Vector Legion fight. A literal army, and three quasi-PCs each strong if not stronger than any member of the Order at near-full power, when the entire party minus Haley and V was half-dead and drained.

They make for a great story, don't get me wrong. I just don't think such situations would be that great DMing in a real game.

[Fyraltari]

That is… genuinely impressive that she managed to tame or socialize a thing like a beholder. I wonder how she managed it.

I'l going to guess that the first step was looking at the orphaned child and not thinking of them as a thing to be tamed.

Bloody hell...

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, the only reason I'm complaining about Sunny is because of the setup of this "encounter". I can absolutely buy that Serini managed to raise Sunny to not be like the paranoid, egoistical insane floating orbs of doom Lords of Madness describes them as.

Honestly, I can kinda buy that some supernatural creatures really are different from humans, but I don't think that should be the end-all of things. There's even a short adventure module that does have a village for "monstrous creatures" who don't fit with other beings of their species that do embody the stereotypes associated with them, and the village doctor's a beholder.

In short: I don't like that Serini and Sunny are capable of picking off the Order at their leisure when there wasn't that much of a choice for the Order to do otherwise, but I'm quite happy that Serini raised Sunny well.

[Fyraltari]

In short: I don't like that Serini and Sunny are capable of picking off the Order at their leisure when there wasn't that much of a choice for the Order to do otherwise, but I'm quite happy that Serini raised Sunny well.

This is so weird to me. This is not a game, there are no risk of this encounter not going the way The Giant wants it to. There are no players guaranteed to have overwhelming odds to win every fight. An author, unlike a game master has no obligation to handicap their villains, in fact given the habit of readerships to root for the underdog and the needs for narrative tension, an author has more reasons to handicap their heroes.

This isn't even a case where an antagonist wins simply by author fiat rather than it arising organically from the story: the Order is engaging a specialist of fighting dirty on her home turf on her own terms, of course she is going to stack the deck in her favour!

[danielxcutter]

This is so weird to me. This is not a game, there are no risk of this encounter not going the way The Giant wants it to. There are no players guaranteed to have overwhelming odds to win every fight. An author, unlike a game master has no obligation to handicap their villains, in fact given the habit of readerships to root for the underdog and the needs for narrative tension, an author has more reasons to handicap their heroes.

This isn't even a case where an antagonist wins simply by author fiat rather than it arising organically from the story: the Order is engaging a specialist of fighting dirty on her home turf on her own terms, of course she is going to stack the deck in her favour!

Intellectually, I know that there's no real problem, but I have trouble telling my gamer side to shut the hell up when it comes to things like these. And you can't really say that some of these situations wouldn't really work well in an IRL game of D&D.

That being said, I actually agree with you that this would still be much less BS than some of the other fights! Having your weaknesses aggressively exploited would be frustrating to fight in the extreme, but Serini does seem to have a plausible way of learning them. Some DMs apparently just take the lazy route and have half the random encounters in the game designed to screw over a PC, but this isn't one of those at all.

[TooSoon]

Reviewing it the beholder was foreshadowed.

Panel 1 the pictures have a beholder beside a small person.

Also interesting Serini has access to anti-magic on demand and still thinks Xykon is unbeatable - which might say a lot about how out of depth The Order are.

Yeh it really does underscore how much Xykon is being undersold as level "21+" on the class stats thread. The guy is obviously much higher than that.

[Mariele]

I don't think this is going to be the one-panel ally, actually. But feel free to bet against me.

A beholder, a mimic, and trolls... Serini sure knows how to break barriers and make friends! :) I like her and am looking forward to more screen time with her. Can't believe this update was so fast, feeling downright spoiled lol.

[danielxcutter]

Yeh it really does underscore how much Xykon is being undersold as level "21+" on the class stats thread. The guy is obviously much higher than that.

21+ is the bare minimum we can provide concrete proof for, anything higher is conjecture no matter how likely it is.

I do agree that Xykon's probably like in the high 20s or so, there just isn't a way to prove it beyond doubt. Not beyond reasonable doubt, beyond doubt period.

Edit:

That being said, Xykon's monstrously powerful and Serini's poison or sneak attack won't do anything against him. Not to mention Sunny can't zap him with eye rays while the AMF cone's up.