OOTS #270 - The Discussion Thread

[PhoeKun]

Nah, I expect it to last three days. No strips over the weekend.

You sir, are my hero. I only wish I could be so clever.

Back to the subject at hand, why are so many people so delighted by the prospect of Miko being horribly killed and/or disgraced? She's done nothing wrong: all her actions are within the tenets of a samurai and (more importantly) a paladin. Everything she does is by the will of the 12 Gods of the South and her Lord Shojo, and her service has rewarded her with divine gifts, which she in turn uses only for the sake of her masters.

Nothing she has ever done has been for herself. She's slain ogres with no prospect of reward. She's entered a burning buildings to search for trapped people. She's traveled deep into foreign lands to apprehend "dangerous criminals" (whether or not they deserved to be brought to Shojo's court is irrelevent. Its not like Miko woke up one day and said, "I think I'll head North and arbitrarily force my viewpoint on some hapless adventurers. If you've got a problem, take it up with Shojo and the 12 Gods). Heck, she's even given those same criminals quarter in two fights to the death.

I mean, Belkar was dying at the end of the second fight. At a 10% chance per round of self-stabilizing (and 3 rounds left in which to stabilize), its a fairly safe bet to say Belkar would be dead right now if not for some magical help. Whether it came from Miko personally or from Durkon, she still allowed him to be healed. That's a heck of a compassionate act.

I gave Belkar credit for coming up with a good plan. Maybe some of you should consider giving Miko credit for her acts of self-lessness, integrity, and honor. Please?

[Tycho_Bloodbeard]

Excellent strip!

I still find it really interesting the level of polarization that the Belkar/Miko conflict causes in many of us.

I am not an evil person. I don't push old ladies into the street, hurt animals, or stalk people. I do believe in rules, as long as they further general well being (call me NG in real life).

However, I am also fond of black humour, and cynicims and "the dark" also have their appeal. Taunting the paladin to the extent that she fights like crap (when she had beat the whole OOTS and chained them) and gets hurt is a stroke of tactical genius.

Having lived in a country (Mexico) with strong handed law officers with little regard for situational modifiers (Miko did kill the bandit leader and daughter, when even Belkar acquiesced to leave them be) it is for me completely comprehensible how this is bound to generate antipathy. Hence, the amount of people rooting for the evil little booger (go Belkar!).

I do understand why several readers are upset at Belkar - basically, rejecting the evil one, instead choosing the clearly-defined good. I don't. I like witty, charismatic characters who never say die, fight 'till the end, and take as many of the bastards with them when they go.

Additionally, had Miko been more diplomatic, all this mess would have been prevented. It is irrelevant whether her actions are justified or not (given her charge) - she is a hardass, and even though she fights for a greater good her methods are far from sound.

Those who have seen the french movie "Dobermann" (not for the squeamish) probably can understand this well - at the moment of confrontation, it seldom matters who is good or evil when the situation is not handled properly.

Tycho

[Lady_Orc]

*blissful smile* Aaaahhh...everything that I hoped for. Burn baby, BURN!

[Icosahedron]

I am amazed at the number of people willing to trot out Paladins that they or someone they know have pitifully role played as "The Only Way To Play a Paladin so smite You, Me!" Just because you can't roleplay, doesn't mean the rest of us can't. Yes, many newbie drift towards the Paladin for the Meta Game advantages that are only offset by roleplayed Dis-ads. But some of us are roleplayers, and a roleplayer is defined by dealing with the Disadvantage. If you can't hack it, be a fighter, be honest enough to realize the weakness is with you, not the Paladin.

You misunderstand me. I was speaking to Miko's arrogance. I happen to like paladins; they're probably my favorite class and I have been roleplaying for nearly 30 years. I can and have effectively roleplayed a wider variety of characters than most people. I don't believe any class is too weak; all can be roleplayed effectively.

Again, I was refering to Miko specifically, not paladins in general.

[Devoured_Dude]

"When in doubt, set something on fire"

A very clever tactical manuver for Belkar. Miko is hurt, and will have to make concentration checks to cast spells as long as she is burning.

Also, fire creates smoke. Smoke rises. Being a low-to-the-ground halfling will have its advantages.

[Lady_Orc]

Same is true with most paladins

Especially the ones played by people who think that alignment says everything you need to know about a person and that everything that blips 'Evil' on their stupid 'Detect Evil' radar should be put do death.

[Gilthans]

I didn't actually finished the thread, but I'd like to mention that if (and in my opinion, when) Belkar kills Miko, its like she said, there are dozens of clerics in that building, there'll be enough of them willing to cast Raise Dead on such a high level paladin.
And I don't think that the OotSers will get punished if Belkar does kill her, I mean, its not like they encouraged him, its not their fault.

Oh yeah, and about the fight (spoiler)
I actually think Belkar has a good chance. Since they're in a cellar, he can probably find enough sake for a some nice burnination, and since its the cellar of a paladin order, it MUST have weapons there, possibly many darts and throwing daggers. Also, those who read the battle description of the OotS against Miko would've noticed that she won much thanks to Windstrike (him getting in the way alot, and breaking Haley's weapon), Miko taking out V early, and using her stunning kick on Belkar. Since she doesn't have a surprise round this time, Belkar might actually attack this time, and with Rage he has a very good chance at one on one (unless I'm mistaken, Rage gives bonuses to Will Save? Too bad for you, stun kick!)
But Rich was never famous for being predictable, so I guess we'll all have to see what happens monday. :)


Gilth, out

[mec]

Monday is a long time away!

I know! All this time ... Friday night ... Saturday ... Sunday ... it just drags on and on.

I can't wait for Monday morning! ;)

[Lady_Orc]

. . .

Miko IS A GOOD GUY!!!

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

Actually, Miko is exactly the kind of character that gives 'good guys' a bad name. Good thing we have characters like Roy and Durkon to remind us that Good characters don't have to be like her.

[Bakemono]

Just a few points I noted.

Those daggers are doing ok damage, damage dice(d2 I'm thinking, small daggers) + Str bonus (no idea but must be something; 2 or 3 ish I'd guess) + favoured enemy bonus (maybe +6; somewhere in that region), so probably around 10 pts per dagger. He could be getting extra damage from rage too, but that doesn't seem as likely currently.

Endure elements, although a paladin spell won't help; they've been upgraded to 3.5 and in 3.5 the spell simply protects from environmental temperatures, not fire damage.

Paladins DO NOT lose abilities for acting non-lawfully, only for acting in a non-good manner; so violating the court order or even the agreement with Belkar are not going to cause problems in that way. Although roleplay wise Miko should probably do penance of some sort for acting non-lawfully too, rules-wise it has no effect.
Her Samurai code may well be a different matter, although somehow I don't see seppuku in her near future.

Just because Belkar only carries a couple of daggers normally does not mean that that's all he has in the store room, they may not even be his daggers, the evil little (not by class) thief :).

Miko's monk levels contribute D8 not D10 to her hps, so she may be lower on them than we'd expect.

Miko has at least one or two "smite evils" left for today.

Disclaimer: The Giant is in charge and any/all rules may vary, references are just PHB stance.

This should be a great fight, and is one of the most enjoyable comics for a while. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens, while not really minding whichever way it goes.

[Deleran]

Firstly: That fire is doing more than 1d6 damage. Belkar used an accelerant.

Secondly: Miko is a freaking antangonist! Belkar is a protagonist! How the heck can you be rooting for Miko?

[BardicLasher]

Secondly: Miko is a freaking antangonist! Belkar is a protagonist! How the heck can you be rooting for Miko?

I root for Draco Malfoy.

[Rei_Jin]

Having just read the last 14 or so pages of responses, I am surprised at the outright anger and fighting that has been going on.

Miko was originally out to either kill the OOTS or bring them to justice. That was a LAWFUL order from her superior, because they had committed an EVIL act. Whether or not she had jurisdiction is not important, she was doing as she was told. If her instructions are to bring them back alive, if possible, and if not, to kill them, she has every right to act as she has, AS DO THEY (including Belkar). They had every right to reject her "request" to go to the Southlands. They are not under the law of her master, but she is, and as such, she follows his instructions. If they had died in the fight then she would still have been fine, alignment wise and class wise.

I believe that Belkar's actions at the moment are fine. His method of escape was not, nor was his method of attention gaining (blood on the walls). HOWEVER, Her fight with Belkar is simple. A fight between equals. Yes, stat wise and level wise Belkar is probably outmatched, but he has no restrictions on him. Miko does, and that puts them equal in my book

And in regards to the fire...Which do you think hurts more, being hit with a greatsword, or a spiked chain? Do you ever take into account the feelings of the monsters you are attacking, and try to kill them with the least pain possible, or do you try and kill them as quickly as possible?

And you know when you beat a BBEG that you dance around happily. It is a difficult foe, beaten. Whether Miko or Belkar wins, I do not care. I just want people who read this comic to view it as what it is, a comic based on D&D.

If OOTS was real world, and we applied real world rulings to it, then every strip from #1 onwards would have to change.

[Vampire_Boy]

Miko was originally out to either kill the OOTS or bring them to justice. That was a LAWFUL order from her superior, because they had committed an EVIL act.

EVIL act? Which act was that? Defeating the Good Xykon who was taking good care of the Gate?

[Rei_Jin]

No, the EVIL act was the destruction of the gate and the weakening of the fabric of the universe. They themselves admitted to it, and whether it was intentional or not does not change the fact that they did indeed destroy the gate.

Yes, Xykon was evil, and the destruction of the gate was probably necessary. That doesn't change the fact that it was an evil act to destroy the gate.

For example, killing Orcs simply because they are orcs is an evil act. If they attack you, then you are well within your rights (as a D&D character) to defend yourself, and kill them. If they ask for quarter, if they surrender, it is an evil act to kill them. Just because a creature has an evil alignment doesn't make it right to kill it.

[Bakta]

Miko was originally out to either kill the OOTS or bring them to justice. That was a LAWFUL order from her superior, because they had committed an EVIL act

me again,

I do not pretend to have real knowledge of the current rules, last time I played DD it was like v2.0, but, to me, what seems to fire up so many people here is the good/evil debate which is as old as my first character.

Quoting the post above as start one must mention that OOTS are brought here to decide whether or not they havecomitted one not what kind of punishment they deserve. One must note too, that OOTS encompass the whole spectrum of aligment from good to evil. That didn't prevented them from sticking together. That runs true even for Belkar, I've seen LG players leaving the casters unprotected because they -just- had to sway whatever weapons they had against the ennemies with about the same results as in the strip.

Which brings us at Miko vs Belkar. First tauting the paladin is an international pastime, no player right in his mind can't help himself, one must have a swipe at the ever holier than thou. Some players take it in stride, for it's only a momentary thing, some get stuck up like Miko. In this regard Belkar is no different than, say, V.
As the saying goes all is fair in love and war (or duel).

Due respect must be given to Miko's reaction for considering a paladin has to live under fair ruling. This is highnoon, having a line of cleric healing you everytime one is scratched is below contempt. She ain't stupid either, and will use her ability to the fullest.

Now, and the main point here. I hope that most polarized posters realize this is a comic, as in fun, and not ragnarrok. The Giant's purpose is to make us laugh, somethin he does successfully, and death is not a laughin matter.

Unless...

Miko pulls out a obi-wan thing...acting like OOTS' guardian angel (with emphasis on guardian) may be ground to lot more laughs.

nahh, it would upset too many readers


[edit] :

killing Orcs simply because they are orcs is an evil act

Not under DD terms, orcs are evil, thus leaving them alive is an evil act for you know they cannot be redeemed, and will commit an evil act anytime they're able to.

Ahhh the age old "is is LG to burn baby kobolds". Fixed alignment is so unrealistic, even for a fantasy world.

[Flippy]

Did anyone notice that there was once again a shadow?

[Rei_Jin]

Another good example of this is the "small evil to save people" type argument.

If you had captured a prisoner, who had knowledge about a BBEG, and without that information you would not be able to stop him, would you torture him for the information?

(yes, I'm aware there are other methods of getting the information, let's leave that aside for now.)

What if that information was needed to save the lives of people. Many people. Maybe a whole city, a whole continent. Maybe just your wife/husband/partner/relative/person you care about. Would you do it then? According to the Book of Exalted Deeds, torture, no matter for what reason, is an evil act. If a Paladin had two choices, torture the prisoner and save a city, or not torture him and watch the city burn, most (PC) Paladins would choose to torture him.

In real life, I know I would too.

But, in D&D, this is a reprehensible act, and it actual indicates that you have let evil win. The big pendulum of Good vs Evil has swung over to evil's side. As such, all (NPC) Paladins should not torture him. It is giving in to Evil.

Yes, it does not necessarily make sense to you or me. But this is the way that the game is played.

D&D does not function under the rules of our world. If it did, it would not be as fun to play. It is fantasy.

[Darius Midnite]

God almighty! Belkar was so cool!
It was like an epic battle*sniff* an Belkar won!

Must say, it was the most exiting strip since #200.

Good job Giant, can't wait for strip #300... ;)

[Sc00by]

I wasn't going to reply to this, but....

Guys - take a deep breath - relax - focus!

It's a comic based on one of the most bloodthirsty (generally) games on the face of the planet.

People may get hurt


Anyway - my take on the battle: Belkar is an evil little toe rag (he should wear his hoodie more often and say 'innit', get some white trainers and wear bling ;) (anyone from the UK will get that reference - for the rest of you Chavs) and deserves to die a horrible and painful death.

Miko is just a bit annoying... ::)

So Belkar all the way then? ;)

Also - speaking as a player of many a pyromaniac mage! "If in doubt set it on fire!" Classic! ;D

Great stuff Mr Burlew Sir!

[Leveller]

Miko's demise is also in the best interest... of this reader. I'm getting durned tired of her.

Go Belkar!!!



Hey, I'm not a pixie anymore. :D

Hell yeah ;D
The pro-miko/anti-Belkster people are taking this comic WAY TO SERIOUSLY. I mean, you have to be able to separate reality and fantasy. Some people said they were upset because noone felt bad for miko, I'm getting scared there's so many people out there that can't see the difference between a DnD comic and real life.

So I say, Go Belkar bcause he's funnier and he's part of the original order.

Die Miko Because she is not funny and is the orders ENEMY.

[Belkarseviltwin]

1d6 non-magical fire, you say? Who knows? Maybe it was enchanted sake...

Belkar gets his level-12 stat bump from killing the guard.
He puts it into Wisdom (shock!)
That gives him Wisdom 11.
Durkon slips him a divine scroll of Bless Water.
As a divine caster, he can use it.
He casts it on the sake, making it magical.
Instant magical fire!

[Frank]

It's not just good versus evil here...

Belkar and the OOTS got their butts handed to them by Miko. Belkar, though evil, is combating someone probably two to three times a higher level than he...alone.

That takes incredible fortitude and guts. It takes cajones. He, my friends...is an underdog. And he is taking on the fight of his LIFE to stand up for his chaotic beliefs.

(That, of course, only answers the "what". The "How", obviously, is "evil".)

Think about what any other member of the OOTS would do, after being defeated.


Roy: Would try to talk her down and then either give in, or charge and die.

Elan: Would probably run...and sing to give himself a speed boost if possible. And run some more.

Haley: Would probably throw her arms in the air, get all indignant, then give in until she could find a new route to escape.

V: She'd narrow it to logic. Gee...I can't win. I'm lawful. I'm smart...maybe I can outwit their lawyers. I have good words.

Durkon: My God tells me what to do. And Miko just owned my much more tanky and arcane/knowledgable comrades. Uhhhhh...duh. Go Thor.

But here's Belkar:


Belkar: I have escaped from prison. I could get myself lost in the city, bail out on my friends, and go hop a boat and get the Hell out of here. Maybe even kill some innocents.

Oh. Wait. No. You know what? Screw that. I got bested by a hoity toity stick up the behind paladin who IMPRISONED me. Took away my ability to MOVE FREELY!

You know what. Forget it. I'm going to take my chances and STAY in the fully armed castle and, more than that, CHALLENGE her to a duel, despite the fact I am physically overmatched. So all I have left now are my brains and the very little amount of equipment I own or that I rummaged to find...but dang it, I'm not leaving this castle until I teach that wench a lesson (And perhaps...save his friends?)


It is clear that Belkar isn't doing this to kill good...he's doing this because the good is a lawful that believes she has power over him. And she DOES. And she BEAT him. And that seriously bothers the chaotic nature of Belkar more than the Evil nature. So now, well, he's decided to take a brave and noble stand and go 1 on 1 against someone who's clearly a superior fighter. If she can reach him, she'll kill him or bring him to justice.

So now he's going to humiliate her and defeat her spirit. He's going to stick it to her...and yes, it is evil, but I believe it is evil for the direct effect of further incensing her. He COULD say something less evil, but he doesn't...because he's purposefully committing evil to counter her nature to be good all because of her lawfulness dominating his chaos.


So maybe, just maybe...Belkar killed the guard thinking he wouldn't get a fair trial. Maybe the drawing was in the red pen he had earlier, not in blood. And maybe, he is being evil just to teach Miko a lesson about chaos/law rather than just trying to harm a good guy.

Maybe Belkar can come out of this, afterall...as a Chaotic Neutral who has been put in his deepest fear space, and thus, is forced to fight back and teach his end of morality.

After all...he didn't just leave his friends high and dry. He knows they were innocent in all this...maybe he's looking to set things right.

But eh.

-Frank

[rosebud]

You sir, are my hero. I only wish I could be so clever.

Awwww. Thanks! Actually, you are, too...

her service has rewarded her with divine gifts, which she in turn uses only for the sake of her masters.

The first time I read that, I read "sake" in the two-syllable form that makes your sentence darkly ironic. ;)

Nothing she has ever done has been for herself.

You've presumably read Roy's speech. Do you agree with any of it? (Before the personal insult section.)

Maybe some of you should consider giving Miko credit for her acts of self-lessness, integrity, and honor. Please?

Miko's the type of person who tattles on everyone else to those in authority. While that might be "right", it's generally anti-social. Those in authority like her. Everyone else despises her.

[Xarkan]

It's not just good versus evil here...

Belkar and the OOTS got their butts handed to them by Miko. Belkar, though evil, is combating someone probably two to three times a higher level than he...alone.

Miko is not 2-3 times Belkars level.. at least there are no indications that remotely point to such

[Cirin]

Not under DD terms, orcs are evil, thus leaving them alive is an evil act for you know they cannot be redeemed, and will commit an evil act anytime they're able to.

Ahhh the age old "is is LG to burn baby kobolds". Fixed alignment is so unrealistic, even for a fantasy world.

Well, you said you don't know 3rd Edition terms, so here's a little update for you. Orcs can be redeemed, there is no creature in fact that can't at least be theoretically redeemed (albeit extremely difficultly), and Orcs are relatively easy.

The alignment entry from "Orc" in the 3rd Edition Monster Manual is "Often Chaotic Evil". You see, now, creatures have not just their alignment, but how common that alignment is to their race.

It has three types:
Often: A plurality of the race has that alignment, either by nature or nurture, but the tendency isn't particularly strong. Exceptions are common. Example: Humans are Often True Neutral

Usually: The majority of creatures have this alignment, the alignment is due to culture or a tendency due to the origin of the race. Example: Elves are often Chaotic Good

Always: This creature is born with the alignment, it's either hereditary or innate to the creature. It's theoretically possible for them to change alignment, but it is a unique case or a very rare event. Example: Balors are Always Chaotic Evil

Thus, more Orcs are Chaotic Evil than any other alignment, and you'll find many orcs that are True Neutral, Neutral Evil, or Chaotic Neutral. You could even find a rare Chaotic Good or Neutral Good orc, or even possibly a Lawful Good one, especially away from their culture (which encourages CE behavior).

[Vampire_Boy]

No, the EVIL act was the destruction of the gate and the weakening of the fabric of the universe. They themselves admitted to it, and whether it was intentional or not does not change the fact that they did indeed destroy the gate.

Yes, Xykon was evil, and the destruction of the gate was probably necessary. That doesn't change the fact that it was an evil act to destroy the gate.

Exactly why was it an Evil act? Yes, yes, the whole weakening of fabric of reality thing that a few people have mentioned. Sounds very ominous, doesn't it? Just that... uh, have you seen any signs of this so called reality actually being weakened, whatever it might mean? Furthermore - if the consequences of destroying the gate are so severe, wouldn't you think that putting a tantalizing red button and a sign: "For the love of God, DO NOT PUSH!" next to the gate, and then later complaining about something is a bit hypocritical at best?

Heh, maybe the Sapphire Guard are simply in trouble with their Gods because of this and now are using OoTS as scapegoats for their own ineptitude and incompetence in defending the gate?

[rosebud]

From a purely statistical perspective I still think Miko's going to win this one. As far as I can tell Belkar's never carried any more than the two daggers at a time

From a statistical perspective, people thought Miko would have lost against OOTS. And, conversely, General Custer didn't think much of the Lakota armies. The Story will decide who is the winner or if there even is a winner. At this point, any outcome is possible.

even if some didn't like her before she got burninated, or still don't but can express sympathy for her current situation

My personal preference (which has no weight =) is for both of them to be spun off into a separate strip (eg, "Everybody Hates Miko", "Halfling Hunter", "The Paladin and The Psychopath", etc...). :)

Belkar crossed a line that, short of divine intervention, makes reassociation difficult.

Miko is salvageable, but what purpose does she serve at this point? She's no longer a foil to Roy. She completed her mission of bringing them to the Azure City. Short of backstory, the conflict between her and Belkar is the only unresolved thread that currently involves Miko. It's possible, of course, one or both are a deeper party of the storyline. But it's also possible that one or neither are.

I don't especially like Miko and up till now I've found Belkar's evil more funny than offensive (I'm prone to fits of LG-ness in real life), but this kind of creeps me out. It's not particularly logical, but it probably stems from some innate primal fear of fire, and innate primal fears aren't generally known for their reasonableness.

I think it's called "not being a psychopath". Nothing to apologize for or worry about! :D

It doesn't matter if Miko dies or not. (...) Upon finding her remains, the Paladins bring her body back to Lord Shojo

The hardest core Belkarite would ask, "What Paladins? What City?"

Otherwise, very nice logic.

Remember, Elan actually did destroy the gates. There is no getting around that.

Good thing they weren't charged for the destruction of the gates, yeah?

Belkar has thrown both his daggers

He has a whole freaking warehouse of supplies. This is the climax of the movie. The heroine and anti-hero meet. That's where major special effects budgets get spent.

Much like #189, something about the strip just feels wrong to me

Belkar is chaotic evil.

It was funny until the last couple of frames.

They're battling to the death. Ha ha. To paraphrase Belkar, "I believe chaotic evil was mentioned?"

being burned like that simply seems too much, at least at the moment.

See also: "chaotic evil".

[bexie]

Belkar is so cool! All of Miko's pretty hair gone....ha ha. she so deserved it though.

...Not many people in Order of The Stick like Belkar, do they? Poor Belkar. :(

I like him though! ;D BELKAR ROCKS!!!

lol.

[Rei_Jin]

Regardless of whether or not you view as evil the destruction of the gate and the weakening of the fabric of the universe, as charged by Lord Shojo is irrelevant.

It is possible that they did not weaken the fabric of the universe, and as such they committed no evil act. However, until that is shown to be the case, they are charged as having committed an evil act, to which they agreed that they did destroy the gate. What comes from that destruction, they are responsible for.

If the Gods are willing to send a Celestial to the realms to judge them, then they too must believe that an evil act has been committed. Who by, and what mitigating circumstances there are remains to be seen.

Frankly, I think that this discussion on the nature of the charge is over and if you wish it to continue further, please start up a thread devoted to it, this is not the place for it.