OOTS #1239 - The Discussion Thread

[Rogan]

If things could just fall out that way, there's no guarantee Bloodfeast would fall out first. Unless the bag of holding is otherwise remarkably empty.

Plus, getting hit by a falling dinosaur sounds painful. I'm not sure there would be enough room to avoid this.

[ATHATH]

If things could just fall out that way, there's no guarantee Bloodfeast would fall out first. Unless the bag of holding is otherwise remarkably empty.

Well, that'd make for a nice splash panel of all of the random stuff that Belkar's been storing in that bag.

[ATHATH]

Also, does "theres'" have its apostrophe in the wrong place in the second to last panel?

[doriel]

But then she'd only know about Haley and Belkar, since Roy's period of being dead almost exactly coincided with the Order being split up. If she knows anything about Elan, V or Durkon it'd be evidence she was using Bluff and Sense Motive against O'chul rather than having been scrying on people.

I personally think either is possible. An Epic Rogue is capable of just about anything, but a semi-maimed grandma might also not want to work THAT hard if she doesn't have to.

Edit - An epic rogue would also be capable of epic shirking.

Wasn't V casting message to her? She KNOWS about them. How much however ...
Besides, if she was only scrying them when near a gate, then she would know a lot about the order, but not everything.
And I am sure she doesn't know about the gods' decision anyway or else she wouldn't be willing to leave Xikon anywhere near the gate (unless she believes her dungeon is effective keeping them away forever).

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

Belkar says "Behold!" and then nothing happens. So we can say that there are no beholders in this strip. Move along, lawyers.

[Ionathus]

Interesting that Serini referred to Haley as the leader. She might just mean that she's the one actually calling the shots now that Roy's down, but it seems more natural to assume she didn't know Roy was the leader. Which puts a limit to the extent of her knowledge about the Order.

Agreed, I do think this might be a sign she hasn't stopped to fully evaluate the Order.

I also appreciate how they're not falling apart as a team the second Roy is taken off the board!

[anonymsly]

To me, our many-eyed monster’s central anti-magic eye has one big disadvantage - if you can get behind him, you have magic again. Of course, you’re also dealing with an epic-level rogue at that time, but hey! No risk no reward.

If I were Belkar, I’d be very tempted to ask Durkon (or a Durkon/Minrah combo, Minrah’s gotta have decent Str and halflings aren’t that heavy) to fling me up high, outside of the antimagic zone, THEN take out my transfigured lizard and let it drop back into the field so the Bloodfeast can get going. Maybe try to get an eye poke in while I’m up there, especially since I’ve got a ring of feather fall that can extend my airtime a bit. Even getting the critter to look away for a second might let the party evoked fire off an instantaneous-duration spell.

[Windscion]

Knowing that his weapon destroyed the Gate without him actually doing it is neither biased nor ignorant. That's a pretty specific truth.

Invalid inference and invalid reading of my words.

Invalid inference: Serini doesn't need to know that another wielded the blade. She just knows that O'Chul said that his blade did the deed (#663) without elaborating. She knows how to hint at knowledge without needing to possess it. A classic bit of misdirection, and only requires her to be scrying (or spying) on Hinjo at some point when the issue came up, or even sneaking in to read his notes. (Assuming Hinjo writes stuff down, which he probably does, given his responsibilities.)

Invalid reading of my words: I very clearly attribute Serini's mistaken impressions to ignorance and/or paranoia. Knowing something (i.e., who broke the gem) is never, by definition, a matter of ignorance (or paranoia). Your statement is therefore no more than a tautology. Also, irrelevant to the issue at hand. Also? Based on an invalid inference.

Meanwhile, it is blindingly obvious that Serini is missing some crucial information re: the Gods. And this lack of information (a state also known as "ignorance") is causing her to fight people whose goals align with her own.

[denthor]

This one is still just set up material. It made me laugh at least.

[TRH]

Invalid inference and invalid reading of my words.

Invalid inference: Serini doesn't need to know that another wielded the blade. She just knows that O'Chul said that his blade did the deed (#663) without elaborating. She knows how to hint at knowledge without needing to possess it. A classic bit of misdirection, and only requires her to be scrying (or spying) on Hinjo at some point when the issue came up, or even sneaking in to read his notes. (Assuming Hinjo writes stuff down, which he probably does, given his responsibilities.)

Invalid reading of my words: I very clearly attribute Serini's mistaken impressions to ignorance and paranoia. Knowing something (i.e., who broke the gem) is never, by definition, a matter of ignorance (or paranoia). Your statement is therefore no more than a tautology. Also, irrelevant to the issue at hand.

Meanwhile, it is blindingly obvious that Serini is missing some crucial information re: the Gods. And this lack of information (a state also known as "ignorance") is causing her to fight people whose goals align with her own.

If we're now required to ostentatiously declare specific fallacies when conducting a debate, then I'll point out that I wasn't discussing the matter of the Gods and other things Serini doesn't know about the overall situation, so bringing that up is an unnecessary tangent. She clearly doesn't know everything, but I'm concerned with things she does know.

As for what she knows about O-Chul, just knowing that his sword destroyed the Gate would at a minimum require her to be able to eavesdrop on the conversation at the end of Don't Split the Party. We've never seen or heard of the Sapphire Guard keeping notes on the Gates, so your mention of Hinjo keeping such is, in your words, an invalid inference. Their creation myth surrounding the Gates is passed down orally, from what we've seen, so why would even more sensitive information about the current status of the Gates be recorded in a medium that makes it far easier to steal?

And feel free to rag on my inferences as much as you want, but if you are correct about her having gained her knowledge of what happened in Azure City via hearing O-Chul's report, then it wouldn't take a ton of inference on her part to realize that "My sword committed the deed...I will say no further lest I speak ill of the dead" is obvious weasel wording, and what the actual meaning is implied to be. So the most conservative read on her intelligence capabilities tells us she can and has observed the paladins closely, and could likely do the same to the party, in which case she might know rather a lot about their abilities. And if she's done so at all recently, then everyone saying that she's assumed Haley is the real leader of the party may be jumping the gun a little. They might be right, but I'll remain agnostic on that question until after she's got them all trussed up and begins monologuing at them.

[Riftwolf]

Time for the Omega Plan: Halfling bumps

[Quizatzhaderac]

Now that you mention this...
This would require the maximum range of the arrows to be nearly the same than the maximum range of the hammer (without all the magic enchanting the hammer throw).

This seems to be unlikely...

Or it would require Rich not drawing things to scale. Let's assume Rich wanted to depict two arrows (shot literally blindly) missing, a hammer not going far enough up, and the target. Realistically those four things would be very far apart.

If done with a big panel, we would have mostly empty space and waste a lot of paper and ink in the books for a panel of middling importance.

If done with a small panel, the missiles would be easy to miss. Details on Serini would be hard to make out.

'Course, that'd require a conscious member of the Order to actually be strong enough to throw a bag that high without magical assistance.

Durkon got his hammer up high enough that it would have left the cone at anything but it's highest point.

[Rogan]

Or it would require Rich not drawing things to scale. Let's assume Rich wanted to depict two arrows (shot literally blindly) missing, a hammer not going far enough up, and the target. Realistically those four things would be very far apart.

If done with a big panel, we would have mostly empty space and waste a lot of paper and ink in the books for a panel of middling importance.

If done with a small panel, the missiles would be easy to miss. Details on Serini would be hard to make out.

Durkon got his hammer up high enough that it would have left the cone at anything but it's highest point.

Not sure if I agree about the missing arrows. I mean, they could still miss while flying in a straight line. See the arrows and bolts missing / being dodged by Haley.

[JNinja]

When did Mr. Scruffy get out of the bag? He isn’t shown on panel from when Belkar puts him in with Bloodfeast in #1202 until the Order’s downtime in #1230. I know we’d notice if Bloodfeast had also escaped the bag because it’s hard to miss a Tyrranosaurus, but I wonder if it is possible for him to get out on his own (when the bag is working)

[Ornithologist]

Good on Serini for listening to her subordinates.

[Rogan]

Not sure if I agree about the missing arrows. I mean, they could still miss while flying in a straight line. See the arrows and bolts missing / being dodged by Haley.

I just noticed another thing, but this is hard to judge. There aren't enough panels where the projectiles are visible to be sure. But It seems like the arrows start to change direction as soon as they leave the AMF eye cone.
So maybe there is a wind wall or something like that up there?

[Fish]

Belkar's going to be in a panic if he can't get Bloodfeast out of the bag, and Serini is going to see a kindred spirit in him.

[ebarde]

I feel like she should have took out Haley first, since her flat footed AC would be terrible. Also, unless the legacy weapon would still work somehow, he has no ranged attacks.

[TRH]

I feel like she should have took out Haley first, since her flat footed AC would be terrible. Also, unless the legacy weapon would still work somehow, he has no ranged attacks.

She tried. I actually am not entirely sure how Haley's so good at dodging projectiles she can't even see, but eh.

[Rogan]

She tried. I actually am not entirely sure how Haley's so good at dodging projectiles she can't even see, but eh.

But she shot Roy first. Going for Haley first might have made her surprised and prevented the dodging we see now.

[Patterned_Pike]

Any chance Minrah is good with a bow? We know she's multi classed, and that she was a guard before. Maybe she is a fighter and thus has the requisite weapon proficiency to hit Sunny's eye. Even getting them to blink or briefly look away could give V enough time to cast passwall.

[JonahFalcon]

Er, did Durkon once AGAIN not have the proper cleric spells readied?

[DLcygnet]

She tried. I actually am not entirely sure how Haley's so good at dodging projectiles she can't even see, but eh.

Uncanny Dodge - "a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so."
Also, Evasion!

[Rogan]

Er, did Durkon once AGAIN not have the proper cleric spells readied?

He is inside of an AntiMagicField. What kind of spell should he have in this situation?

[Drake Halfmoon]

I think Serini is making a serious tactical error.

On one hand, targeting Haley makes sense because she is the de facto leader, and if she goes down, the Order falls into chaos. Also, she's the only one with a ranged attack that can actually reach her opponents.

On the other hand, Haley cannot see Sunny without visual aid, so she is not a real threat. It would make more sense to take out Durkon and Minrah since they have Darkvision. Otherwise, they'll be able to properly guide her into making a successful hit.

And now that Haley has proven herself to be a fairly difficult target, Serini is just wasting ammunition. If she doesn't change targets or try a new method of attack, the Order will find a way out, and the Halfling Rogue loses her advantage.

Of course, I'm not an experienced DnD player, so my assessment might be lacking.

Thoughts?

[TRH]

I think Serini is making a serious tactical error.

On one hand, targeting Haley makes sense because she is the de facto leader, and if she goes down, the Order falls into chaos. Also, she's the only one with a ranged attack that can actually reach her opponents.

On the other hand, Haley cannot see Sunny without visual aid, so she is not a real threat. It would make more sense to take out Durkon and Minrah since they have Darkvision. Otherwise, they'll be able to properly guide her into making a successful hit.

And now that Haley has proven herself to be a fairly difficult target, Serini is just wasting ammunition. If she doesn't change targets or try a new method of attack, the Order will find a way out, and the Halfling Rogue loses her advantage.

Of course, I'm not an experienced DnD player, so my assessment might be lacking.

Thoughts?

The best Minrah and Durkon can do is tell Haley which square the Beholder is in every round, at which point all of her attacks will still have a 50% miss chance. If both Minrah and Durkon go down, the threat ends, but it also ends if Haley drops. So it's a question of neutralizing one character or two. And although Haley is harder to hit than the other two, she is also far more likely to fail a save against poison, given Clerics' high fortitude saves and the Dwarven racial bonus.

In any case, although I'm guessing Rich would write it so that a direct hit on the center eye would at least temporarily suspend the AMF, by Rules as Written there would be no way to end that effect short of killing the Beholder. It would take a while for a single rogue to do that without sneak attack, weapon enchantments and fighting a 50% miss chance, while Serini simply needs to land one hit on Haley, in all likelihood. And It's not like she'll have Dexterity 30+ or anything, so even with Uncanny Dodge, her AC can't be too hard for a higher-level attacker to beat.

[Lvl45DM!]

This is one of the funniest strips in a while, and thats saying a fair bit.
"Good example Hayley!" will have me giggling for a while

[Blatt]

You kidding me?! All parties have a week's iron rations, a rope, a ten-foot pole AND A LANTERN!

Interesting to note Mr Scruffy is really just a ***** cat, possibly with class levels by now.

[Blatt]

{scrubbed}

[Dion]

He is inside of an AntiMagicField. What kind of spell should he have in this situation?

Anti-anti-magic-field.

It’s a thing.