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Thread: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer
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2021-08-12, 10:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer
Last edited by Peelee; 2021-08-12 at 10:18 AM.
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2021-08-12, 10:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer
With Star Wars, it's hard to care even about the stuff that's good (like Mandalorian and Clone Wars/Rebels) because it's all prequels and midquels. They need to bite the bullet, nut up and do something about the giant mess all of that is leading to. But the mainline movies are seemingly radioactive for the moment.
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2021-08-12, 11:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-08-13, 12:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer
I completely enjoyed this first episode.
Spoiler: The best partsHoward Stark was stealing every scene he appeared in. Him trying to figure out the control panel for the portal at the end was just my favorite.
"Turns out she wasn't teaching me German!"
Also his great chemistry with Carter. And Carter was a lot of fun! I enjoyed how upbeat and gleeful she was beating up every Nazi in her way. XD
And Red Skull summoning a Cthulhu-like entity ended for him about as well as I expected. Got a good laugh out of me.
I dunno, it felt like this was a better The First Avenger story than the actual First Avenger story we got. And not to disrespect the Captain America movie. I did enjoy that! I just felt like this one had more energy and love put into it.
One thing though that might change a lot of history-- no Winter Soldier since Bucky wasn't the one lost from the train. Does this mean Tony's parents live longer? How does the layer events of Winter Soldier play out for Hydra? Hmmm ..
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2021-08-13, 01:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer
Originally Posted by DigoDragon
SpoilerI dunno, it felt like this was a better The First Avenger story than the actual First Avenger story we got. And not to disrespect the Captain America movie. I did enjoy that! I just felt like this one had more energy and love put into it.SpoilerCan't disagree with this, although this episode had ten more years of MCU to draw upon.
But the first Cap movie was extremely bland. It felt very hastily thrown together, and it's enjoyable now mainly for knowing where all the characters will go next.
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2021-08-13, 01:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer
People are saying Fighting Words for The First Avenger movie. Yes it is not everyone's tea, but it is delightful tea if it is your brew.
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2021-08-13, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer
What I'm most excited for with these are the continuity and setting nods. First off being animated instead of live action means that representing some of the larger/more abstract baddies (like SG) is a lot cheaper. Second is getting more time with certain beloved actors, especially villains that got axed (like the upcoming Killmonger episode.) Sure they can't bring all the "right" voices back, but I expect to hear enough familiar to be pleasantly reminded.
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2021-08-14, 07:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer
SpoilerI dunno. I think it felt a bit too much like The First Avenger, despite there being absolutely no reason for that to happen. It isn't interested really in how things change when the super soldier isn't American. Captain America is bound up with American self image during and after the war, and changing the character's nationality whilst retaining all of the American self image surrounding it so that you can service the plot of a different movie designed for a different character doesn't really work.
Plus they didn't actually have the balls to write out Steve Rogers.
"What do the British do with a trained secret agent who is suddenly able to benchpress a truck?" would be a more interesting story than "Here's this story you already watched but faster and this time the ending is Hellboy not Return to Castle Wolfenstein"
It was fun, but it could have been more.
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2021-08-14, 09:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer
Originally Posted by GloatingSwine
SpoilerI think it felt a bit too much like The First Avenger, despite there being absolutely no reason for that to happen. It isn't interested really in how things change when the super soldier isn't American.SpoilerThis seems a little hard on a one-shot action story. It’s not an exploration of English identity in the context of Anglo-American wartime relations; it’s a story about super-people bashing a supervillain and his evil minions.
It does follow the original storyline closely in spots, and the Howling Commandos may not have been strictly necessary, but even so they’re background to Peggy’s story, which seems fine to me.
As for Steve Rogers, it answers the reasonable question of what would have happened to him if he hadn’t become Captain America. Flying a proto-Iron Man suit may be a bit out there, but it keeps him in the field and on Peggy’s radar, which again is important to her story.
Originally Posted by GloatingSwine
Spoiler"What do the British do with a trained secret agent who is suddenly able to benchpress a truck?"SpoilerFirst, they recognize that a successful secret agent is one who's able to stay secret, by virtue of being able to blend in and not attract attention to herself. As a six-foot-six woman built like Khal Drogo, she’s not exactly inconspicuous.
Sure, she could continue doing intelligence work in some office somewhere, but the Captain niche would be empty, and in the current war they really need it to be filled.Last edited by Palanan; 2021-08-14 at 09:08 PM.
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2021-08-15, 04:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer
SpoilerYeah, but you can do both. Just have Peggy be moved to SOE, dropped into occupied Europe somewhere, and Oh No! Hydra! and proceed from there with an original story.
As for Steve, they had the perfect opportunity to write him out when he gets shot at the start. If your premise is "what if someone else instead of Steve Rogers" stick to the premise.
Originally Posted by PalananSpoilerBritain had a network of partisans and saboteurs all over Europe, there were plenty of stories that could be told with a super-agent in SOE.
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2021-08-15, 02:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer
On the one hand I see where you're coming from. However, on the other hand, I saw benefits in having the story play out largely the same too:
1) It underscores that the Nazis (and as a result, Hydra even moreso) were (a) an existential threat and thus high priority for all of the Allies, and (b) that the US, contrary to some accounts, were not the only heroes of the war.
2) In a more cosmological sense, it shows how the timeline, even with alterations, still potentially tries to hit similar story beats - this indicates that even with the multiversal modifications, the timeline has specific fixed points that it tries to adhere to. For example,
Spoiler
- Erskine being murdered by a Hydra agent and only one super soldier getting made;
- Bucky's Howling Commandos being captured and the supersoldier proving themselves to their superiors by rescuing them;
- The train heist going awry leading to a main character's capture;
- Red Skull attempting to use the space stone in a hail mary attempt to win the war;
- The super soldier being removed from the WW2 timeline and presumed dead or lost until the present one.
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2021-08-15, 05:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer
But ultimately it doesn't do that, because they didn't change enough. The only thing that makes Captain Carter feel British is the accent and literally every other character is still American. The entire thing plays out as very much an "America wins the war" story, because that's what The First Avenger was and that's what's appropriate for a Captain America story. There's not even a suggestion in the piece that any other British people exist let alone are fighting the same war.
2) In a more cosmological sense, it shows how the timeline, even with alterations, still potentially tries to hit similar story beats - this indicates that even with the multiversal modifications, the timeline has specific fixed points that it tries to adhere to.
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2021-08-15, 07:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer
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2021-08-16, 02:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer
In principle, but only Dum Dum has relevant dialogue so you'd never know it. It's hard to argue they played a "bigger role" really, since their role is exactly the same "exist in the background" that it was in TFA they just do it for a proportionally greater part of the runtime.
Last edited by GloatingSwine; 2021-08-16 at 02:02 AM.
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2021-08-16, 03:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer
They barely featured in the climax at all in the movie, which was a showdown between Steve Rogers and Red Skull. Here, Captain Carter goes after Red Skull while they go to save Steve and the Stomper from the rest of Hydra. This proves to be the right move as Carter ends up needing the Stomper's help to defeat
Spoilerwhatever that thing was (Shuma-Gorath?) that Schmidt summoned with the Space Stone.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-08-16, 04:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer
Yeah, but again since only the American one has a speaking part, there's literally nothing to suggest that they're a multinational group in either version.
It's still "America won the war".
And again, that's fine for a Captain America story but they took the America out of Captain America and didn't change anything else. So it doesn't work right. They could, and should, have had the same "save the world from Hydra" outcome but actually followed through on the change they made with the What If premise.
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2021-08-16, 07:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer
The MCU is always super US centric. It's easier to learn to live with it.
Spoiler
It's weird that Peggy is catapulted forward in time in completely different circumstances.
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2021-08-16, 07:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer
The What if premise is what will determine how close the alternate timeline sticks to the original one. In Loki we saw how various variations created more or less different variants---from main timelike Loki to TV series Loki, who are almost the same person, to Sylvie, who is fundamentally different albeit still being Loki, not to mention Lokigator.
Personally, all I care is about the What If premise being an excuse for interesting storytelling, and so far I'm very pleased. This is still the MCU, and I found it interesting that a Captain America variant has the same main beats with a different flavour, rather than Captain Carter becoming an Alan Moore or a Mike Mignola style wartime hero story."Like the old proverb says, if one sees something not right, one must draw out his sword to intervene"
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2021-08-16, 11:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer
I still don't get this complaint. Peggy was far more successful in the role than Steve ever was:
SpoilerShe actually killed Erskine's assassin before he could flee the base, got injected with all three vials of the original formula which prevented Red Skull from obtaining one, allowed the Allies to recover the cube for most of the runtime, and stopped Hydra getting its hands on the Winter Soldier which means her Earth's history diverged significantly after she got displaced. Showing her to be not just equivalent but superior to the mainline Cap is as far from America-centric as they can get within this framework. It's cause for celebration, not grousing.
As for the events of the show itself - the Super Soldier project is set in the USA because it's a thematic mirror of the Manhattan Project, and the campaigns by the Super Soldier once they get going are set in Germany. Showing other European nations, or even just the UK, doesn't make sense with that premise, and wouldn't add anything even if they could. A more prominent role for the Howling Commandos this version was plenty.
I know it wasn't needed but I wish they had been able to explain that a bit more. It seems to have worked like the Quantum Realm where more time passes outside.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-08-16, 11:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer
The complaint is that it's the wrong role!
She's British. She should be presented as an actually British character, not an American character with a British accent and a union flag painted on.
As for the events of the show itself - the Super Soldier project is set in the USA because it's a thematic mirror of the Manhattan Project, and the campaigns by the Super Soldier once they get going are set in Germany. Showing other European nations, or even just the UK, doesn't make sense with that premise, and wouldn't add anything even if they could. A more prominent role for the Howling Commandos this version was plenty.
It can contain the same conflict with Hydra, but it needs to no longer be presented as functionally identical to a Captain America story.
Because Britain is not ****ing America!
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2021-08-16, 11:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer
She IS working with the SOE. Her orders were to work with Howard Stark on the Super Soldier project, which she is doing. Britain doesn't have a Howard Stark.
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2021-08-16, 11:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer
Originally Posted by GloatingSwine
And again, that's fine for a Captain America story but they took the America out of Captain America and didn't change anything else.
Originally Posted by GloatingSwine
And when she's rejected by the US for being the wrong person she should be recalled to Britain, given an SOE assignment behind enemy lines, and the plot should proceed from there.
It can contain the same conflict with Hydra, but it needs to no longer be presented as functionally identical to a Captain America story.
Do you just want a cutscene where she’s given orders by a British general, and goes on to punch Hydra goons as normal? If not, then what?
It’s just not clear what you do want to see, as opposed to what you don’t.
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2021-08-16, 11:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer
She IS working with the SOE. Her orders were to work with Howard Stark on the Super Soldier project, which she is doing. Britain doesn't have a Howard Stark.
Like that's in the story already. The project is considered a failure and Peggy is rejected. From that point it can completely diverge from The First Avenger and should have.
Take on a new role based in the way British media represents Britain's contribution to the war in a way that a supersoldier would be relevant to. Less Captain America, more Alastair MacLean. It's not like there isn't a lot of it to draw on, even in comic form. Look at what British national attitudes and self image were at the time, and use that for a story.
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2021-08-16, 12:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer
She's specifically fighting Hydra. That means raiding bases armed with sci-fi laser cannons/flamethrower tanks and punching. If you want something that isn't that, you need to be specific about what that is and why it would be better than what we got. Guns of Navarone definitely ain't it.
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2021-08-16, 12:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer
When did I say that she shouldn't be fighting Hydra and all their wierd tech?
I didn't.
I said that the attitude and self image she represented should be British not American.
There is a vast gulf of difference between those things, and a British super soldier should not just be "Captain America but for some reason there's a union flag now".
Get rid of Steve, have him die when he's shot at the start, get rid of Stark, he's done his bit, have Peggy recalled to Britain and put into service in a way that gets her into Europe and into conflict with Hydra, drawing on the way British media represented British attitudes to war and national image in WWII.
Stop thinking that everyone who matters is American!
Write a Captain Carter story not a Captain America story!Last edited by GloatingSwine; 2021-08-16 at 12:21 PM.
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2021-08-16, 12:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer
I'm still not clear on why these can't be the same thing. "British attitude and self-image" tell me nothing, other than that you don't appear to think Sharon Carter displayed these things. Without that understanding, we'll just keep going in circles and should probably stop here.
I don't know where this came from at all There are many non-American characters that matter in this story, the Commandos, Erskine, Carter herself, etc.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-08-16, 01:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer
No, she didn't, because she's just in a Captain America story as Captain America representing exactly the same things Captain America is supposed to. Where she's the only allegedly non-American character who even gets a speaking role, and the existence of other countries fighting the war is not even acknowledged.
No, not by the Howling Commandos because again, only the American gets to speak!
The first step would be to reverse the ratio of Americans to everyone else as speaking characters. You can have one. Maximum.
The general tone would be someone in a desperate situation doing their best, which would be good for Peggy as she was at the start of the story because she'd been rejected by her CO. It would be Peggy and some supporting characters, behind enemy lines, outmatched and overwhelmed by Hydra superscience and winning through by pluck and determination at great personal cost, because that's what you get from British war stories.
It lets you end in the same place, with Peggy sucked into the portal and whoever was with her having a last stand, it lets you fight the same people but you're not doing it as a "America stronk" story.
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2021-08-16, 01:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer
Isn't Sharon Carter the focus of the story?
I've not seen the episode in question, but this sounds like a dreadfully common complaint with Americans writing British characters: All they have done is slap an accent on the character, then done everything else as an American.
There are lots of differences, starting with the way we use English (while I was out in the 'States I had an amusing discussion with the car rental company because I'd accidentally locked the keys in the boot. Any UK person would know exactly what I meant, but the poor guy on the other end of the line was getting increasingly confused).
For sure, slapping an accent on to the character (provided you get the right accent, of course) is a start, and for a side character probably enough, but the main character? What is the point of making her British if she is functionally the same as an American?
In that case, why not just go for "What If Captain America was a Woman"?Last edited by Manga Shoggoth; 2021-08-16 at 01:07 PM.
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2021-08-16, 01:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer
I guess this is something of a tangent, but I thought it was distinctly odd that she ended up with the exact same shield (minus the paint job) that Steve would have ended up with. Especially since it was Howard that gave it to her; Steve went with that shield because he’d noticed it out of sight when Howard was trying to sell him on other, more complicated models. Since Howard is shoving it at her anyway, why’d he pick the prototype?
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2021-08-16, 01:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer
Your entire complaint is "the only difference is slapping an accent on people" to make them British, then you share an example story where the ONLY thing defining you as british is calling the trunk of a car a boot instead of a trunk. Which, frankly, is just slapping "an accent" or different idioms on someone. So... yeah.
You and GloatingSwine have the same problem. You are complaining about Peggy (not Sharon) Carter being "too american" and want them to tell the story with "British attitude and self-image" but provide ABSOLUTELY no detail on what the hell that means.
I've seen lots of British fiction and stories set in WWII. I haven't the foggiest what GloatingSwine is looking for. At all. So far, all he's given any detail on is wanting most of the supporting cast to be british instead of American. *shrug* whoopdie-doo.