Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer

[GloatingSwine]

I guess this is something of a tangent, but I thought it was distinctly odd that she ended up with the exact same shield (minus the paint job) that Steve would have ended up with. Especially since it was Howard that gave it to her; Steve went with that shield because he’d noticed it out of sight when Howard was trying to sell him on other, more complicated models. Since Howard is shoving it at her anyway, why’d he pick the prototype?

And it's not like there's a national representation of the spirit of Britain as a nation who has a shield as part of her regalia they could use or anything...

Oh wait.

You and GloatingSwine have the same problem. You are complaining about Peggy (not Sharon) Carter being "too american" and want them to tell the story with "British attitude and self-image" but provide ABSOLUTELY no detail on what the hell that means.

Educating you about nations beyond your own is not our job. And yes, I have repeatedly talked about the sort of story that would do that. A story of a last desperate stand because that is the British experience of WWII. Dunkirk and the Blitz, standing alone until the yanks got off their arses, doing the best they could with no resources and not ever even conceiving of just being able to smash through the problem with superior weapons and power because we didn't have those.

[theNater]

I guess this is something of a tangent, but I thought it was distinctly odd that she ended up with the exact same shield (minus the paint job) that Steve would have ended up with. Especially since it was Howard that gave it to her; Steve went with that shield because he’d noticed it out of sight when Howard was trying to sell him on other, more complicated models. Since Howard is shoving it at her anyway, why’d he pick the prototype?

This, I think, is the clearest example of the problem here. By the point Rogers was given the shield, he already had a significant history of using shields. Stark explicitly said he was ready with shield options because of that history.

Here, Carter has no such history. Her particular skill focus seems to have been handguns, so it would make sense for Stark to provide her one or more interestingly tricked-out handguns. Changes like that would help turn it from "what if Carter was in Rogers' place" to "what if Carter got the supersoldier serum."

[Psyren]

Didn't the original have the SSR working in London with MI6 to locate Hydra's factories? And Steve snubbing an American medal presentation ceremony in order to be there and provide them the necessary intel, which he received while rescuing the Howling Commandos? But I suppose that doesn't fit with the america-exclusive viewpoint some believe the movie has.

This, I think, is the clearest example of the problem here. By the point Rogers was given the shield, he already had a significant history of using shields. Stark explicitly said he was ready with shield options because of that history.

Not quite what Howard said. He said that Steve was attached to that shape, and he came up with some options - but realistically, a flat disc was all they could have made from vibranium back then anyway, and that the "prototype" used up all they had. What more logical form could there be for that than a hand-held shield? So presenting Carter with one is not a huge leap. It's not like they could have made bullets.

[Manga Shoggoth]

You and GloatingSwine have the same problem. You are complaining about Peggy (not Sharon) Carter being "too american" and want them to tell the story with "British attitude and self-image" but provide ABSOLUTELY no detail on what the hell that means.

I've seen lots of British fiction and stories set in WWII. I haven't the foggiest what GloatingSwine is looking for. At all. So far, all he's given any detail on is wanting most of the supporting cast to be british instead of American. *shrug* whoopdie-doo.

(a) Psyren wanted an example, and I gave the starting point and an example. I'm not going to produce a 5000 word essay - If you can't see beyond that, well...

(b) No, he isn't. At least as far as I can see He is complaining because the MAIN CHARACTER is supposed to be British, and beyond the accent she is showing no signs of being British or needing to be British.

[Rodin]

The What if premise is what will determine how close the alternate timeline sticks to the original one. In Loki we saw how various variations created more or less different variants---from main timelike Loki to TV series Loki, who are almost the same person, to Sylvie, who is fundamentally different albeit still being Loki, not to mention Lokigator.

Personally, all I care is about the What If premise being an excuse for interesting storytelling, and so far I'm very pleased. This is still the MCU, and I found it interesting that a Captain America variant has the same main beats with a different flavour, rather than Captain Carter becoming an Alan Moore or a Mike Mignola style wartime hero story.

I felt like they stuck a bit too close. There's an interesting story with Steve not becoming the super soldier, but instead of telling that story they went with "Steve gets to be super in a different way". We didn't need to see the train again or rescue the soldiers from the Hydra facility again. We've seen that, and re-telling it with Captain Carter didn't add anything to the story. Take the character and do something different.

Ultimately the problem is the 30 minute run time. They needed to cover the entire plot of a Marvel film in 30 minutes, and that left precious little time to explore interesting ideas.

Still, it was enjoyable enough for what it was and I'm looking forward to the next episode. My expectations for a series of 30 minute short films are considerably lower than those for a movie or a full TV series.

[theNater]

Not quite what Howard said. He said that Steve was attached to that shape...

Upon review, he says neither. He says "I hear you're kind of attached" and pats Steve's old shield twice. Steve then says "It's handier than you might think", before Howard begins to show him the options, which are a variety of differently-shaped shields.

It is technically left up to the viewer to determine whether Steve is attached to the functionality of shields, or to a specific shape that is different from the shape he ends up with.

...a flat disc was all they could have made from vibranium back then anyway, and that the "prototype" used up all they had. What more logical form could there be for that than a hand-held shield? So presenting Carter with one is not a huge leap. It's not like they could have made bullets.

Why present Carter with the vibranium at all? Howard wasn't planning on outfitting Steve with it; he's more enthusiastic about the shield that's been fitted with electrical relays. There's no law that says super soldiers have to have vibranium equipment.

[Psyren]

Upon review, he says neither. He says "I hear you're kind of attached" and pats Steve's old shield twice. Steve then says "It's handier than you might think", before Howard begins to show him the options, which are a variety of differently-shaped shields.

Yeah, now read the rest. Howard says his job is "making sure you and your men do not get killed." He goes on to say that the "prototype" used up "all the vibranium we've got."

So again I ask you, what else was he supposed to have made with that? There wasn't enough of it for a suit. A weapon would have been superfluous given that regular bullets and explosives worked on Hydra just fine, and wouldn't have protected them in any event. So presenting both Steve and Sharon with a shield is purely logical.

Why present Carter with the vibranium at all? Howard wasn't planning on outfitting Steve with it; he's more enthusiastic about the shield that's been fitted with electrical relays. There's no law that says super soldiers have to have vibranium equipment.

See above about Howard's description of his job.

[Wintermoot]

(a) Psyren wanted an example, and I gave the starting point and an example. I'm not going to produce a 5000 word essay - If you can't see beyond that, well...

(b) No, he isn't. At least as far as I can see He is complaining because the MAIN CHARACTER is supposed to be British, and beyond the accent she is showing no signs of being British or needing to be British.

*rolls eyes* All I asked for was what "with a british attitude" means, but whatever. You are officially complaining for the sake of complaining then.

I'm out.

[GloatingSwine]

*rolls eyes* All I asked for was what "with a british attitude" means, but whatever. You are officially complaining for the sake of complaining then.

I'm out.

Okay, so here's a direct show example.

In this they replicate the scene at the start of Avengers where Cap punches a heavy bag across the room out of frustration. That's an American response, working out the frustration, using up the energy.

It's not a British response. Certainly not in the 1940s. The British response is to keep the stiff upper lip, to keep calm and carry on. And doing that in the face of seemingly overwhelming enemy superiority.

And a British style war story is categorically not one where the protagonist is fighting from a superior position. It's not a story where the first time you're in a bit of trouble the cavalry comes with an invincible tankbusting robot and you plough through all resistance because you're the strong one.

A British style war story is where desperate underdogs hang on to the last and usually win out in the end.

That's why I've repeatedly talked about doing it as a behind enemy lines story, because that lets you do that setup. A stronger enemy, no backup coming, and the highest possible stakes but you keep the stiff upper lip and carry on and do it anyway.

This attitude needs to be there. It wasn't.

[Sapphire Guard]

Does kind of call into question the premise if they're not actually going to put any thought into how the 'what if' changes the existing story and just follow the same beats with the justifications removed.

Ex. Why is she wearing a Union Jack flag if she's no longer a propaganda tool?

[GloatingSwine]

Does kind of call into question the premise if they're not actually going to put any thought into how the 'what if' changes the existing story and just follow the same beats with the justifications removed.

As far as I've heard it's literally just this one out of at least the first three that does it this way, the next two don't just reprise one of the movies but with a different accent.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Okay, so here's a direct show example.

In this they replicate the scene at the start of Avengers where Cap punches a heavy bag across the room out of frustration. That's an American response, working out the frustration, using up the energy.

It's not a British response. Certainly not in the 1940s. The British response is to keep the stiff upper lip, to keep calm and carry on. And doing that in the face of seemingly overwhelming enemy superiority.

And a British style war story is categorically not one where the protagonist is fighting from a superior position. It's not a story where the first time you're in a bit of trouble the cavalry comes with an invincible tankbusting robot and you plough through all resistance because you're the strong one.

A British style war story is where desperate underdogs hang on to the last and usually win out in the end.

That's why I've repeatedly talked about doing it as a behind enemy lines story, because that lets you do that setup. A stronger enemy, no backup coming, and the highest possible stakes but you keep the stiff upper lip and carry on and do it anyway.

This attitude needs to be there. It wasn't.

For the sake of not making it feel like you're yelling into a void, at least one person understands what your critique is.

[theNater]

Yeah, now read the rest.

Wait, are you just working off a script? 'Cause I'm rewatching the scene, which offers up a lot of information that would not be visible in a script.

[Psyren]

Wait, are you just working off a script? 'Cause I'm rewatching the scene, which offers up a lot of information that would not be visible in a script.

This particular gripe was about why Howard would make a shield out of vibranium for Cpt Carter when she wasn't part of the USO show like Steve was. I was citing First Avenger to ask the simple counter-question of what the hell else useful he could have made with a lump of vibranium only big enough to make a shield.

*rolls eyes* All I asked for was what "with a british attitude" means, but whatever. You are officially complaining for the sake of complaining then.

I'm out.

Yeah that. And saying "a British attitude means not punching a punching bag" is beyond ridiculous.

[theNater]

This particular gripe was about why Howard would make a shield out of vibranium for Cpt Carter when she wasn't part of the USO show like Steve was. I was citing First Avenger to ask the simple counter-question of what the hell else useful he could have made with a lump of vibranium only big enough to make a shield.

The mistaken assumption here is that Howard would consider a vibranium shield useful. The Howard we met in First Avenger didn't. That, as much as anything, is what he means when he calls it a prototype; he intends to keep experimenting with it until he can make it useful according to what he thinks of as useful.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

The mistaken assumption here is that Howard would consider a vibranium shield useful. The Howard we met in First Avenger didn't.

Very much this. If he'd handed her a shield that shot missiles or had built-in radar, that would have been more believable.

[Psyren]

The mistaken assumption here is that Howard would consider a vibranium shield useful.

Why wouldn't he? He knows the properties of vibranium, at least the bulletproof and lightness ones, as shown in FA.

Very much this. If he'd handed her a shield that shot missiles or had built-in radar, that would have been more believable.

Why not a unicorn and the elder wand too, while we're pulling things out of our post- I mean, thin air?

[Peelee]

People are saying Fighting Words for The First Avenger movie. Yes it is not everyone's tea, but it is delightful tea if it is your brew.

Seconded. The First Avenger was easily the best MCU movie I've seen, largely because it toned down a lot of (what I see as) the ridiculousness of other MCU movies.

Spoiler

Show

I dunno. I think it felt a bit too much like The First Avenger, despite there being absolutely no reason for that to happen. It isn't interested really in how things change when the super soldier isn't American. Captain America is bound up with American self image during and after the war, and changing the character's nationality whilst retaining all of the American self image surrounding it so that you can service the plot of a different movie designed for a different character doesn't really work.

Plus they didn't actually have the balls to write out Steve Rogers.

"What do the British do with a trained secret agent who is suddenly able to benchpress a truck?" would be a more interesting story than "Here's this story you already watched but faster and this time the ending is Hellboy not Return to Castle Wolfenstein"

It was fun, but it could have been more.

Wholly agree with you on pretty much every point there. A Captain Britain would have been cool to see instead of a reskinned Captain America.

And as to what exactly that means... gonna cop out and hide behind the Stewart test here. I appreciate what makes Todd Margaret brilliant, even if I couldn't write that script myself.

On the one hand I see where you're coming from. However, on the other hand, I saw benefits in having the story play out largely the same too:

While I am absolutely not the target audience, if I watch a show called "What If...?", with the understanding that the ellipses can be generically completed as "what if things were different", then I would not be terribly thrilled if things ended up staying pretty well the same. Divergences creating further divergences are interesting to me. A branch shooting off only to curve right back to the main trunk isn't. I don't like the idea of fixed points in time. Character agency should drastically change things.

But, again, I'm not the target audience. And frankly, so long as the people who are enjoy it, that's pretty great. Just wanted to toss out my opinion.

[Psyren]

While I'm not against any sort of drastic changes, part of the fun of What If (in my mind anyway) is exploring attributes of the characters that can be considered fundamental aspects of their identity. So a Steve Rogers who never became a supersoldier but was still offered an opportunity to fight Hydra using science - the Stomper instead of a serum in this case - would still take it. And Peggy would still be attracted to him since she cares about who he is moreso than what the serum did to him. So having constants like that keeps the story interesting without it diverging too far into not needing

And again, I'd argue that a world in which Peggy was the one sent forward in time, but in which she had defeated Hydra without losing either Bucky or Steve and without Red Skull becoming the Soul Stone's guardian, would be drastically different from the MCU we know. But those major differences aren't the ones that matter for the show we see at the end of the day.

(I'm not saying that exploring those differences wouldn't be interesting - I expect tie-in novels or comics to pop up, if not good old fashioned fan-fiction, for those that truly capture fan interest - but the Disney+ show will be plenty happy keeping it simpler/safer for the expensive animated stuff.)

[Peelee]

While I'm not against any sort of drastic changes, part of the fun of What If (in my mind anyway) is exploring attributes of the characters that can be considered fundamental aspects of their identity. So a Steve Rogers who never became a supersoldier but was still offered an opportunity to fight Hydra using science - the Stomper instead of a serum in this case - would still take it. And Peggy would still be attracted to him since she cares about who he is moreso than what the serum did to him. So having constants like that keeps the story interesting without it diverging too far into not needing

And again, I'd argue that a world in which Peggy was the one sent forward in time, but in which she had defeated Hydra without losing either Bucky or Steve and without Red Skull becoming the Soul Stone's guardian, would be drastically different from ours. But those major differences aren't the ones that matter for the show we see at the end of the day.

On the one hand, i can see the appeal here. On the other hand... C'mon man, we've all seen The First Avenger. There should be zero doubts in anyone's minds that Steve Roger's would take any active combat role to fight the Nazis, even without the serum or a pseudo-Iron-Man suit.

ETA: Actually, that's another reason TFA fires on all cylinders for me. Roger's is just a 100%, unabashedly good person, and I like that about him.

[Talakeal]

I think a big problem here is that they need to rewrite an entire ~2 hour movie into a ~20 minute show.

[theNater]

Why wouldn't he?

It doesn't matter. We can theorize about it, but the simple fact is that he doesn't, as you can see for yourself. Note the "useful" shields he has on top have gadgets and gizmos built into them, even though we never get a description of what they do.

[Psyren]

It doesn't matter. We can theorize about it, but the simple fact is that he doesn't, as you can see for yourself. Note the "useful" shields he has on top have gadgets and gizmos built into them, even though we never get a description of what they do.

The ones not made of vibranium and therefore inherently less useful you mean?

[Peelee]

The ones not made of vibranium and therefore inherently less useful you mean?

Stark definitely thought it was useful. When Steve asked about it, he touted its properties. When Steve asked why it wasn't standard issue, Stark responded not that it wasn't useful, but that the quantity was far too limited. Stark absolutely thought it was useful, you're 100% right on that.

However, when Steve first picked it up, Stark tried to shoot it down. "No no no." He rejected it as a potential candidate for Steve's gear initially, until prompted by Steve. It was not under consideration by Stark.

All that being said, given how other events played out similarly, it's hardly a stretch to assume that Carter did the same thing.

[theNater]

The ones not made of vibranium and therefore inherently less useful you mean?

Their actual usefulness is irrelevant. What matters is Howard's opinion. Sometimes fictional characters are wrong about things.

Stark definitely thought it was useful. When Steve asked about it, he touted its properties. When Steve asked why it wasn't standard issue, Stark responded not that it wasn't useful, but that the quantity was far too limited. Stark absolutely thought it was useful, you're 100% right on that.

However, when Steve first picked it up, Stark tried to shoot it down. "No no no." He rejected it as a potential candidate for Steve's gear initially, until prompted by Steve. It was not under consideration by Stark.

Yeah, if we're willing to get a little nuanced, we can say Stark thought that, despite its interesting properties, it was not useful enough, relative to the other shields he had available.

All that being said, given how other events played out similarly, it's hardly a stretch to assume that Carter did the same thing.

If you watch her, you can tell she doesn't know what the shield is when he first plunks it down. This isn't something she picked out earlier.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

If you watch her, you can tell she doesn't know what the shield is when he first plunks it down. This isn't something she picked out earlier.

Very much this. She’s not impressed with it until she starts using it.

If they were going to insist on Stark giving her the shield, a more believable chain of events would have been having him hand her one of the fancy ones, then a brief montage of them getting smashed, jamming up, or otherwise being shown as unsuitable until finally we come to the vibranium shield that does none of those things.

(That said, I like your handgun idea better Nater. Peggy definitely seems like more of a shoot her problems in the face sort.)

[Ramza00]

Does kind of call into question the premise if they're not actually going to put any thought into how the 'what if' changes the existing story and just follow the same beats with the justifications removed.

Ex. Why is she wearing a Union Jack flag if she's no longer a propaganda tool?

We know from the trailers and how the episode ends that Carter is going to be in at least 1 additional What If. So no I do not think we can be confident yet.

[Psyren]

Stark definitely thought it was useful. When Steve asked about it, he touted its properties. When Steve asked why it wasn't standard issue, Stark responded not that it wasn't useful, but that the quantity was far too limited. Stark absolutely thought it was useful, you're 100% right on that.

However, when Steve first picked it up, Stark tried to shoot it down. "No no no." He rejected it as a potential candidate for Steve's gear initially, until prompted by Steve. It was not under consideration by Stark.

All that being said, given how other events played out similarly, it's hardly a stretch to assume that Carter did the same thing.

"Shot it down" is too strong for what actually happened there. All he said was "no no, that's just a prototype" - i.e. his hesitation came from it being untested, not necessarily from thinking it inferior or even equal to the others.

Their actual usefulness is irrelevant. What matters is Howard's opinion. Sometimes fictional characters are wrong about things.

And sometimes they're right. He knows the properties of vibranium.

Yeah, if we're willing to get a little nuanced, we can say Stark thought that, despite its interesting properties, it was not useful enough, relative to the other shields he had available.

See response to Peelee.

If you watch her, you can tell she doesn't know what the shield is when he first plunks it down. This isn't something she picked out earlier.

Correct, she didn't - but he did. And in fact, that scene displays the reason he branded it - they were planning to do the USO show tour thing with her too. (No doubt their delay was figuring out how to retool her role as more than one of the background chorus girls.)

And quite honestly, you need to cut them some slack - they were cramming a 2 hour movie down into a 24 minute episode. Scenes of her touring the SSR lab with Howard and rejecting various devices/designs are just plain unnecessary when Howard can just as easily start with the thing we know she's going to end up with anyway.

[Starbuck_II]

Okay, so here's a direct show example.

In this they replicate the scene at the start of Avengers where Cap punches a heavy bag across the room out of frustration. That's an American response, working out the frustration, using up the energy.

It's not a British response. Certainly not in the 1940s. The British response is to keep the stiff upper lip, to keep calm and carry on. And doing that in the face of seemingly overwhelming enemy superiority.

And a British style war story is categorically not one where the protagonist is fighting from a superior position. It's not a story where the first time you're in a bit of trouble the cavalry comes with an invincible tankbusting robot and you plough through all resistance because you're the strong one.

A British style war story is where desperate underdogs hang on to the last and usually win out in the end.

That's why I've repeatedly talked about doing it as a behind enemy lines story, because that lets you do that setup. A stronger enemy, no backup coming, and the highest possible stakes but you keep the stiff upper lip and carry on and do it anyway.

This attitude needs to be there. It wasn't.

Interesting critique:
So, you see American - cavalry comes with an invincible tankbusting robot and you plough through all resistance because you're the strong one.
While British: Holding out till enemy makes a mistake or you discover a weakness that can pulls out a victory.

As an aside:
So, Rogue 1 Star Wars movie would be closer to British war style?

[Peelee]

"Shot it down" is too strong for what actually happened there. All he said was "no no, that's just a prototype" - i.e. his hesitation came from it being untested, not necessarily from thinking it inferior or even equal to the others.

I can agree with that, yeah.