Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer

[Ramza00]

So when are we going to get a What If where Wanda as a child watched "Muppets VHS / DVDs"

And thus the hex after Endgame was an X-Men movie with Muppets, with James Marsden and Wanda as the only human characters. Followed by No, More Mutants that occurs after Wanda battles an Agatha Muppets.

[GloatingSwine]

Interesting critique:
So, you see American - cavalry comes with an invincible tankbusting robot and you plough through all resistance because you're the strong one.
While British: Holding out till enemy makes a mistake or you discover a weakness that can pulls out a victory.

As an aside:
So, Rogue 1 Star Wars movie would be closer to British war style?

That's a reasonable summary.

"The cavalry arrives" is a pretty solid American trope, really. I mean it's basically from one of the great genres of American mythmaking, the western.

The outstanding examples of mythmaking in British military cinema are based on events where there was never a cavalry to come (Zulu, A Bridge too Far, The Cruel Sea, that sort of thing). Often stories where it's all gone horribly wrong somehow, and someone has to rise to the occasion and the best you get out of it is that some of you didn't die.

[Peelee]

Often stories where it's all gone horribly wrong somehow, and someone has to rise to the occasion and the best you get out of it is that some of you didn't die.

Oh hey a perfect summary of Bridge On the River Kwai.

[theNater]

Peggy definitely seems like more of a shoot her problems in the face sort.

This is exactly the point. A superheroes' gear isn't a mechanics issue, because they'll win the day with whatever gear they use. It's a characterization issue.

Steve's first instinct in a crisis is to grab a shield. We see this with the garbage can lid and the car door. So it's natural that he would end up with a shield.

Peggy's first instinct in a crisis is to grab a handgun. That's what she does when confronting the Hydra saboteur. So when she ends up with a shield it feels less like a natural step for her character and more like she's been dropped into a Steve-shaped hole in the plot.

[JadedDM]

Promo for Episode 2 dropped:

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[Palanan]

Originally Posted by JadedDM
Promo for Episode 2 dropped:

About 95% of that we've seen before...but I have to admit, the very thematic logo at the end gave me a good chuckle.

The Guardians are my very least favorite corner of the MCU, but T'Challa is right at the top, so we'll see how the combination fares. Here's hoping alternate T'Challa doesn't have any Celestials in his immediate family tree.

[Ramza00]

About 95% of that we've seen before...but I have to admit, the very thematic logo at the end gave me a good chuckle.

The Guardians are my very least favorite corner of the MCU, but T'Challa is right at the top, so we'll see how the combination fares. Here's hoping alternate T'Challa doesn't have any Celestials in his immediate family tree.

Okay what is your favorite corner of the MCU? I ask for Guardians is my jam (I do have complaints) and I am curious what is a viewpoint 180 or perhaps a different number from mine.

[Palanan]

My top three MCU movies are probably Iron Man 1, Avengers 1, and Spider-Man: Homecoming, with Black Panther and Winter Soldier very close behind.

[Sapphire Guard]

Eh... honestly the cavalry arrives multiple times through Rogue One. Not really.

[Psyren]

That's a reasonable summary.

"The cavalry arrives" is a pretty solid American trope, really. I mean it's basically from one of the great genres of American mythmaking, the western.

The outstanding examples of mythmaking in British military cinema are based on events where there was never a cavalry to come (Zulu, A Bridge too Far, The Cruel Sea, that sort of thing). Often stories where it's all gone horribly wrong somehow, and someone has to rise to the occasion and the best you get out of it is that some of you didn't die.

Neither this episode nor FA are about the cavalry arriving to save the protagonists though, they are the cavalry. Which in fact makes this closer to another famous British war film, The Wild Geese. Though not British enough perhaps?

I just find the idea that denying a character's nationality or believing them somehow to be a betrayal because they make use of certain tropes to be absurd.

Eh... honestly the cavalry arrives multiple times through Rogue One. Not really.

Indeed - along with, once again, the cast themselves being the cavalry.

This is exactly the point. A superheroes' gear isn't a mechanics issue, because they'll win the day with whatever gear they use. It's a characterization issue.

Steve's first instinct in a crisis is to grab a shield. We see this with the garbage can lid and the car door. So it's natural that he would end up with a shield.

Peggy's first instinct in a crisis is to grab a handgun. That's what she does when confronting the Hydra saboteur. So when she ends up with a shield it feels less like a natural step for her character and more like she's been dropped into a Steve-shaped hole in the plot.

Howard trying to make a gun out of a lump of vibranium would be ridiculous. Even if he could somehow fashion the hardest metal on earth into something with moving parts, throwing away such a valuable material on bullets would be an extravagant waste, and using regular bullets would utterly defeat the device's purpose. A bulletproof shield meanwhile just makes sense. Howard Stark is not an idiot.

Above is the Watsonian reasoning. The Doylist reasoning is that we know she's going to end up with the shield, they have less than a quarter of the runtime of the original to give her the shield, and so any dithering on the subject is a foolish waste of time that serves no purpose.

So by both forms of logic, it's reasonable for Howard to walk up and hand her the shield, end of.

Okay what is your favorite corner of the MCU? I ask for Guardians is my jam (I do have complaints) and I am curious what is a viewpoint 180 or perhaps a different number from mine.

Guardians is honestly my least favorite, I really dislike Starlord's childishness (yes I know that's the point of the character) and while I quite like Gamora a lot of her scenes end up leading back to him which taints her by association. Drax was fine in the original but his unnecessary meanness towards Mantis and then the lack of anything for him to do later (and certainly nothing at all to do now that Thanos is dead). Rocket and Groot are great, though the latter got downgraded to team mascot that keeps the kiddies engaged. I am curious to see what role Thor will play though, and resetting Gamora and Starlord's relationship, while inevitably giving Starlord more screentime, will at least result in a deeper examination of who Gamora is without Thanos looming over her head so I'm interested in that.

For me the favorites are the team-up movies for their banter and the cast bouncing off each other I suppose. Civil War is the one I keep coming back to most repeatedly.

[Wintermoot]

Okay what is your favorite corner of the MCU? I ask for Guardians is my jam (I do have complaints) and I am curious what is a viewpoint 180 or perhaps a different number from mine.

CA: Civil War, Avengers: Infinity War and Avengers Endgame: are 'the trilogy' that defined MCU to me. So I have them on their own classification.

Captain America First Avenger is, and probably always will be, top of the list.

After that there's a deep middle tier. Great, but problematic movies. Probably Spideman: Homecoming, Iron man 1, and Dr Strange are at the top of the list, followed by Antman and the GoG movies.

I will say that Avengers, Avengers Age of Ultron, Iron man 2 an Iron man 3 are the bottom of my list. Terrible movies.

[theNater]

The Doylist reasoning is that we know she's going to end up with the shield...

Doylist perspective only: Why is she going to end up with the shield? Why is that important to the story? Why is that good writing?

[Psyren]

Doylist perspective only: Why is she going to end up with the shield? Why is that important to the story? Why is that good writing?

Doylist only: It's part of the character's brand. Skipping that would be like having another Wolverine with no claws, or another Deadpool with no swords, or a Spiderman who never wears a mask.

As far as the writing, it fits with both her character and Howard's. She's as much inspirational symbol as hero, hence him basing her gear on her planned USO uniform. This is drifting back towards Watsonian, but keeping that symbol from being riddled with bullets is important, and the most bullet-proof and portable metal on the planet does that.

In both versions of the story, Howard had the idea to craft a vibranium shield, but in this version he clearly moved beyond the prototype phase before approaching her. Why that is is unimportant (I could come up with theories all day long if I cared to), so long as it's a plausible turn of events.

[Palanan]

So, second episode is out. Hella good fun.

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This one certainly ramps up the goofy and the freewheeling fun, and Djimon Hounsou just about stole the show with his fanboy routine. Watching Nebula vamping around was a close second in terms of enjoyably silly, especially with the “Cha-Cha” bit.

I’m a little more skeptical of Thanos palling around as one of the crew, and it would be one hella epic diplomacy check to talk him down from his signature plan. T’Challa convincing Yondu to go straight is one thing, but Yondu isn’t the brightest standard candle in the sky. Thanos is a different story; he’s not called Huggeros or Rainbowos for a reason. It’s just hard for me to see this guy, even “reformed,” as being one more member of the crew.

T’Challa himself was great, and it’s quite poignant to hear Chadwick Boseman in the role again. More than any other Marvel actor, he seems inherently suited to play a hero.

The various cameos were a trip—and seeing Knowhere become a giant chia pet was hilarious. And also both sad and almost-funny that the non-Starlord Peter Quill ended up working in a Dairy Queen.

All in all, great fun—and, in contrast to the Captain Carter episode, here we see someone not following the script of the original sources, but rather changing everything around him by virtue of who he is. It’s a lovely testament to Chadwick Boseman himself.

[theNater]

Doylist only: It's part of the character's brand.

Steve Rogers and Peggy Carter are different characters.

[GloatingSwine]

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I’m a little more skeptical of Thanos palling around as one of the crew, and it would be one hella epic diplomacy check to talk him down from his signature plan. T’Challa convincing Yondu to go straight is one thing, but Yondu isn’t the brightest standard candle in the sky. Thanos is a different story; he’s not called Huggeros or Rainbowos for a reason. It’s just hard for me to see this guy, even “reformed,” as being one more member of the crew.

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He sometimes is, mind. After the original Infinity Gauntlet story Thanos was the one who kept the Reality stone because he was the only person who could be trusted not to abuse it, having had unlimited power and not gotten what he wanted.

It's also, ultimately, a little gag about the Internet persistently asking why Thanos didn't just do exactly what T'Challa suggests he do here, redistribute and make more resources.

The second episode was much better because it told its own story but still actually reflected the Star-Lord/Yondu family theme as the Guardians movies did (especially 2)

[Mordar]

Steve Rogers and Peggy Carter are different characters.

In keeping with the What If trope, though, this is "What If...[Peggy] Carter Were [Captain America] the First Avenger".

This holds with more than a few of the What If comics I recall from my youth...what if this character became this superhero? So while Peggy and Steve are different/start at different points, they both have to reach a similar endpoint.

For the record, I didn't care for the episode. The issues I liked best were the ones with the biggest departure from normal, not reskins of the stories. Example: What If Wolverine Were Lord of the Vampires.

- M

[DigoDragon]

So, second episode is out. Hella good fun.

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I’m a little more skeptical of Thanos palling around as one of the crew, and it would be one hella epic diplomacy check to talk him down from his signature plan. T’Challa convincing Yondu to go straight is one thing, but Yondu isn’t the brightest standard candle in the sky. Thanos is a different story; he’s not called Huggeros or Rainbowos for a reason. It’s just hard for me to see this guy, even “reformed,” as being one more member of the crew.

I agree. This one seemed like the creators had more fun making, and I could feel that energy.

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Although Thanos is hanging with the good guys, he still believes his idea wasn't bad. "Efficient" comes up a lot in his explanation. It makes me think he's not exactly 'reformed', just talked out of murdering half the cosmos and didn't have any plans after that.

Howard getting a reappearance was fun.

The collector had the signature gear of The Avengers. I guess he either killed them or they were among the zoo. Yikes!

[Psyren]

It was definitely a bigger diversion from "canon" than the first one, though they did keep the Morag scene.

Apparently Chadwick will be in three other episodes of the show. No clue if they're planning to continue this storyline or branch out. I'm kinda hoping they don't, or at least some elements (like friendly Thanos) fade into the background a bit.

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Ego rising without Quill or the Avengers to stop him is an interesting consequence.

'

[GloatingSwine]

In keeping with the What If trope, though, this is "What If...[Peggy] Carter Were [Captain America] the First Avenger".
- M

Well yeah, but that doesn't really make sense to some of us.

The Super Soldier Serum didn't make Steve Rogers into Captain America. Steve Rogers did that by himself. Peggy Carter is not Steve Rogers. It stands more to reason that she would have done something else instead.

[Psyren]

Well yeah, but that doesn't really make sense to some of us.

The Super Soldier Serum didn't make Steve Rogers into Captain America. Steve Rogers did that by himself. Peggy Carter is not Steve Rogers. It stands more to reason that she would have done something else instead.

There are only so many ways to fight Hydra. Was she supposed to drive a lorry like the queen? Become a diplomat maybe?

She did what Steve did, taking down their labs and factories.

[GloatingSwine]

And she should have done it with a small team of saboteurs against the odds, reflecting the fact that she's trained as a secret agent not a soldier, not by smashing through all resistance in a montage.

[Psyren]

And she should have done it with a small team of saboteurs against the odds, reflecting the fact that she's trained as a secret agent not a soldier, not by smashing through all resistance in a montage.

Steve was barely "soldier-trained" either. We get the scene of him in Basic struggling with the regimen where he gets picked out by Erskine, but he had no more field experience before becoming a super-soldier than she did.

As for "small team of saboteurs against the odds," what did you think the Howling Commandos were doing? Carrying her luggage?

[GloatingSwine]

Steve was barely "soldier-trained" either. We get the scene of him in Basic struggling with the regimen where he gets picked out by Erskine, but he had no more field experience before becoming a super-soldier than she did.

As for "small team of saboteurs against the odds," what did you think the Howling Commandos were doing? Carrying her luggage?

I just said what they were doing. Smashing through everything with brute force and no resistance. There was literally no point where they were working against the odds.

There was no point in having a What If... if they weren't going to change anything about how the character acted, behaved or thought. Episode 2 is the way to do it right, Episode 1 is the way to defeat the object.

[Psyren]

Episode 2 had a mix. Some characters changed radically, while others were pretty similar in outlook and approach to their prime counterparts.

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Radical changes included Tcharlord, Nebula, Thanos.

Similar included Yondu, Ego, T'chaka.

Peggy herself changed radically from her prime counterpart, she just happened to change in such a way that put her more in alignment with prime Steve Rogers. And that's reasonable, because you needed someone in that role to properly face off against Hydra. Whatever different approach you demand her to have taken wouldn't have worked against the specific objectives Hydra was pursuing.

If you still disagree with that, that's fine, I'm more than willing to drop it here and accept that we won't ever see eye to eye.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

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The collector had the signature gear of The Avengers. I guess he either killed them or they were among the zoo. Yikes!

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Given the Collector's threats to have T'Challa dissected, those options are not mutually exclusive.

The Super Soldier Serum didn't make Steve Rogers into Captain America. Steve Rogers did that by himself. Peggy Carter is not Steve Rogers. It stands more to reason that she would have done something else instead.

Second this. She's got a completely different background and skillset. She should logically not end up Steve Rogers 2.0.

[GloatingSwine]

And that's reasonable, because you needed someone in that role to properly face off against Hydra.

Citation Needed

The idea that you need a Steve Rogers shaped hero to face off against Hydra just betrays a lack of imagination about how different scenarios and their heroes could be constructed and still carry the same themes and end in the same place.

Hell it’s in Norway, do the Norway movie. Heroes of Telemark but tentacles instead of nukes.

[GloatingSwine]

The collector had the signature gear of The Avengers. I guess he either killed them or they were among the zoo. Yikes![/SPOILER]

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Without Thanos nothing brought them together as the Avengers and they quit or died out alone

[Psyren]

Citation Needed

The idea that you need a Steve Rogers shaped hero to face off against Hydra just betrays a lack of imagination about how different scenarios and their heroes could be constructed and still carry the same themes and end in the same place.

Why would they need to imagine wildly different scenarios that only you seem to have a hangup about?

[GloatingSwine]

Why would they need to imagine wildly different scenarios that only you seem to have a hangup about?

Because that's the entire point of the What If format. If they don't, why bother?