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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
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    The ending had to have the "failure disguised as success" thing to succeed in its twilight zone/outer limits story ambition though. He has to turn himself into something Christine would reject in the course of saving her.

    That was, ultimately, more powerful than the whole "change this fixed point in time and the whole universe collapses" bit, because the consequences of it were organically connected to the story not "well that's just how time works this episode". Gotta have a sting in the tail, that was a better one than the other one.
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    Pretty sure you could have had that with the deal option as well, it'd probably have been better since it wouldn't have been a eww you ugly now reaction from Christine it could have been a genuinely nice moment followed by a my god what have you done moment. The sting in the tail of this episode is weak because it never gives you a glimmer we know from the start the out come, to have a properly bleak ending you got to have that spot of hope.

  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer

    I think a fundamental problem I have with this type of series is that so many of the stories rely on a premise of "what if the normal story had a depressing twist?" Lots of writers never grow past the "dark equals deep" phase they picked up from their high school English teacher, and it's extra prevalent in this genre.

  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacewolf View Post
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    Pretty sure you could have had that with the deal option as well, it'd probably have been better since it wouldn't have been a eww you ugly now reaction from Christine it could have been a genuinely nice moment followed by a my god what have you done moment. The sting in the tail of this episode is weak because it never gives you a glimmer we know from the start the out come, to have a properly bleak ending you got to have that spot of hope.
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    I thing Strange turning himself into a literal monster is probably the best way to do it in the course of a 30 minute story in a visual medium though.

    We still had the dramatic irony of understanding how what he was doing would fail because we can see what he’s become and he’s too obsessed to, so it does preserve the tragedy of the outcome.

    The fixed point in time collapse the universe but felt redundant in the face of the character driven tragedy.

    The biggest weakness for me is doing this love obsession thing with a character whose only real love was himself, as was the case with origin Stephen Strange.

  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mordar View Post

    I seem to recall a lot of the issues laid out the triggering event immediately...but for this to have any mystery, we couldn't be shown the event without knowing what was going to come into play.

    Would it have been good/enjoyable/satisfying to get the trigger in a flashback, perhaps right before the reveal?

    - M
    I get this, but I disagree. We want to know what the act was so we can assign meaning to it, but once the act is in motion ever subsequent choice also imparts the world with meaning. We suffer with "Hauntology" everyday, and if we try to fixate it with a single act that is merely projection of the ego.

    But this is a narrative not real life, it is a game and we all know the story we are telling is a game that pleases us, or other feelings like creates discomfort. Since it is a game I can make an interesting ending, like Jazz, and argue there are many different ways to create something interesting. (Structuralism vs Post-Structuralism.) For example what happens if the Watcher shows ups multiple ways the triggering event could have caused this same outcome? For example the Avengers failed, for one of them lost faith in the project and thus there were multiple ways for the Avengers to fail including everyone losing faith all at once?

    Isn't this an Agatha Christie device with a "Who Done It"? (a type of genre) Where there wasn't a single murderer but many?

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
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    I thing Strange turning himself into a literal monster is probably the best way to do it in the course of a 30 minute story in a visual medium though.

    We still had the dramatic irony of understanding how what he was doing would fail because we can see what he’s become and he’s too obsessed to, so it does preserve the tragedy of the outcome.

    The fixed point in time collapse the universe but felt redundant in the face of the character driven tragedy.

    The biggest weakness for me is doing this love obsession thing with a character whose only real love was himself, as was the case with origin Stephen Strange.
    But that is it

    Spoiler: Episode 4 and Kintsugi
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    Strange of the MCU never loved Christine, he loved the idea of Christine (I hate these language games for some things about love are beyond words)

    She loved him despite his flaws, and by accepting he is flawed is what he needed to be capable of love and something more. Kintsugi the art of accepting imperfections and creating harmony despite imperfections. Kintsugi which literally means "golden joinery" or its variant word Kintsukuroi which means "golden repair."

    The chimera Strange was Strange locked in time, he stopped living and his obsession took over his own cognition that he had no needs or desires besides that one thing. That is not living, and that is not love. He was no different than Dormammu given flesh. And if he was able to save Christine and not break the MCU universe in the process, what then? Ever imperfection he would go back in time and fixed to create an artificial universe where she lived forever, a Simulacra of reality. A dead reality like the dark dimension.

    Only via surrendering his ego could the universe move forward, else it was a Strange plaything of a man who an aspect of his ego became all consuming.

    The Strange of the MCU accepted his hands were broken and would always cause him pain and still work but did not have the fine motor movements / occasional shakes that happens since Strange is handicappted. That strange recognized he had repaired himself yet simultaneously he was still broken and he is capable of loving others and being loved. The difference between the two is was the struggle internal or external and Strange is not at the stage of his life where he could handle those external struggles without a contradiction (yet.)
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  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer

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    If anyone honestly suggests that evil strange is Mephisto then i.... uugghh
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  6. - Top - End - #186
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    My spoiler free review:

    4 > 3 > 2 > 1

  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Default Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer

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    As a long-time fan of the Twilight Zone, this does feel a bit like one of those episodes. Pretty gut-wrenching at the end, but like... gotta have at least one depressing end in the series to show how far this rabbit hole can go. The fixed time point concept kept making me think of Doctor Who though. ^^;
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  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer

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    So this was pretty good, seemed to capture the What If nature fairly well and told an interesting enough story but that final but was quite chilling and really did sell me on the episode. I hope we can get some more like this.
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  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Default Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer

    Spoiler: interesting bit in Ep4
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    Something that got me curious; Strange mentioned that he heard/read about the Watcher and what they do. I want to know where that knowledge is and how it came about. Might me interesting, might not be.

    It was interesting to see Strange actually talk with him. I was wondering if they were going to bump heads.

    (amusingly, I recall that the Watcher has interfered with events in the comics. He probably won't in this series, but there's prescident if he does).



    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
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    So this was pretty good, seemed to capture the What If nature fairly well and told an interesting enough story but that final but was quite chilling and really did sell me on the episode. I hope we can get some more like this.

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    I have a suspicion that the zombie episode is gonna be another downer ending like this one. It make sense, but no less a downer.
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  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigoDragon View Post
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    Something that got me curious; Strange mentioned that he heard/read about the Watcher and what they do. I want to know where that knowledge is and how it came about. Might me interesting, might not be.

    It was interesting to see Strange actually talk with him. I was wondering if they were going to bump heads.
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    Since he spent hundreds of years in the most ancient of Ancient Ones libraries reading forbiden lore I imagine it happened some time there.
    Last edited by Dragonus45; 2021-09-03 at 11:06 AM.
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  11. - Top - End - #191
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    I liked this story better when it was called "Stein's Gate".

    The fixed point in time loved one dying repeatedly loses a lot of impact on the second viewing.

  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
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    I liked this story better when it was called "Stein's Gate".

    The fixed point in time loved one dying repeatedly loses a lot of impact on the second viewing.
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    While I'm kind of glad they went there with the downer ending, part of me thinks he's going about it the wrong way. If the problem is, 'if the girlfriend is saved because of magic then Strange never pursues magic and this causes a paradox' then the solution isn't 'more power' the solution is 'fake her death so that Past!Strange thinks she died and actually shove her in a magic stasis closet. And then go fish her out of the magic stasis closet in the present, now that you know that's what happened.'

  13. - Top - End - #193
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    Default Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer

    Ah, another thread entirely between spoiler brackets.

    My feelings so far:
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    A pretty cool and wholesome retelling of a Marvel movie with the characters switched around a bit. I really liked Peggy Carter as Captain Britannia and Steve Rogers as diesel-punk Iron Man. Now, it would be pretty boring if the whole series was like that, but for one episode it works.

    Spoiler: Episode 2
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    The one with the best jokes, from the total inversion of the "Who?" scene to the JoJo redesign of the Collector. However, the premise and all the "Been there, fixed it all" anecdotes were really out there.

    Spoiler: Episode 3
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    A great use of movies that, in universe, were all happening at the same time. Also a believable take on one of our heroes becoming a villain. Personally, I found the episode enjoyable from start to finish.

    Spoiler: Episode 4
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    So, I realize it is a waste of perfectly good gravitas, but I just couldn't get into that episode. The MCU's rules regarding nexus events were already a mess, and now we got absolute points that exist just to make the protagonist suffer.

    Ranking: 3 > 1 > 2 > 4

  14. - Top - End - #194
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    Default Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
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    While I'm kind of glad they went there with the downer ending, part of me thinks he's going about it the wrong way. If the problem is, 'if the girlfriend is saved because of magic then Strange never pursues magic and this causes a paradox' then the solution isn't 'more power' the solution is 'fake her death so that Past!Strange thinks she died and actually shove her in a magic stasis closet. And then go fish her out of the magic stasis closet in the present, now that you know that's what happened.'
    Spoiler: Time travel
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    I don't know if the Eye works like the quantum time traveling in Endgame, so I don't know if Strange can pull her out to fake her death or if he is limited to only taking himself in time. Assuming the Nexus event even let's him save her.

    She died when Strange didn't show up with the car to pick her up. I wonder if an attempt to fake her death would fail anyway?



    Quote Originally Posted by Millstone85 View Post
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    A great use of movies that, in universe, were all happening at the same time. Also a believable take on one of our heroes becoming a villain. Personally, I found the episode enjoyable from start to finish.
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    I kept laughing at every day of the week they put up in transition. Dunno why, it just seemed **** an amusing visual.

    "This is Nick Fury having a bad week."
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    Last edited by DigoDragon; 2021-09-05 at 01:04 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigoDragon View Post
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    I don't know if the Eye works like the quantum time traveling in Endgame, so I don't know if Strange can pull her out to fake her death or if he is limited to only taking himself in time. Assuming the Nexus event even let's him save her.

    She died when Strange didn't show up with the car to pick her up. I wonder if an attempt to fake her death would fail anyway?
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    That's part of why I would have liked to see him try. Either it works, or we the audience get more information on Absolute Points - as it is, as far as I can tell it's an Absolute Point because of the paradox, so it's unclear if there's supposed to be more to it than that. Would it still be an Absolute Point without the paradox?

  16. - Top - End - #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
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    That's part of why I would have liked to see him try. Either it works, or we the audience get more information on Absolute Points - as it is, as far as I can tell it's an Absolute Point because of the paradox, so it's unclear if there's supposed to be more to it than that. Would it still be an Absolute Point without the paradox?
    Just a reminder there are different type of stories we can tell.

    Spoiler: The End of All Things and Eschatology
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    Melancholy and Mourning is at the heart of any What If story involving Eschatology and Grief.

    Eschatology being the branch of philosophy / theology that grapples with the end of things / end of the world / end times / etc.

    If the Absolute Point can be surpassed if you out think a paradox then a form of knowledge can return a “redemptive power” to the conclusion of the story. Via secular acts one can re-enchant the world with meaning and love, from a specific object even if that object is another person and thus thing-onto-itself. But if no action by a man can fix this than the redemptive power that re-enchants the world is located elsewhere. Perhaps Strange needs to turn to other people and opening himself to others to fill the void inside of himself and no form of mastery can fix the unbearable pain he feels from time to time.

    When you are telling a story with a protagonist you are telling an individual tale, but also delving into metaphysics and theology, and are telling us something about the world itself. Thus when a writer writes, they are forced to make choices to tell a listener of how the writer feels the world is. Perhaps there is a way out of this one paradox until you slammed into another wall again and again. Perhaps the world is full of mystery and it is in the end ineffable. When talk about time and the nature of things we are talking also about being and perception and we should be willing to abandon the concept of mastery at all. Strange may be the sorcerer supreme of earth but even he has limits?
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  17. - Top - End - #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigoDragon View Post
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    Something that got me curious; Strange mentioned that he heard/read about the Watcher and what they do. I want to know where that knowledge is and how it came about. Might me interesting, might not be.
    He probably read about him in some of the books in the super secrect library and later on, after he absorbed a lot of creatures, he became so powerfull himself that he could at least sort of feel it when his direct attention was focused in him

  18. - Top - End - #198
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    I got the impression Vision isn’t worthy of Mjolnir in this one.

  19. - Top - End - #199
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    Default Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer

    New worst episode. By a margin.

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    Boring and made no sense.

    Superhero vs. superhero fights were at least somewhat interesting in Civil War when they had motivations. Here, not even that. And no one who shows up has any interesting powers.

    Also, how exactly is everyone getting infected? Iron Man? In a full suit? Vs. a handful of zombie civilians? Thanos? HOW.

    And it has several of my least favourite MCU characters.

    Mix that all up, cover in some cookie-cutter emotional splurge and zombie movie clichés*, serve lukewarm.

    *Remember guys, clichés are funny if a wisecracking character points out that you use them!
    Last edited by Eldan; 2021-09-08 at 11:53 AM.
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  20. - Top - End - #200
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    Default Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    New worst episode. By a margin.

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    Also, how exactly is everyone getting infected? Iron Man? In a full suit? Vs. a handful of zombie civilians? Thanos? HOW.
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    Ant-Man. Same as the other Avengers.

    Civil War showed that he can get inside Tony's suit.

    Do people watch things before complaining about them on the internet? Science has no way to know!

  21. - Top - End - #201
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    My spoiler free review:

    5 > 4 > 3 > 2 > 1

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    I think Hank Pym is cursed.

  22. - Top - End - #202
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    Default Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    New worst episode. By a margin.

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    Boring and made no sense.

    Superhero vs. superhero fights were at least somewhat interesting in Civil War when they had motivations. Here, not even that. And no one who shows up has any interesting powers.

    Also, how exactly is everyone getting infected? Iron Man? In a full suit? Vs. a handful of zombie civilians? Thanos? HOW.

    And it has several of my least favourite MCU characters.

    Mix that all up, cover in some cookie-cutter emotional splurge and zombie movie clichés*, serve lukewarm.

    *Remember guys, clichés are funny if a wisecracking character points out that you use them!
    I will be IMPRESSED if it somehow manages to be worse than episode two.
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  23. - Top - End - #203
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    Default Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer

    I didn't mind episode two. Lighthearted fun, main character a bit overhyped, that one guy really annoying, fine otherwise.
    Resident Vancian Apologist

  24. - Top - End - #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Precure View Post
    My spoiler free review:

    5 > 4 > 3 > 2 > 1

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    I think Hank Pym is cursed.
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    Hope arguably has it worse. Hank just lost it after his daughter died. Hope nearly got eaten by her zombified mother, saw her boyfriend get zombified by her zombie dad, then saw a full-scale apocalypse before getting zombified herself. Ouch.


    I enjoyed this one, but I'm a fan of the genre and don't have particularly high standards for anything from that genre. I can see how others would be turned off.

    I will say that I think a lot of these episodes get over-analyzed. They're 30 minute What If stories, and if you spend 30 minutes (or even 30 seconds) analyzing the plots you're probably spending longer than the writers did. The whole series so far as been "Wouldn't it be cool IF?" stories that work back from a singular change. Which is exactly what the series title says.

  25. - Top - End - #205
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    Default Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer

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    I mean, sure, but... nothing interesting happened, as far as I'm concerned. It seemed mostly an excuse to have the heroes fight each other without having to come up with a motivation for any of them.
    Resident Vancian Apologist

  26. - Top - End - #206
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    Default Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    New worst episode. By a margin.

    Boring and made no sense.
    I don't know if it made sense or not, but it was definitely a snooze.

    3 > 1 > 2 > 4 >>>>> 5

  27. - Top - End - #207
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    Default Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer

    I skipped this one because I generally dislike all things zombie, so didn't feel motivated to spend the time.

    Sounds like I didn't miss much. Looking forward to Hawkeye.

  28. - Top - End - #208
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    Default Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer

    Speaking as someone who's liked most of the other episodes, this one really didn't do much for me.

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    I think the thing that bothered me the most was that it felt like the tragedy of the mainline Avenger's deaths was really underplayed.

    Also, what managed to Zombify Thanos at the end? Assuming he's in New York City, who has the ability to make him bleed? Considering characters that have shown up in the MCU so far my best guess is Iron Fist.

  29. - Top - End - #209
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    Default Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Ruby34 View Post
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    Also, what managed to Zombify Thanos at the end? Assuming he's in New York City, who has the ability to make him bleed? Considering characters that have shown up in the MCU so far my best guess is Iron Fist.
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    He wasn't in NYC, he was in Wakanda.

  30. - Top - End - #210
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    Default Re: Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
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    Ant-Man. Same as the other Avengers.

    Civil War showed that he can get inside Tony's suit.

    Do people watch things before complaining about them on the internet? Science has no way to know!
    ^ That.

    Although I find zombies that can fully use powers / tech to be beyond OP, there's no way anyone should have survived that. (As backed up by the ending shot.)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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