Storytelling dillema (about changing parties)

[Enlong]

Hello. I have zero experience DMing, so if this is a dumb question, please forgive me. I am currently working on creating a home-brew campaign setting to allow a game to be played in the world of Final Fantasy VI. I have no problems with stats and stuff, I'll make the homebrew in due time, but I have a dilemma when it comes to the story-telling. How do I DM a game where the party is so modular? Over the course of the story (and this is the case in many a Final Fantasy, were I to try making a campaign for one of them), there are many changes to the party roster: party members are incapacitated, captured, go insane and fly off, etc.

My question is this: How do I DM a game where the party roster is not set in stone?
Do I take over characters as NPCs sometimes and give the player another character to control for a time? Do I take the player of the character who leaves and privately RP what happens to them? And when the group expands and has quite a large number of people, how do I work out party-swapping? Do I have people "call" certain characters to play as when the party switches?

I guess I do have one crunch-related question. Is it wrong to limit multiclassing options so that the a character makes more sense in terms of the story? (Meaning, in the world of FFVI, Locke is a Rogue and it wouldn't make much sense for him to multi-class into, say, Barbarian or Monk or something. And by that same token, magic-casting classes are extremely limited in number within FFVI.)


Comments would be very welcome, and suggestions even moreso.

[Frakbox]

I'm not sure i understand your question but this is what I think i can explain...


take this witha grain of salt because right now i have a high fever...

in your DM experiance you shoulnd't have more than 5 people at a time your DM'ing for. then there are just too many people. your party members should want to do stuff alone. and then it should find some way to affect the group. or else they were doing it just for no reason.

i don;t even know what i'm saying now... I'm sick... i need sleep.,

[Mewtarthio]

Alternative solution: The PCs aren't the characters in the game. Those guys either all died at the first boss or simply never existed in the first place. The PCs are running around the world and following roughly the same path, but the story changes based on their actions. After all, if the PCs wanted to play FFVI, they'd play FFVI, right?

[leperkhaun]

hmmm, well i think your expectations need some review.

Players should NOT be constantly changing what characters they play. The point is to play one character, and while death needs to be a real possibility, you shouldnt make situations that the party cant get out of or overcome. Again, players should not be rolling up new characters constantly.

Players should control their characters, its no fun playing a character that the DM controls, or that you have to approve every action with the DM.

As a single DM you should not run very large groups, espically if you are new to it. Large groups take much much much longer to run, and requires the DM to pay much more attention to things as the party has many more options. The DM has to remember much more and make story for that many more people. Also balancing very large parties can be difficult, its not as simple as throwing more or harder monsters at the party......hmmm and its hard to split "spotlight" time in that large a group.

Multiclassing - I think you should lay down the ground rules for what classes can be played (IE let them know if its CORE only classes, or if classes from a certian book are not allowed. Other than that id say let people multiclass, honestly there really isnt any reason too. Now you may need some RP reasons why all of a sudden that fighter is able to cast spells....

If you are going for a "swap out characters in a party" kinda like how you could in FF, just let themmake a couple different characters.

[Nerd-o-rama]

First, listen to leperkhaun's ideas above. That's pretty much what I was going to say. In fact, you probably want to rethink the idea of having your players play through a script that's already been written, as characters that have already been fleshed out beautifully in their own story. For an example of why this is a bad idea, see here.

Personally, I've been wanting to play a game in the world of FFVI for a while now, from the point of view of low-ranking Imperial soldiers/mercenaries/science projects. But I can't find a system I'd be satisfied to run it in...

[Miles Invictus]

Here's some very blunt but very well-intentioned criticism: Your campaign sounds like a heavily-railroaded rehash of the main plot (you talk about taking over PCs), with your players forced to play the exact same characters as from the game (you talk about deciding what's "in-character" for PCs). Maybe your players will feel differently, but that doesn't sound like much fun to me.

I think you should take the game's "main party" out of the campaign, and let the players roll up their own characters in their place. Then you won't have to spontaneously control PCs to forward the plot, or restrict classes based on what would be "in-character" for that PC. (Not that you should be doing that anyway.) It'd solve the one major issue I see with your idea.

I've suggested this for other people, but I think it'd be particularly useful for your campaign: let the players know that the party has an entourage -- an unknown number of people who hang with the party (and thus replace killed PCs) but don't play an active role in the events. It'll help you deal with plot points where the adventurers need to split up. Instead of splitting them up, you put the party on one path and say that some people in the entourage go down the other path.

Anyway, good luck.

[Enlong]

OK, I understand the criticisms. Thank you. I think that if I ever get this project off the ground enough to actually run a campaign based on it, I'll do what Miles said and have the party be completely new characters, perhaps a group of Returners (what better organization to pull a group of adventurers from?), and have most of the PCs nonexistent. However, I would still have some of what would otherwise be main characters (such as, say, Terra, Celes, and Edgar) exist as storyline-important NPCs, but not have them interfere too heavily with the party, but more often have them talked about from afar. That wayt he party can go their own way, they get to make their own characters, and I can still have the story in the same world, but have the story dependant on what the players do, instead of how the original game works. Not to mention that I am freed from a lot of the inevitable class homebrewing, as I no longer necessarially need to make a Rune Knight class, or Machinist, or Mortal Fist or anything like that. Believe me when I say that this helps immensely and takes a huge load off my chest.

Now all I have to do is come up with a working mechanic for Magicite, but that's for another thread.

One final, not-quite-serious question. Would it be worth it to make a Moogle race? just in case some of the players want to be moogles?

[KillianHawkeye]

I agree with pretty much everything Invictus said. I can say (from experience) that it's not any fun to play in a story that you already know the outcome of. I would also rule out anybody playing the specific characters from FF6, because IMO players need to have the freedom to make their own choices for their characters.

If you want to run a game, as you said, "in the world of FF6" then I suggest you set it some time either before or after (or possibly during) the main events of FF6 (or during the 1 year of downtime after the big mid-game cataclysm) and come up with an original story that somehow relates to the main story of FF6 in some way. This way you could still incorporate important locations and major characters as NPCs (rather than as PCs). I assume since you even have this idea that you've played FF6 at least a few times, so you probably know the game well enough to pull this off.

Alternatively, if you haven't already told your players that you're doing an FF6 inspired game you could convert things to a setting that is somewhere between FF6 and the generic D&D, thus allowing you to let the players take the role of the PCs in the FF6 storyline in a more generic setting. All you'd have to do is "change the names of people/places/etc. to protect the innocent."

I'd be interested on hearing how this turns out, so please post updates once you're ready to start your game!

Oh yeah, Locke was a Treasure Hunter, by the way...


EDIT: About the moogles... Mog was the only one that was really any good, and that was only because he could shake it on the dance floor. Also, Mog was the only one who could actually talk, so unless your characters like saying "Kupo" a lot, then don't bother.

[Frakbox]

we played a campaign where we already knew what was going to happen. we went back in time so we knew what had happened before it happened at that time.

we also were sent to get the EYE OF A MAELSTROM. only did we realize that 15 years of campaign time sailing out to sea and getting in a battle with 90 ships with balor(not sure on spelling.) captins, that in fact we should have made sense motive checks on the guy that told us to do it and we wouldn't have wasted 15 years of our PC lives (in game). most of us were humans. the wizard died from old age.

that had nothing to do with anything.

just always make sense motive checks.

[Jack Zander]

Keep the main characters of the story, keep the story, keep the events in place. Change the perspective of the story so that all the FF characters are NPCs and make the party a group that is constantly working behind the scenes to help the FF party. Alternatively, make the setting between the times of the first world and the dark world (or whatever you wanna call those eras).

I've done this before in a Star Wars campaign where the party was constantly trying to help Leia and recover the droids in Ep IV, but were always one step behind them. There were a few points in the campaign were they directly helped them escape certain traps and such, but it was always unknown to the protagonists that they had another group of people helping them. I continued this all throughout the original trilogy and it worked out beautifully.

[Enlong]

Keep the main characters of the story, keep the story, keep the events in place. Change the perspective of the story so that all the FF characters are NPCs and make the party a group that is constantly working behind the scenes to help the FF party. Alternatively, make the setting between the times of the first world and the dark world (or whatever you wanna call those eras).

I've done this before in a Star Wars campaign where the party was constantly trying to help Leia and recover the droids in Ep IV, but were always one step behind them. There were a few points in the campaign were they directly helped them escape certain traps and such, but it was always unknown to the protagonists that they had another group of people helping them. I continued this all throughout the original trilogy and it worked out beautifully.

Wait... I could do both! The aforementioned group of Returners could always be a few steps behind the main party, or doing stuff relevant to the war effort while the party is off doing stuff like opera stake-outs. Then when the catastrophe cometh, the group could spend the year resisting Kefka (for what it's worth), and after the year o' evil is up... I don't really know. Perhaps it could transpire that they're working behind the scenes during that time, to make sure that the party has the proper stuff to succeed? I just don't want it to end up like this, where the PCs don't have anything to do with actually ending the threat, so suggestions there would be nice. As for keeping you posted, I'll do that, but this is going to take a while, I have to homebrew a lot of stuff for this.

[VerdugoExplode]

The problem I could see is that, if the party has familiarity with the story as well, why are they there? They know how it ends and know that whether or not they put in an effort the good guys win, everyone's happy and the credits roll. Unless you're doing something either before or after the story odds are they might feel useless.

[Enlong]

The problem I could see is that, if the party has familiarity with the story as well, why are they there? They know how it ends and know that whether or not they put in an effort the good guys win, everyone's happy and the credits roll. Unless you're doing something either before or after the story odds are they might feel useless.

Huh, I don't have an answer for that. Jack Zander, how did you prevent this dilemma with your group?

Edit: Actually, this just sparked to me a bit of an idea. What if it is the PCs, rather then Team Celes, who eventually storm Kefka's Tower? Like, the canon party is too far scattered to do anything, (or something like that) so the PCs raise an army, or burrow underground, or reverse-engineer some Sky Armor suits, or something, and go after Kefka themselves. The only problem I see here is the PCs thinking that the canon party is going to do the whole job, and there are various ways to give them a hint. What do you think?

[Miles Invictus]

You could use the familiar setting to lull your party into a false sense of security, and then change everything.

"The first thing you notice as you enter the cavern are the dead moogles strewn about the floor. Their normally white fur has been stained pink with their own blood; they must have put up a terrific fight before succumbing to their wounds. Further down the corridor, you hear a young girl sobbing and screaming someone's name."

Suddenly, the moogles have failed, Locke has been killed, and the imperials have managed to recapture Terra. What now, players?

[Enlong]

That's... freaking... AWESOME! That, I think, is the perfect way to change the story around and drop the story right into the players' hands. Thank you very much.

(though actually, it's the Narshe Guards who fought in the caves, but having Terra recaptured is an awesome twist; I love it!)

I can see the scenario now: ten dead moogles strew about the cavern. Locke's body, impaled by the Marshal, slumped in front of the door amidst a pile of dead Lobos and Vomammoths. A trail of blood left by a wounded Marshall, leading to his charred corpse. Following the path further shows signs of a struggle, heavy claw-like marks in the cave floor, and no Terra. In one perhaps excessively bloody opening, the game's plot has been thrown out the window and it's up to the players to decide where to go from there.

[KillianHawkeye]

Looks like you're coming up with some great ideas. If you're going to go drastically changing the story, my advice is to make a couple small changes at first and then see what gets affected by those changes, then see what gets affected by those changes, etc., while making additional changes as necessary. This way you create a totally different story by using this "ripple effect" along with just a few minor course corrections, and end up with something that is more or less self-replicating.

I once used this technique to outline an "alternate universe" version of FF6's storyline that I was going to use in a fanfiction where the two realities converged, but I never got around to writing it because I also wanted to include FF4, FF5, and Chrono Trigger (and I never did finish playing FF5 ). If you want, I can try to find what I did with it and you can use any of the ideas that you like.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Fanfic senses tingling...nah, if I ever do write anything creative, it'll be about the true heroes of Final Fantasy VI...

Biggs and Wedge.

[Enlong]

Hm. Ripple/butterfly effect sounds cool. What I could do is instead of dead moogles, a dead Locke, and an already-captured Terra, I could have a very injured Locke tell them that the Marshal went after a roused Terra, who fled into the mines. The players then fined the burned corpse of the Marshal, and further on, a pair of Magitech-riding soldiers attempting to cart off Terra. THis leads into a battle where the players are trying to win and recover Terra. If they allow the M-teks to retreat too far, then they collapse a tunnel, ensuring their escape. The party then needs to decide what to do/how to recover Terra, etc. If they do win, then Locke is hospitalized for the time being, and the party has to covertly transport Terra someplace safe. This leads into Figaro, and the choices fan out from there. Basically, I want to use this tactic to let the players know that the story is by NO means set in stone.

Thank you very much people, this is a huge improvement from the railroady thing that I am sure I was going to hate DMing.

Also, FFs IV-VI + Chrono Trigger crossover? And then some, Yo. (True, VI's part isn't here yet, and V has only had cameos so far, but the comic is SO freaking awesome you won't mind it too much)

Yes, Biggs and Wedge. And if you crossover with CT, you have them meet a kindred spirit; Piette.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Never mind their namesakes in every subsequent FF...or at least the next three.

Also: be warned that Captain SNES is a very good comic, but its archive is very long, it has not finished yet, and it updates approximately never. I was not warned of these things.

[Jack Zander]

Well when I did it, I had some pretty mature roleplayers so it wasn't a problem. They pretended their characters had no idea of the outcome and they did it really really well. There was only one incident in which a PC tried to screw things up, but since he didn't already know the story (he wasn't a Star Wars fan) he actually helped the story. The party was captured and interrogated by Darth Vader and he asked them were the hidden rebel base was. The one PC decided to tell him exactly where it was to screw things up. I laughed and told him that the Imperials find the base in the movie as well, and he actually helped the story move along. He got the nick name "traitor" and never again tried to screw things up. I also was careful of not putting them into positions where they could screw things up too bad. There was always a back-up plan of how things could get back on track, even if the story would be slightly altered from it.

Changing the story up completely can be fun too though.

[Miles Invictus]

I highly recommend the swift and permanent death of a major character. It establishes immediate drama and distances you from the original story.

It's also fun to do.

[Mewtarthio]

I highly recommend the swift and permanent death of a major character. It establishes immediate drama and distances you from the original story.

It's also fun to do.

And it can be translated quite well into any other setting!

And then they wake up to see their hero dead and crucified on the wall outside the palace, dogs tearing at his face, blood pouring down the--
"If I may interrupt for a second, I'm not sure this is quite the type of module we were aiming for."
What? What are you talking about? Kids love Spongebob, and they also love suprises! This is totally gonna nail that untapped demographic!

[Jack Zander]

And it can be translated quite well into any other setting!

And then they wake up to see their hero dead and crucified on the wall outside the palace, dogs tearing at his face, blood pouring down the--
"If I may interrupt for a second, I'm not sure this is quite the type of module we were aiming for."
What? What are you talking about? Kids love Spongebob, and they also love suprises! This is totally gonna nail that untapped demographic!

If WotC ever released that module, I'd be the first to buy it.

[Miles Invictus]

Oh, wow. Someone should totally do Imaginationland as a campaign setting.

[KillianHawkeye]

I had a pretty good idea that you may want to think about: Try and come up with some reason why the story is being changed.

For example, there could be some dark force behind it (dark espers, super-intelligent monsters, beings from another planet/dimension/time, etc.) who have set up some plan either to change the events taking place or just to conquer the world and end up causing all these incidental changes on the side.

This way, it gives the players an entirely new threat to face in addition to Kefka/Gestahl, and they can eventually find out why the story is changing and possibly stop the changes in time for the FF6 heroes to sill take out Kefka as planned, or else step in to finish the job themselves. This kind of setup will lend itself equally well to a "players behind the scenes" story or a "players are really the real heroes" story, or you could move from one to the other at some point. This will be good because the players will really feel like a part of story in a new and exciting way.

The players then fined the burned corpse of the Marshal, and further on, a pair of Magitech-riding soldiers attempting to cart off Terra. THis leads into a battle where the players are trying to win and recover Terra.

Except for the fact that Terra can take out 50 Magiteck armors in under 3 minutes by herself, although maybe not since she hasn't regained her strength or memory yet.