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Thread: Black Widow

  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Flumph View Post
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    Especially since the best part was the four members of the family, and that could have used more fleshing out, particularly Alexi and Melina. I never really got why Alexi turned and ended up in jail, or why Melina suddenly decided to help bring the Red Room down after all this time.
    Melina was put through the same program as Nat, and at some point along the way lost her hope and optimism and became cynical (as can be expected of children recruited into a program like the Red Room). She accepted her fate, justified it in various ways, and did her duty.

    When Nat resolves to go and take out the Red Room on her own, Melina is moved and wonders aloud how Natasha kept her heart after everything she has been through. On some level, Melina recognizes what she is seeing in Natasha, but it has been so long and she has experienced so much that she can't understand it anymore.

    Here we learn that the family act in Ohio was not entirely fake. Natasha tells Melina that the life lesson she taught her about gaining strength from pain allowed her to keep her soul and arrive at this exact moment in time, where Natasha is prepared to go up against Dreykhov and the Red Room alone.

    The idea that she is a part of Natasha, that the things she did and said pretending to be a mother were not just for the mission, or for Dreykhov, or for Russia, but actually had an impact on Natasha and her development, that in some way she was a mother for real to Natasha and that the strength to defy was in Melina all along, moves Melina and compels her to alert Natasha that the Red Room was on the way and the girls were in danger.

    At this point we cut away to Yelena and Alexei, but it is at this moment that Natasha, presumably, asks for Melina's help and they hatch the plan to capture the girls and infiltrate the Red Room through this ruse.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    So, this movie struck me as pretty mediocre. It seemed almost like a bunch of stuff I have already seen put into a movie together. It wasn't all done poorly or anything but, I didn't see much improvements. There were definitely some Bourne vibes here with the action, and also the scene between Nat and the Widow that says "I don't want to do this" before killing herself. There were Winter Soldier vibes here as well but the Taskmaster simply failed to be as menacing or present as Winter Soldier was in the movie, and the "I'm not going to fight you" bit at the end wasn't as resonant as it was between Bucky and Steve. In Winter Soldier, it is Steve's love for Bucky and their friendship that conflicts with Bucky's programming and gets him to abort his mission. In Black Widow, that relationship doesn't exist, Taskmaster has every reason to want to kill Nat, and it's just the antidote gas that saves her. The "we programmed you so you can't hurt me" thing gave me Robocop vibes, but at least there we had a reasonable expectation that Robocop cannot overcome it, because it is about the human soul/mind vs computer software, and the big bad firmly believes the software is in control. With Dreykhov and Nat, he is punching her and kicking her in the face knowing that her ability to smell is precisely what is stopping him from murdering her.

    Anyways, not a big deal if things aren't original but in my opinion they failed to improve on any of these concepts. Dreykhov was mildly interesting but it's unfortunate that he was only introduced moments before being killed because he basically has to just explain how evil and ubiquitous he is so we can appreciate that the hero is about to beat him.

    Alexei was weird and annoying. When we are introduced to him, he speaks perfect english and seems like a competent person. For the remainder of the film he is a moron and a buffoon and speaks in a thick accent. I tend to not like these types of characters that exist only for laughs, so he got on my nerves pretty quick. I was hoping to see some super powered character wreck sh*t when Milena says "There is something for you to break" but of course Taskmaster beats him until Milena returns to one-shot her into a cell. He could have been completely removed from the film and the only change would be that the girls have to find Milena on their own.

    All in all, I was entertained. But the family bits were clunky and the villains were underwhelming. I do like the idea of rogue Widows though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
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    Alexei was weird and annoying. When we are introduced to him, he speaks perfect english and seems like a competent person. For the remainder of the film he is a moron and a buffoon and speaks in a thick accent. I tend to not like these types of characters that exist only for laughs, so he got on my nerves pretty quick. I was hoping to see some super powered character wreck sh*t when Milena says "There is something for you to break" but of course Taskmaster beats him until Milena returns to one-shot her into a cell. He could have been completely removed from the film and the only change would be that the girls have to find Milena on their own.
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    That was a bit annoying too--at least give Captain Russia one decent fight scene, even if it's not against a major antagonist!

    My first thought was "Deadpool 2", where the comic relief character gets a fight scene to themselves, and though it's resolved in a comedic way, it's still impressive to watch and gives them a chance to show off.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azuresun View Post
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    That was a bit annoying too--at least give Captain Russia one decent fight scene, even if it's not against a major antagonist!

    My first thought was "Deadpool 2", where the comic relief character gets a fight scene to themselves, and though it's resolved in a comedic way, it's still impressive to watch and gives them a chance to show off.
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    Well this isn't the kind of movie where the male character gets to get his big climatic fight scene in, I'm betting that also plays into how they kept playing up uniquely his attempts to reconcile as buffoonish failures the whole way through. The movie certainly isn't trying to be subtle at any point though.
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    I have the impression that when she said they have mind controlled sleeper agents all around the world, she was thinking that it was used on other people. Bad people. Enemies. Capitalist pigs. Not every girl that's survived the Red Room. Not people just like her.


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    Alexei was a true believer. He trusted Dreykov at the time. He saw in Natasha and Yelena the potential to be the same kind of superhero as himself. Just look at how proud he is afterwards of all the people they've killed. He likely has different ideals than the audience. He gets locked up because he made too much noise in favor of what The Party told him to want, creating a problem for what the leaders actually wanted. He was a useful idiot, locked away so less useful idiots wouldn't start thinking he's got a point.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
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    Well this isn't the kind of movie where the male character gets to get his big climatic fight scene in, I'm betting that also plays into how they kept playing up uniquely his attempts to reconcile as buffoonish failures the whole way through. The movie certainly isn't trying to be subtle at any point though.
    I think you're reading too much into something that isn't there.
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    I can get behind the notion that a movie called Black Widow isn't going to be about Red Guardian. I don't read any malice or agenda into that.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I can get behind the notion that a movie called Black Widow isn't going to be about Red Guardian. I don't read any malice or agenda into that.
    Well, I want a Red Guardian movie now then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Well, I want a Red Guardian movie now then.
    He'd be an interesting opponent for US Agent.

    Also - I LOVED the "Crimson Dynamo" wisecrack.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sholos View Post
    I think you're reading too much into something that isn't there.
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    I would have thought this, if they hadn’t pushed Nat up on a soapbox near the end. That bit was really, really clunky for reasons mentioned.


    Unrelated, what was up with

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    the constant references to Nat’s birth mother? We’re told she abandoned Nat, then that her family was paid off because she was part of some eugenics thing but her mom kept looking for her until getting killed…and then some taunting from Dreykov about not knowing who she was and then nothing. And since Nat is now dead it’s unlikely that her mom could show up in any form later on and still have any meaningful impact.
    Last edited by Kareeah_Indaga; 2021-07-14 at 03:41 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Almost as if they had planned a sequel IF the movie succeeded...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Well, I want a Red Guardian movie now then.
    So does David Harbour.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopeless View Post
    Almost as if they had planned a sequel IF the movie succeeded...
    It would be hilarious if the Black Widow became a 2-3 movie franchise centered around family dynamics, all subsequent movies without ScarJo who couldn't catch a break

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    I have to imagine that anyone interested in a Red Guardian movie or show is either already a big fan of the character from the comics, or really wants to see David Harbour in some more stuff. Because I can't see what this movie did to interest anyone in a return performance:

    1. Despite being superhuman, he can't even climb up the tower to reach the helicopter during the prison break scene.
    2. He can't even direct Nat to Dreykov, so the very thing they broke him out for he can't deliver on. But he knows who can, so there's that.
    3. Lacks total self awareness and acts like a buffoon the whole time.
    4. Has to squeeze into his old suit.
    5. Does not even get a chance to defend himself before getting taken out by a bunch of sedative.
    6. Is not part of the plan and has no part in the plan, and is too dumb to realize there isn't an earpiece in his ear.
    7. Finally gets a chance to take out an enemy combatant; fails to do so, unsurprisingly at this point.

    Every scene with this character (after the opening sequence) serves to humiliate him or demonstrate how useless or incompetent he is. I have no interest in seeing this character fight any of the Marvel heroes, especially Cap, who has had a phenomenal treatment in the MCU franchise. There is nothing to take seriously with Red Guardian. It's just a wonder that he was kept in the movie to begin with.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
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    I have to imagine that anyone interested in a Red Guardian movie or show is either already a big fan of the character from the comics, or really wants to see David Harbour in some more stuff. Because I can't see what this movie did to interest anyone in a return performance:

    1. Despite being superhuman, he can't even climb up the tower to reach the helicopter during the prison break scene.
    2. He can't even direct Nat to Dreykov, so the very thing they broke him out for he can't deliver on. But he knows who can, so there's that.
    3. Lacks total self awareness and acts like a buffoon the whole time.
    4. Has to squeeze into his old suit.
    5. Does not even get a chance to defend himself before getting taken out by a bunch of sedative.
    6. Is not part of the plan and has no part in the plan, and is too dumb to realize there isn't an earpiece in his ear.
    7. Finally gets a chance to take out an enemy combatant; fails to do so, unsurprisingly at this point.

    Every scene with this character (after the opening sequence) serves to humiliate him or demonstrate how useless or incompetent he is. I have no interest in seeing this character fight any of the Marvel heroes, especially Cap, who has had a phenomenal treatment in the MCU franchise. There is nothing to take seriously with Red Guardian. It's just a wonder that he was kept in the movie to begin with.
    I have a secret to tell you about the Red Guardian:

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    He was meant as a joke character in the entire movie.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
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    I have to imagine that anyone interested in a Red Guardian movie or show is either already a big fan of the character from the comics, or really wants to see David Harbour in some more stuff. Because I can't see what this movie did to interest anyone in a return performance:

    1. Despite being superhuman, he can't even climb up the tower to reach the helicopter during the prison break scene.
    2. He can't even direct Nat to Dreykov, so the very thing they broke him out for he can't deliver on. But he knows who can, so there's that.
    3. Lacks total self awareness and acts like a buffoon the whole time.
    4. Has to squeeze into his old suit.
    5. Does not even get a chance to defend himself before getting taken out by a bunch of sedative.
    6. Is not part of the plan and has no part in the plan, and is too dumb to realize there isn't an earpiece in his ear.
    7. Finally gets a chance to take out an enemy combatant; fails to do so, unsurprisingly at this point.

    Every scene with this character (after the opening sequence) serves to humiliate him or demonstrate how useless or incompetent he is. I have no interest in seeing this character fight any of the Marvel heroes, especially Cap, who has had a phenomenal treatment in the MCU franchise. There is nothing to take seriously with Red Guardian. It's just a wonder that he was kept in the movie to begin with.
    He's big and fun, like a metahuman Happy. I don't think he should be the star of his own movie necessarily, but I would absolutely love to see him again.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    He's big and fun, like a metahuman Happy. I don't think he should be the star of his own movie necessarily, but I would absolutely love to see him again.
    I agree. I find the Red Guardian hilarious. He reminds me of Hercule/Homer Simpson combined.
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    I hope they never use this movie’s director ever again.

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    What could have been an awesome fight scene, tense negotiation or escape sequence with Nat and Ross was left out on purpose.


    If I wanted to imagine how the movie ended I’d go start a PbP game, not pay money to the theaters to go see it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    I hope they never use this movie’s director ever again.

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    What could have been an awesome fight scene, tense negotiation or escape sequence with Nat and Ross was left out on purpose.


    If I wanted to imagine how the movie ended I’d go start a PbP game, not pay money to the theaters to go see it.
    No, it was the right move not to have it.

    We were past the climax, the movies plot did not revolve around the conflict, it was merely the set piece. It would have been a pointless extension of the movie. We already established Natasha ran circle around Ross

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    I have a secret to tell you about the Red Guardian:

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    He was meant as a joke character in the entire movie.

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    Not in the opening, which may be why it felt like a jarring shift.


    I did read one point elsewhere that really made me giggle.

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    How does Natasha fall to her death in Endgame when this movie establishes that she's immune to falling damage?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    No, it was the right move not to have it.

    We were past the climax, the movies plot did not revolve around the conflict, it was merely the set piece. It would have been a pointless extension of the movie. We already established Natasha ran circle around Ross
    Then why have her wait for him? Why not have her run off and fade to black, or just not have Ross show up at all, since he has no purpose? As it is it’s pointlessly ambiguous - it’s not adding to the story, it’s just awkward and abrupt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    One thing really confused me

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    So at the end, does she just surrender to Ross? Or it's implied she just led him on a chase and escaped again?
    Does the Black Widow ever surrender to anyone. She surrenders as a way of manipulation Ross will soon be hearing "thank you for your cooperation".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    Then why have her wait for him? Why not have her run off and fade to black, or just not have Ross show up at all, since he has no purpose? As it is it’s pointlessly ambiguous - it’s not adding to the story, it’s just awkward and abrupt.
    The fact that we don't have an idea of what happened in problematic just because it raises a pointless question for something that isn't that important.

    But not having a whole Catch Me if You Can scene at that point in time was the right call.

    So they did the right thing, they just didn't do it the right way. Instead, they should have made a passing joke about it during the resolution later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    Then why have her wait for him? Why not have her run off and fade to black, or just not have Ross show up at all, since he has no purpose? As it is it’s pointlessly ambiguous - it’s not adding to the story, it’s just awkward and abrupt.
    It does serve a purpose:

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    Ross showing up helps to explain why none of Natasha's family even entertained the idea of sticking around, and furthermore why Nat didn't go with them on the Widow road trip. If Ross could find them in Budapest then her only way to keep her family safe from the Raft would be to not be with them. Had his presence been ambiguous, there'd be no reason for her to not simply go with them.

    As far as why she didn't run off in a different direction, I think you're making an assumption there. She has her family leave, and then the scene ends - when we see her again, she is free and obtaining a jet from The Tinkerer Mason. Maybe she only stayed long enough for her family to get away and then she scarpered, or maybe she turned herself in and escaped later, or maybe she got arrested and Cap freed her along with Sam, or maybe she even served her time and got out for Infinity War when T'Challa failed to press charges. None of these scenarios actually matters, what matters is that she had a reason to not be with her family prior to the Snap.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    The fact that we don't have an idea of what happened in problematic just because it raises a pointless question for something that isn't that important.

    But not having a whole Catch Me if You Can scene at that point in time was the right call.

    So they did the right thing, they just didn't do it the right way. Instead, they should have made a passing joke about it during the resolution later.
    I wouldn't have minded a one-liner lampshading its unimportance, yeah.
    "Turns out they didn't know what to charge me with."
    "I tend to get bored in prison. No wifi, you know?"
    "Giving Ross another wild goose to chase hopefully got him off your scent for awhile. Among others."


    Etc
    Last edited by Psyren; 2021-07-15 at 12:37 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I wouldn't have minded a one-liner lampshading its unimportance, yeah.
    "Turns out they didn't know what to charge me with."
    "I tend to get bored in prison. No wifi, you know?"
    "Giving Ross another wild goose to chase hopefully got him off your scent for awhile. Among others."


    Etc
    Holy **** that would have been so much better. Yes, make a witty joke. Give some comedy material to your beloved Scarlet Johansen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    It does serve a purpose:

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    Ross showing up helps to explain why none of Natasha's family even entertained the idea of sticking around, and furthermore why Nat didn't go with them on the Widow road trip. If Ross could find them in Budapest then her only way to keep her family safe from the Raft would be to not be with them. Had his presence been ambiguous, there'd be no reason for her to not simply go with them.

    As far as why she didn't run off in a different direction, I think you're making an assumption there. She has her family leave, and then the scene ends - when we see her again, she is free and obtaining a jet from The Tinkerer Mason. Maybe she only stayed long enough for her family to get away and then she scarpered, or maybe she turned herself in and escaped later, or maybe she got arrested and Cap freed her along with Sam, or maybe she even served her time and got out for Infinity War when T'Challa failed to press charges. None of these scenarios actually matters, what matters is that she had a reason to not be with her family prior to the Snap.
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    Didn't the next scene say Two Weeks Later? And wasn't she getting ready to go free people from The Raft? Or did Cap only rescue some of them and she decided to go back?

    I think it was a dumb decision. Just have her offer to tell Ross everything she knows about the Red Room. That has to have value to him. Obviously she wouldn't tell him everything, but there's enough there to look the other way while a non powered person slips through the cracks in the system that only wants her for hitting T'Challa. And we know at some point T'Challa is cool with her so that part isn't even worth covering. If you want to go with a jokey ending have Ross show up, she goes to turn herself in, and Ross tells her T'Challa dropped the charges so they have no reason to arrest her.

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    Its not clear whether
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    she was heading to the Raft for the jailbreak or not, since we only see Cap there
    but it's certainly possible. But that wasn't my point either way. Rather my point was
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    Ross showing up is the reason she and her family split up - that's the only thing that matters.

    If they had stayed with her, they'd likely have been arrested or needed to fight their way free.

    If she had gone with them, they'd get on Ross' radar and be fugitives too.

    So Ross forces the family apart - maybe she escapes on her own or talks her way free shortly after being caught, it doesn't really matter. Ross already served his primary purpose.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrant View Post
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    Didn't the next scene say Two Weeks Later? And wasn't she getting ready to go free people from The Raft?
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    Yes, and yes she said as much to her fixer buddy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    I hope they never use this movie’s director ever again.

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    What could have been an awesome fight scene, tense negotiation or escape sequence with Nat and Ross was left out on purpose.


    If I wanted to imagine how the movie ended I’d go start a PbP game, not pay money to the theaters to go see it.
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    Fights were kind of weak overall in this film. I never really understood the point between Nat and Yelena's original fight. Like...Yelena had to have sent those vials to Nat. With zero explanation. What's the motivation for them to attempt to kill each other? Both want something from the other that isn't a dead body.

    And then you have the giant falling sky fortress that kills all of the bad guys and zero of the good guys, and the "reveal" of taskmasker which was just obvious at this point, and then we skip the interesting confrontation with Ross.


    But as for blaming the director, that may be pretty fair. I usually spread blame around, but these actors are fairly known quantities who routinely do a good job. The director, on the other hand, has made...pretty much nothing. A couple of TV episodes, a single direct to TV movie, a couple of shorts. Jumping up to directing a Blockbuster without doing some more work on smaller films was probably a mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    Holy **** that would have been so much better. Yes, make a witty joke. Give some comedy material to your beloved Scarlet Johansen.
    It did feel as if she was almost a secondary character in her own movie. That's remarkably odd, given how long she's been stuck in this role, and we've been waiting for her to get a film focusing on her.
    Last edited by Tyndmyr; 2021-07-16 at 10:05 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Psyren's Avatar

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    Default Re: Black Widow

    Natasha is a secondary character, despite soloing both the Dragon and the Big Bad? That's... a take I suppose.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Black Widow

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Natasha is a secondary character, despite soloing both the Dragon and the Big Bad? That's... a take I suppose.
    The emotional and narrative core of the movie centers around the family unit, and BW seemed to be the one with the less emotional investment of the four. She's the most well adjusted, she's developed a large network of friends outside of this unit.

    Compared to the other three, she's the one who "made it out". So some people would point out her personal arc was less involving than the other 3, sadly

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