The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

[Rynjin]

Yeah... except none of that third bit makes any sense given the examples you've thrown out. You'll play Skyrim, a game where you can make your own character but have next to ZERO ability to affect the plot (it's one step off from being a Pokemon game, ehich sometimes gives you the riveting choice between "Yeah!" and "Of course!"), but not the Witcher games, which have a fixed character but give you infinitely more ability to actually make meaningful choices and affect outcomes.

[Lord Raziere]

Yeah... except none of that third bit makes any sense given the examples you've thrown out. You'll play Skyrim, a game where you can make your own character but have next to ZERO ability to affect the plot (it's one step off from being a Pokemon game, ehich sometimes gives you the riveting choice between "Yeah!" and "Of course!"), but not the Witcher games, which have a fixed character but give you infinitely more ability to actually make meaningful choices and affect outcomes.

Well I don't watch Skyrim stuff for plot, no skyrim stream or video does plot, its all funny stuff to show what crazy things you can do by modifying the game. which is much more entertaining in the case of Skyrim. Also I really like customizing my characters appearance.

While Witcher 3, I've already purchased it, and just procrastinating for years on getting back to actually playing it. Since I HAVE the game, watching a lets play would be spoilers since I can experience it myself if I ever put the effort in. Now I might consider breaking this rule, if only to break me out of this and at least get it over and done with so I can move on, and because I had uninstall the game to make room for others I wanted to play and reinstalling it could take up a lot of space. but maybe enough of a preview might persuade me to play it again, who knows?

[DigoDragon]

To bring topic back to Jhzargo for a hot minute here; am I the only one that kinda respects his hustle? I assume he is the only one with his head screwed on tight in this so-called "college", other than the dealer guy.

That's a fair assessment, really. Jhzargo has the ambition to be running the college way more than I, who is just here for the artifacts for my collection. If I were him, I'd probably be frustrated too. I have used him a couple times as a companion, and he is good at what he does, but not one of my fav companions to go back to.

Its just that I don't even like the college all that much. Okay, yeah the destruction of Winterhold wasn't the College's fault, but that's your community! Surely you should be doing more to help rebuild the town?

I wish you could pick someone else to be Archimage. Just let me have a day pass to use the college library. Or name a new dorm hall after me. XD

[Keltest]

I will say, Skyrim's handing out of faction leadership through totally unrelated plot rather than through genuine aptitude and dedication to the faction is one of the most obnoxious things about the game to me. It makes sense with the Companions, because they have a "first among equals, i only give suggestions instead of orders" system, but thats the only place. With the College, i do precisely nothing to actually further the College's goals, or indeed even really learn magic, in any way. I just avert disaster that somebody else instigated.

[Eldan]

Really think they should just go with the player charactder being something like "Guild Champion" or "Favored Agent" or whatever instead of actual guild leader in most cases. "Yes, you found the eye of magnus and stabbed 648 necromancers to death, but that guy over there wrote a twenty-nine volume treatise on mysticism and has been with the guild for 200 years, so, you know..."

[Triaxx]

I watched someone with a mod to let Tolfdir become Arch-mage, and he just gives you the quests to deal with the wisp things.

[halfeye]

1. There are some fixed character stories that I'm willing to pick the game for yes, but the story has to be incredibly good for me to bother. like we're talking top tier stuff here, enough to make me want to experience it directly first. There is a lot of media to sift through, and I have to filter out a lot of things to get to the gems.

There are probably more games where you don't chose your character than where you do.

Doom (and 2, 3 etc), Quake (2, 3, etc), Deus Ex (2, 3, etc), Half Life (and expansions, 2 and expansions) The Witcher (2,3) not all the follow-ons are brilliant (I was not impressed with Quake 4), but there are some pretty good games (for their times) in my list.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I will say, Skyrim's handing out of faction leadership through totally unrelated plot rather than through genuine aptitude and dedication to the faction is one of the most obnoxious things about the game to me.

Really think they should just go with the player charactder being something like "Guild Champion" or "Favored Agent" or whatever instead of actual guild leader in most cases. "Yes, you found the eye of magnus and stabbed 648 necromancers to death, but that guy over there wrote a twenty-nine volume treatise on mysticism and has been with the guild for 200 years, so, you know..."

Second both of these; when I’m out in the wilderness picking mushrooms and murdering fish for potions I’m not solving the guild’s day to day problems the way a person in a leadership role should - and I’d rather be picking mushrooms and murdering fish. Give me a nice title that reflects my accomplishments and leave the boring meetings and paperwork to someone else!

[veti]

There are probably more games where you don't chose your character than where you do.

Doom (and 2, 3 etc), Quake (2, 3, etc), Deus Ex (2, 3, etc), Half Life (and expansions, 2 and expansions) The Witcher (2,3) not all the follow-ons are brilliant (I was not impressed with Quake 4), but there are some pretty good games (for their times) in my list.

Definitely a lot more. Letting you build your own character is the exception, not the norm. It's a strength of the Elder Scrolls franchise that the games can build their central story around any character - the railroading can still be pretty offensive, but you've always got some sort of choice. Compare with (e.g.) Fallout (3, 4 at least), where you're saddled with a whole family history.

[Lord Raziere]

Definitely a lot more. Letting you build your own character is the exception, not the norm. It's a strength of the Elder Scrolls franchise that the games can build their central story around any character - the railroading can still be pretty offensive, but you've always got some sort of choice. Compare with (e.g.) Fallout (3, 4 at least), where you're saddled with a whole family history.

Yes its incredibly sad. Seems I was born into a time where it more common than most and that time seems to have passed. I hope it becomes more common.

[Anteros]

People are free to like or dislike whatever they want. That said, Link is barely a character. I'm not convinced that the Dragonborn doesn't have more personality than him.

[Lord Raziere]

That said, Link is barely a character. I'm not convinced that the Dragonborn doesn't have more personality than him.

Yeah, whats the point of a non-character if you can't customize the appearance so that its YOUR non-character at least? Makes no sense.

[factotum]

Yeah, whats the point of a non-character if you can't customize the appearance so that its YOUR non-character at least? Makes no sense.

In something like The Witcher the whole point is that you're playing a specific character from the source material. If you could customise your appearance you wouldn't be Geralt the White Wolf anymore.

[Rynjin]

Yes its incredibly sad. Seems I was born into a time where it more common than most and that time seems to have passed. I hope it becomes more common.

I wish I knew what time that was, because as far as I know there's NEVER been a time when pure create-a-characters was the norm.

[Eldan]

Second both of these; when I’m out in the wilderness picking mushrooms and murdering fish for potions I’m not solving the guild’s day to day problems the way a person in a leadership role should - and I’d rather be picking mushrooms and murdering fish. Give me a nice title that reflects my accomplishments and leave the boring meetings and paperwork to someone else!

I mean, it's not a thing that Elder Scrolls would do, I feel, but I think it would actually be hilarious if you went through all the trouble of becoming head of the mage's guild and the only effect was from then on, other mages would randomly come up to you and say stuff like "Archmage! We need you to sign this contract with the carpenter's guild for 200 new staves!", "Archmage, we need you to grade these entrance exams!", "Archmage! We need you to resolve a dispute, do you think the elemental particle of Magicka has up spin or down spin?" "Archmage, our guild house in Bravil collapsed! We need funds for the bricklayers!" "Archmage, did you read my funding application for the expedition to the Dragontail mountains yet? I need six grad students to carry my equipment!"

[Lord Raziere]

I wish I knew what time that was, because as far as I know there's NEVER been a time when pure create-a-characters was the norm.

Well there's your problem: your thinking it was the norm according to whatever definition of "norm" is to you, but haven't made the logical leap of looking it from my perspective that it would be normal to me even if it wasn't objectively true. and are stuck on looking at it from your perspective that you assume is some wide view of videogame industry and assuming I know what that perspective is. I don't.

Sure objectively you can say its not the "norm", But I grew up on games like say, Jade Empire, Kotors 1 and 2, Dragon age, Mass Effect, how foolish of me to think that these would continue. Clearly I should've saw them eventually going away like some genius. Clearly I should've predicted Skyrim being resold a million times instead new games like it being made and prepared accordingly. How shortsighted I am. It wasn't all I played sure, but they were a big part of it, and were pretty much ttrpgs before ttrpgs for me.

Now as for trying new things, I find certain strategy games (Civ 6, Stellaris) and digital card games scratch the customization itch by allowing me to pick a strategy that I like the most. After all if I beat something my way, is that not an expression of self? if I lose due to its weaknesses, is it not also a fair trade for identifying with its victories? Also Dark Souls, Nioh 2 and Code Vein offer enough customization that I like them and am willing to put up with their difficulty, because its dealing with the difficulty MY way with my character.

[Spore]

People are free to like or dislike whatever they want.

And I never said something different. And I TRULY get that one cannot get into a game even if it has stellar gameplay if the "fluff", the story and characters are not to your liking. I often have even gaming sessions where I am annoyed at not being able to control some story bits because the character has their own ideas on how to handle things.

Like the time when trained assassin and bodyguard Corvo Attano who KNOWS how to deal with magic users throws himself at an overpowered witch he only knew from fairy tales previously. Like that's a smart idea.

That said, Link is barely a character.

I know what you mean but I disagree. Link is always an elf/Hylian, he typically uses swords and a shield (though other weapons are a thing) and his greatest powers are finding incredibly powerful items and absorbing life force/stamina through exceedingly bull**** ways.

Yeah, half of it is baked in gameplay loop, but it defines his character. Plus I must admit, in BotW he even has MORE personality in the flashbacks. He is overprotective, doesn't think the princess can take care of herself and has a rivalry with an ally, a goron friend and a mom-friend in the Gerudo lady. That's plenty of backstory compared to Skyrim's "you crossed the border at the same time as rebels, you damn [insert race here]".

[Vinyadan]

Give me a nice title that reflects my accomplishments and leave the boring meetings and paperwork to someone else!

"Trebonius"

[LibraryOgre]

"Trebonius"

First time I beat Morrowind, I was simultaneously head of House Telvanni and the Archmage of the Mage's Guild. I got to be the second by showing to everyone that the previous Archmage was overly influenced by an infiltrator from House Telvanni.

[Keltest]

Yeah, whats the point of a non-character if you can't customize the appearance so that its YOUR non-character at least? Makes no sense.

Keep in mind that Link the non-character first showed up in a period of gaming where being able to distinguish a face in the pixels was considered high quality graphics. There isnt exactly a lot to customize there, and his identity as a character has grown along with his pixel and polygon counts. Link from Breath of the Wild isnt a non-character at this point, he's Link. Stoic, mute, skilled, brave to the point of foolishness and fairly single minded in his quest. He isnt as deep as, say, Geralt of Rivia, but he does have a fairly consistent portrayal that carries across the games, to the extent that its possible to do so without letting us see his dialogue.

[Vinyadan]

Keep in mind that Link the non-character first showed up in a period of gaming where being able to distinguish a face in the pixels was considered high quality graphics. There isnt exactly a lot to customize there, and his identity as a character has grown along with his pixel and polygon counts. Link from Breath of the Wild isnt a non-character at this point, he's Link. Stoic, mute, skilled, brave to the point of foolishness and fairly single minded in his quest. He isnt as deep as, say, Geralt of Rivia, but he does have a fairly consistent portrayal that carries across the games, to the extent that its possible to do so without letting us see his dialogue.

Also, Lunk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6jDObuhtKI

[Triaxx]

On top of that Link is generally designed to be that sort of basic blank slate, to let the player step into his shoes. So you don't put too much characterization in, lest it feel like ypu're playing someone else's story.

Precisely the issue Fallout 4 slammed head first into.

[Lord Raziere]

On top of that Link is generally designed to be that sort of basic blank slate, to let the player step into his shoes. So you don't put too much characterization in, lest it feel like ypu're playing someone else's story.

He is a character with an appearance and name I cannot customize. that is already too much characterization for what I personally desire for an open world game. if it wasn't an open world game, it'd a different story. also its a Nintendo game so they expect you to play the game for the sake of playing the game and liking the core loop and not care about getting any rewards. thats not real interesting to me, because it means the real reward is mastering the gameplay for the sake of mastering gameplay which I've never felt a desire to do. it means the real draw of BotW isn't anything I'd like out of an open world game, but instead going through repetitive motions for the sake of experiencing those motions. you go out and explore Skyrim, stumble across a fort, kill the bandits there, you can at least keep the loot you find. you go find a moblin camp in BotW, all your getting is a bunch of weapons that will break, so really its just being done to stockpile a bunch of interchangeable random disposable killsticks and like food/mats so you can do it again but without even something different or an upgrade to make it worthwhile. which is fine if your into gameplay for the sake of gameplay, I'm not going to judge whoever gets fun out of doing that, it just isn't me when I want an open world to explore and do stuff in.

like if we're talking linear games I'm much more accepting of a fixed character because the expectation is that the story of that linear game is good enough to be worth playing through the rails. you want to tell a story with the character and put gameplay into it, tell it. I'm a fan of things like Asura's Wrath, Undertale, the first three paper marios, a couple Tales Of games, Hades and such but I don't consider any of them open world. adding an open world to a linear story with a fixed character protagonist is mystifying to me. you want me to play a specific characters story, don't waste time just focus on telling it.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I mean, it's not a thing that Elder Scrolls would do, I feel, but I think it would actually be hilarious if you went through all the trouble of becoming head of the mage's guild and the only effect was from then on, other mages would randomly come up to you and say stuff like "Archmage! We need you to sign this contract with the carpenter's guild for 200 new staves!", "Archmage, we need you to grade these entrance exams!", "Archmage! We need you to resolve a dispute, do you think the elemental particle of Magicka has up spin or down spin?" "Archmage, our guild house in Bravil collapsed! We need funds for the bricklayers!" "Archmage, did you read my funding application for the expedition to the Dragontail mountains yet? I need six grad students to carry my equipment!"

I agree it would be hilarious, but disagree that they wouldn’t do it - recall we already have the ‘find the missing alembic’ repeatable quest, and ‘Season Unending’ is basically a real life meeting with fantasy characters.

That's plenty of backstory compared to Skyrim's "you crossed the border at the same time as rebels, you damn [insert race here]".

I dunno about backstory, but the Dragonborn is pretty consistently portrayed as a bit of a snarker, the Nerevarine is thorough but disorganized (*cough*quest journal*cough*), and the Vestige is a bit clueless.

[Rater202]

And in terms of backstory, the Champion of Cyrodiil is implied to have some kind of connection to the grave industry: They know the criminal penalties for both necrophilia and grave robbery off the top of their heads.

Regarding becoming Guild Heads: Considering that you mostly end up just taking a tithe or doing some kind of easy repeatable quest whenever you feel like it as a HEad, I think what it is is that you're being used as a figurehead while you're number 2 does all of the actual runnings of the guild with you being the one who takes the heat. They don't get all the little perks, but they also don't get the blame and the stress of having to live up to the reputation.

Let's look at the Dark Brotherhood: In Oblivion you just make a trip to get some names once a week tops and in Skyrim you get an infinitely repeatable quest to go kill some random guy. Actually running the brotherhood is delegated to someone else.

[Rynjin]

And in terms of backstory, the Champion of Cyrodiil is implied to have some kind of connection to the grave industry: They know the criminal penalties for both necrophilia and grave robbery off the top of their heads.

Given that you start the game in prison, I think the implication is less "you were part of the grave industry" and more "you have personal experience with sentencing"...

[Rater202]

Given that you start the game in prison, I think the implication is less "you were part of the grave industry" and more "you have personal experience with sentencing"...

The fact that you clearly don't know why you're in prison, you just sort of woke up there, suggests otherwise.

Especially since the penalty for grave robbery is apparently summary execution.

[Rynjin]

The fact that you clearly don't know why you're in prison, you just sort of woke up there, suggests otherwise.

Especially since the penalty for grave robbery is apparently summary execution.

You clearly had the good sense to surrender instead of fighting the guards. Therefore the penalty is 25 to life.

[Keltest]

Or its just a bit of fascinating trivia that you like to entertain your friends with. Or you were a lawyer. Or an executioner. Or a guard.

Lots of plausible reasons you might know that.

[veti]

I agree it would be hilarious, but disagree that they wouldn’t do it - recall we already have the ‘find the missing alembic’ repeatable quest, and ‘Season Unending’ is basically a real life meeting with fantasy characters.

'Season Unending' is your idea of "hilarious"? Well, diff'rent strokes I guess...

I think even Bethesda must realise they messed up with that quest, and I hope they won't repeat it. It would be kinda fun to have to deal with the day to day work of running the College, but that's not Skyrim (think of the amount of dialogue you'd have to record!), it's a whole different game.