The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

[Rater202]

Look at it from their point of view. Neither of them can afford to let the other gain a strong strategic advantage, at least not without paying commensurately for it. If Tullius gives away too much, he'd be recalled to Cyrodiil in disgrace and replaced by someone whose first act would be to repudiate the truce.

Ulfric's position is even more precarious: he has the backing of several of the jarls, but some of his supporters are less than wholehearted, and any suggestion of weakness would be fatal to his aspirations (and most likely to him).

Ulfric has to be able to claim to have won the negotiation, and Tullius has to be able to say that he hasn't given away any significant advantage. They're not bluffing, either one of them really would walk away if they can't thread that needle somehow.

Or they could just both agree to not try to kill each other for a couple of days so that we can avoid the world being enslaved and/or destroyed by dragons.

This is bigger than the war and everyone at the table knows it. Saying "I won't call a ceasefire long enough to trap a dragon at the one palace unless you surrender a hold to me" "well I won't do it unless you surrender a hold to me, and another to compensate for the one I'm giving you" is just the both of them being petty in comparison.

[veti]

This is bigger than the war and everyone at the table knows it. Saying "I won't call a ceasefire long enough to trap a dragon at the one palace unless you surrender a hold to me" "well I won't do it unless you surrender a hold to me, and another to compensate for the one I'm giving you" is just the both of them being petty in comparison.

Bigger than the war? For Tullius, Ulfric, Rikke and Galmar, nothing is bigger. If they climb down, they personally will die.

That gives them a far bigger investment than the rest of us dilettantes. It's all very well for us to say "bigger than the war", but I suggest we should check our privilege before trying to impose that value judgement by force.

[Rynjin]

And if they don't, they will also die.

This means that they all, collectively, have tacitly made the choice that between dying and saving everyone else, or spiting the world and killing everyone else with them if they must die, they all prefer the latter.

[Rater202]

Bigger than the war? For Tullius, Ulfric, Rikke and Galmar, nothing is bigger. If they climb down, they personally will die.

Says who? Nothing in the game suggests that either party would suffer in any way from just agreeing not to fight for a few days.

Unless you're really suggesting that their pride/political aspirations/so on is worth more than the life of literally everyone on Nirn plus all the souls in Soverngarde.

[Lord Raziere]

Bigger than the war? For Tullius, Ulfric, Rikke and Galmar, nothing is bigger. If they climb down, they personally will die.

That gives them a far bigger investment than the rest of us dilettantes. It's all very well for us to say "bigger than the war", but I suggest we should check our privilege before trying to impose that value judgement by force.

I don't care. They're both jerks, screw them.

what is with people defending idiot jerks like this? moral relativity only goes so far. we compassionately pass the buck on this sort of thing upwards through history far enough the only person we can blame is Lorkhan for making anything in the first place.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

...the more I think about Season unending, the more frustrated I feel that there are no options to just beat the crap out of Ulfrick and or Tullius until they agree to take things seriously instead of trying to use the ceasefire negotiation as a power grab.

My dream scenario involves handing Delphine a BIG roll of duct tape and having her tape Elenwen to a chair, and also tape her mouth shut.

But failing that, being allowed to take charge of the meeting immediately before any city swap waffling can occur, and keeping it on task until its conclusion.

…now that I’ve written that down I think I might be fantasizing a bit.

Bigger than the war? For Tullius, Ulfric, Rikke and Galmar, nothing is bigger. If they climb down, they personally will die.

Er, what? Ulfric I could see that being a logical outcome, but where are you getting that for everyone else?

[Rater202]

My dream scenario involves handing Delphine a BIG roll of duct tape and having her tape Elenwen to a chair, and also tape her mouth shut.

But failing that, being allowed to take charge of the meeting immediately before any city swap waffling can occur, and keeping it on task until its conclusion.

…now that I’ve written that down I think I might be fantasizing a bit.

My dream scenario is shouting "Silence You Fools" in the dragon language, which silences everyone in the room but you and keeps them cowed long enough to go through a dialog tree that, strong together, becomes a speech that's some variation of chastising everyone present for their flaws while driving the point home that the Civil War, the succession, the White-Gold Concordant, whether or not Talos is divine, and the exact political situation anywhere in all of it is insignificant compared to defeating the dragons and preventing the conquest or destruction of Nirn that they can all agree to a cease-fire long enough to solve the Dragon Problem or you will end the war and if you end the war neither side will be happy with the results.

If your speech skill is high enough that convinces everyone by itself, but if not the sheer insult of it gets Ulfrick and Tullius enough on the same page that you can talk them into taking it out back and fighting them both at the same time with you defeating them leading to them conceding your point.

Bonus points: Doing it this way means Ulfrick and Tullius are at Dragon'reach when you summon Odhaviin and you have them dangling precariously from his feat as he flies off.

The whole time going through the last dungeon and in Sovergarde they'll be following you around and be snarking at each other.

[Triaxx]

Galmar was Ulfric's chief advisor. Ulfric steps down, they're both going to the headsmans block. No empire survives allowing traitors to live. The rest of the Jarls that supported Ulfric would likely be immediately in line after them, along with their advisors.

As for Tullius and Rikke, admitting defeat is disobeying orders and even if Ulfric lets them go (which he's liable to do since he doesn't actually hate them personally), going home likely means a death sentence for disobeying orders. Rikke might escape if Tullius falls on his sword and even then she's likely to be in the 'not to be trusted' category and reassigned to somewhere lonely and desolate, which is tantamount to death for a Nord anyway.

[Rater202]

Galmar was Ulfric's chief advisor. Ulfric steps down, they're both going to the headsmans block. No empire survives allowing traitors to live. The rest of the Jarls that supported Ulfric would likely be immediately in line after them, along with their advisors.

As for Tullius and Rikke, admitting defeat is disobeying orders and even if Ulfric lets them go (which he's liable to do since he doesn't actually hate them personally), going home likely means a death sentence for disobeying orders. Rikke might escape if Tullius falls on his sword and even then she's likely to be in the 'not to be trusted' category and reassigned to somewhere lonely and desolate, which is tantamount to death for a Nord anyway.

How are you getting "admit defeat and submit to execution" from "mutually agree to a cease-fire for a few days without being an asshat about it."

The people in question are no more likely to be executed under this scenrio than they were in canon.

Even if this was permanent peace talks, executing the other side isn't normally part of peace talks. IT's an inherently unreasonable demand. Under normal circumstances, nobody is going to agree to their own execution.

The only way either side's leaders die is if the war continues as in the base game.

[Lord Raziere]

How are you getting "admit defeat and submit to execution" from "mutually agree to a cease-fire for a few days without being an asshat about it."

Indeed, all they are doing is shifting the burden from "these two guys have the responsibility to agree to a ceasefire for the good of the world" to "everyone else on both sides have the responsibility of not executing the leaders who negotiate a ceasefire on their behalf for the good of the world". thats absurd.

[Grim Portent]

Indeed, assuming the Dragonborn hasn't picked a side the two factions are in a stalemate anyway, all that actually needs to happen is for them to agree not to make any moves on Whiterun until Ohdaviing is captured. They don't even need to stop fighting over the other holds, not that agreeing not to make any military advances on the other side for two or three weeks at most should be a huge demand to make.

[Keltest]

I think you guys are dramatically overestimating how much of an existential threat the dragons are in and of themselves. There is exactly one settlement or military post that gets actively destroyed by a dragon, and that one was wildly unprepared for the dragons.

From the perspective of the Dovahkiin, its Alduin specifically who is the existential threat, and that relies on you believing in a prophecy that neither of the two sides have even heard of or care about.

But from the perspective of the generals, the Dragonborn is asking them to pretty please put their war on hold so that he can go fight a giant monster that ultimately wont make the dragons go away anyway.

[Anteros]

Y'all realize Tullius is a general right? He doesn't have the authority to just ignore open rebellion even if he wanted to for some insane reason. What do y'all expect him to do? Go home and tell the Senate or whatever exists in Cyrodil that he just didn't feel like dealing with a major part of their country breaking off? They decided to make some Ulfric or random guy who can speak Dragon king because he asked them to? Because he claims to have saved the world from dragons that are still actively rampaging, and don't appear to present any sort of threat to the world itself?

Do you understand how silly that sounds? They'd just hang him and send a non-moron general to replace him.

Peace talks? Do you know what they call it when you stop trying to defeat a rebellion and start peace talks? Losing the war. The instant you legitimize the insurgency as an actual faction to be dealt with you've lost the grounds to continue your war.

[Rater202]

Y'all realize Tullius is a general right? He doesn't have the authority to just ignore open rebellion even if he wanted to for some insane reason. What do y'all expect him to do? Go home and tell the Senate or whatever exists in Cyrodil that he just didn't feel like dealing with a major part of their country breaking off? They decided to make some Ulfric or random guy who can speak Dragon king because he asked them to? Because he claims to have saved the world from dragons that are still actively rampaging, and don't appear to present any sort of threat to the world itself?

Do you understand how silly that sounds? They'd just hang him and send a non-moron general to replace him.

...

In the game we got. He has the authority to negotiate and enforce a temporary cease-fire.

That is what we are talking about. Negotiating a Ceasefire... But giving the Dragonborn the option to shut down Tullius and Ulfric's respective attempts to power trip or make lang grabs during it.

[Lord Raziere]

I think you guys are dramatically overestimating how much of an existential threat the dragons are in and of themselves. There is exactly one settlement or military post that gets actively destroyed by a dragon, and that one was wildly unprepared for the dragons.

No I'm not. First of all, Helgen and that watchtower west of Whiterun are TWO military posts.

Second, the reason why they don't destroy the rest of Skyrim is because they keep attacking the Dragonborn or the same places as where the Dragonborn is. since a prophecy is involved, they can't NOT do that, because they are fated to be slain by the Last Dragonborn. Thus they are an existential threat, cancelled out by the Last Dragonborn's existence bending reality to make sure they always get slain near them, thus making sure they don't destroy more. Its only because the Dragonborn was there they are not a threat, because they are the badass dragonslaying shield keeping everyone from being killed by them. Which makes sense, because that is what the game is about. of course if the Dragonborn dies they are free to kill everyone else, which is why its a game over.

[Anteros]

...

In the game we got. He has the authority to negotiate and enforce a temporary cease-fire.

That is what we are talking about. Negotiating a Ceasefire... But giving the Dragonborn the option to shut down Tullius and Ulfric's respective attempts to power trip or make lang grabs during it.

Why should they? What actual incentive do they have to do so? Some random dude with magic powers (that coincidentally the rebel leader also has) asked them to? Or else some monster they've never heard of will destroy the world? Sure. Totally believable.

Unless you're arguing that Tullius and Ulfric actually believe the Dragonborn has the power to single-handedly put down both of their armies (they don't) then they have no incentive to listen to you at all. The fact that you can get as far as you can is already sheer plot armor.

No I'm not. First of all, Helgen and that watchtower west of Whiterun are TWO military posts.

Second, the reason why they don't destroy the rest of Skyrim is because they keep attacking the Dragonborn or the same places as where the Dragonborn is. since a prophecy is involved, they can't NOT do that, because they are fated to be slain by the Last Dragonborn. Thus they are an existential threat, cancelled out by the Last Dragonborn's existence bending reality to make sure they always get slain near them, thus making sure they don't destroy more. Its only because the Dragonborn was there they are not a threat, because they are the badass dragonslaying shield keeping everyone from being killed by them. Which makes sense, because that is what the game is about. of course if the Dragonborn dies they are free to kill everyone else, which is why its a game over.

Why should they believe any of this? Why should anyone who isn't a Greybeard or the Dragonborn himself? Also, there are totally dragons doing plenty of things besides following the Dragonborn around. Even if you magically convince them that the Dragons are compelled to follow and attack you somehow, that's far more likely to end up with you in a sack on your way to Morrowind than being put in any position of authority.

[Vinyadan]

I don't remember exactly how the meeting went, but I left it with such a negative impression of Ulfric, that I joined the Legion because of it. Plus, Skyrim cities aren't that recognisable, so, when they asked me to choose which cities should be exchanged I spent a lot of time looking up which city was which, at which point the game got bored and made a decision for me.

The exchange itself as I remember it made no sense as a condition for a few days of pause; I think it was Ulfric who said "I want some holds as payment if I make peace" and Tullius went "Well, I should get as many as you, then", and that worked, which I can only explain as a show of the Voice of the Emperor.

I consider it part of Skyrim's generally bad writing, probably exacerbated by the openly undercooked Civil War questline.

[Rater202]

Why should they? What actual incentive do they have to do so? Some random dude with magic powers (that coincidentally the rebel leader also has) asked them to? Or else some monster they've never heard of will destroy the world? Sure. Totally believable.

They showed up.

If they didn't beleive that the dragons were a threat, or in Alduin, they would have refused to meet to discuss a ceasefire.

they have literally no reason to show up.

As it is, unless you blatantly favor one side over the other when mediating the negotiations, neither side really gains anything. They both come off worse off, as holds are switched around and power blocks are broken up. Both sides lose out to some degree.

All it amounts to is a pissing contest.

And by this point in the game, even if you have literally done nothing but the main quest, you have killed multiple dragons, absorbed their souls, with credible witnesses, have been acknowledged by the Greybeards as the Dragonborn, are publically accepted as such, and ware a Thane in at least one hold. You may, in fact, have an Elder Scroll on your person, and you have slaughtered dozens of th best men of the Thalmor in situations where they were acting illegally and you were justified in doing so.

Judging from Guard Dialog, knowledge of your skills and deads spreads through the province like wildfire and some of that is bound to trickle up.

by this point, both Ulfrick and Tullius should have a general idea of what your'e capable of.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

From the perspective of the Dovahkiin, its Alduin specifically who is the existential threat, and that relies on you believing in a prophecy that neither of the two sides have even heard of or care about.

Incorrect, Ulfric knows about Alduin. Maybe not specifically ‘a Dragonborn is prophesied to destroy Alduin’ but he is suitably concerned when you tell him ‘Alduin is back’ to get him to come in the first place.

[Rater202]

I don't remember exactly how the meeting went, but I left it with such a negative impression of Ulfric, that I joined the Legion because of it. Plus, Skyrim cities aren't that recognisable, so, when they asked me to choose which cities should be exchanged I spent a lot of time looking up which city was which, at which point the game got bored and made a decision for me.

The exchange itself as I remember it made no sense as a condition for a few days of pause; I think it was Ulfric who said "I want some holds as payment if I make peace" and Tullius went "Well, I should get as many as you, then", and that worked, which I can only explain as a show of the Voice of the Emperor.

I consider it part of Skyrim's generally bad writing, probably exacerbated by the openly undercooked Civil War questline.

The first thing Ulfric does is demand that Thalmor Bitch leave. He's willing to give up a hold to not be in the same room as the woman who tortured him and convinced him that he was singlehandedly responsible for the Empire losing the war with the Thalmor.

[Anteros]

They showed up.

If they didn't beleive that the dragons were a threat, or in Alduin, they would have refused to meet to discuss a ceasefire.

they have literally no reason to show up.

As it is, unless you blatantly favor one side over the other when mediating the negotiations, neither side really gains anything. They both come off worse off, as holds are switched around and power blocks are broken up. Both sides lose out to some degree.

All it amounts to is a pissing contest.

And by this point in the game, even if you have literally done nothing but the main quest, you have killed multiple dragons, absorbed their souls, with credible witnesses, have been acknowledged by the Greybeards as the Dragonborn, are publically accepted as such, and ware a Thane in at least one hold. You may, in fact, have an Elder Scroll on your person, and you have slaughtered dozens of th best men of the Thalmor in situations where they were acting illegally and you were justified in doing so.

Judging from Guard Dialog, knowledge of your skills and deads spreads through the province like wildfire and some of that is bound to trickle up.

by this point, both Ulfrick and Tullius should have a general idea of what your'e capable of.

It's a pretty far cry between showing up to a meeting to humor a politically and personally powerful individual, and actually enacting a cease-fire based off of their outlandish claims that if they don't do so the world will end.

There's also a big difference between "this person is powerful, and we want them on our side" and "this person is single-handedly powerful enough to force us to listen to them or they'll destroy our army".


You can't even convince everyone in the thread that a cease-fire is reasonable from the general's views, and we played the game and saw everything from the Dragonborn's perspective. Good luck using those arguments on someone with literally no reason to believe your claims and every incentive to ignore them.

As an aside, this thread has me wanting to play Skyrim again. It's a shame that actually playing Skyrim isn't nearly as fun as thinking about playing Skyrim.

[Vinyadan]

Incorrect, Ulfric knows about Alduin. Maybe not specifically ‘a Dragonborn is prophesied to destroy Alduin’ but he is suitably concerned when you tell him ‘Alduin is back’ to get him to come in the first place.

I suspect Rilke had something to do with Tullius showing up. Even the barely alphabetised Nord who wrote the best-selling book "Alduin Is Real" knew Alduin was bad news, while implying that Imperials don't.

First time I beat Morrowind, I was simultaneously head of House Telvanni and the Archmage of the Mage's Guild. I got to be the second by showing to everyone that the previous Archmage was overly influenced by an infiltrator from House Telvanni.

As it turns out, Ocato sent quite the letter to Trebonius. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Letter_from_Ocato It's really funny, however -- he asked him to do substantially the same things as the player would do once Arch-mage, same title and all.

Who knows, hadn't he gone ape, maybe he could have achieved CHIM?

The first thing Ulfric does is demand that Thalmor [_] leave. He's willing to give up a hold to not be in the same room as the woman who tortured him and convinced him that he was singlehandedly responsible for the Empire losing the war with the Thalmor.

But will he give you a hold if you make Elenwen leave? Intentions, intentions...

[Rater202]

There's also a big difference between "this person is powerful, and we want them on our side" and "this person is single-handedly powerful enough to force us to listen to them or they'll destroy our army".

Consider that the weakest dragons are able to slaughter entire squads of soldiers, be they Imperials, Stomrclaocks, or Hold Guards.

Consider that dragons are really more of a nuisance than anything else for the Dragonborn and that there are witnesses to you killing them two you for sure fight in the story mode.

Consider that the Dragonborn by this point in the game has probably killed hundreds of discrete individuals, not counting wild animals and out and out monsters, in addition to multiple dragons, with it being highly plausible that both Tullius and Ulfric know about most of them.

And that's just assuming that you've done nothing but the main questline.

If you've taken the time to grind your skills, then it becomes publicly know that there's an expert or master of one or more disciplines.

If you destroyed the Dark Brotherhood, people recognize you on sight as the one who did it.

If you joined the Dark Brotherhood... Every single guard knows you're in the brotherhood but either can't prove it and is a little afraid of you(in which case they'll say "I know who you are but... Please, these are good people") or they're Sithis Worshipers("I know who you are... Hail Sithis.") So if you completed the Dark Brotherhood questline then it's an entirely reasonable interpretation for Tullius to know damn well that he's sitting next to the man who either snuck about the Emperor's ship and killed him without getting caught or else slaughtered an entire ship full of his personal guard before killing him and he can't do a damn thing about it.

If you completed the College—and you have to at least join as part of the main quest, unless you go way out of your way to avoid doing so—then you've already saved the world once and it's a reasonable assumption that you're highly skilled at least one form of magic.

Flipping it around, Ulfric believes full well in the old stories. The simple fact that you're Dragonborn should give him pause.

If you did the companions questline, then you're the first among equals of the inner circle of the most badass band of warriors in Skyrim and are publically known to have wiped out a coven of, particularly infamous witches. Anyone who puts stock in traditional Nord values like, say, the Storm Cloaks? Yeah, kind of a big deal.

God forbid you do what I tend to do and do all the faction quests and "become a Thane" quests before progressing the main queest very far.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I don't remember exactly how the meeting went, but I left it with such a negative impression of Ulfric, that I joined the Legion because of it. Plus, Skyrim cities aren't that recognisable, so, when they asked me to choose which cities should be exchanged I spent a lot of time looking up which city was which, at which point the game got bored and made a decision for me.

My first playthough I think I redid the quest something like three times trying to get a fair outcome for everyone involved…the game yelled at me for it.

Then I ended up being pro-Imperial because they wanted me to oust the cool seer lady who runs Morthal.

[Misery Esquire]

Then I ended up being pro-Imperial because they wanted me to oust the cool seer lady who runs Morthal.

Yeah, both sides seem to have a Cool Jarl^(tm) and a Trash Jarl^(tm) that end up in/stay in power if you side with them.

And then there's Riften.
... disable 00019DD1

[veti]

Yeah, both sides seem to have a Cool Jarl^(tm) and a Trash Jarl^(tm) that end up in/stay in power if you side with them.

And then there's Riften.
... disable 00019DD1

That's the reason I'll never again win the war for the Imperials. (Or give them Riften in the negotiation.)

I'd say they've each got a couple of each category, but Maven is head and shoulders above anyone as worst of the whole bunch.

[Fyraltari]

That's the reason I'll never again win the war for the Imperials. (Or give them Riften in the negotiation.)

I'd say they've each got a couple of each category, but Maven is head and shoulders above anyone as worst of the whole bunch.

Right, but Balgruuf is way better than any other Jarl.

[Vinyadan]

That's the reason I'll never again win the war for the Imperials. (Or give them Riften in the negotiation.)

I'd say they've each got a couple of each category, but Maven is head and shoulders above anyone as worst of the whole bunch.

By the way, what happens if you kill a jarl? I never thought of trying. Are there successors?

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I'd say they've each got a couple of each category, but Maven is head and shoulders above anyone as worst of the whole bunch.

This.

Right, but Balgruuf is way better than any other Jarl.

Also this. Ousting him is why it's painful siding with the Stormcloaks - and then there's no Free-Winter, either.

By the way, what happens if you kill a jarl? I never thought of trying. Are there successors?

I think they're marked essential because they're quest givers.

[Fyraltari]

I think they're marked essential because they're quest givers.

Which is why Maven remains a problem.