The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

[Rynjin]

Oblivion is weird because even with cheats/console your max magicka is well below what's needed to cast some custom spells.

...But the cap is higher with infinite effect you ched magicka for some reason, even though the issue with the console is an overflow error.

[Vinyadan]

I remember doing a replay and waiting a while before taking the Finger of the Mountain spell, because I had thought that, being levelled, it would be a better spell at higher levels.

Instead, I got it so late, that it was too costly for me to cast.

Now I kinda want to do the Oblivion questlines again, but Oblivion combat really throws me off (bullet sponges ahoy). Maybe I'll try something out when I'm done with Morrowind.

[Aeson]

High Elves' trade-off is that they're the only race in Morrowind with any strictly-negative racial abilities and no racial spells or powers (mind you, Beast Tongue is pretty close to useless, Water Breathing is probably only an Argonians racial spell because you need to drown yourself to complete the Puzzle Canal, and the Drain Agility on Berserk can be painful); "lots of magicka" is pretty much the only thing they have going for them.

That said, I agree that higher base magicka across the board would probably have been a good thing for Morrowind. I also think that for Morrowind specifically the magicka bonuses for the Atronach and the Apprentice could stand to be swapped - Stunted Magicka wasn't a significant drawback and Spell Absorption was great, so even though the Apprentice's Weakness to Magicka also wasn't much of a drawback there just wasn't much reason to take it over Atronach if you wanted a lot of magicka.

[Triaxx]

Oblivion wierdly just... You can't play without Oscuro's after having done it. Even considering how much harder it makes the start. Eventually you reach the point where you're getting stronger and mostly you remain that way.

That said I usually went Apprentice on my mages. Bonus healing strength was always welcome.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

High Elves' trade-off is that they're the only race in Morrowind with any strictly-negative racial abilities and no racial spells or powers (mind you, Beast Tongue is pretty close to useless, Water Breathing is probably only an Argonians racial spell because you need to drown yourself to complete the Puzzle Canal, and the Drain Agility on Berserk can be painful); "lots of magicka" is pretty much the only thing they have going for them.

Tangent, but the Argonian Water Breathing makes me hope to some day have a map that's half under water. (Black Marsh? Thras DLC? Sunken Yokuda?) The "everyone must be able to do everything" mentality means it's borderline useless, because they don't put in much content that will only be seen by 10% or so of player characters, but it should be really useful anywhere that has a coastline or decent number of lakes.

[Aeson]

Tangent, but the Argonian Water Breathing makes me hope to some day have a map that's half under water. (Black Marsh? Thras DLC? Sunken Yokuda?) The "everyone must be able to do everything" mentality means it's borderline useless, because they don't put in much content that will only be seen by 10% or so of player characters, but it should be really useful anywhere that has a coastline or decent number of lakes.

Between spells, potions, enchanted items, and drowning being implemented as low-level continuous damage, I don't really see why extensive underwater areas should be incompatible with the "anyone can do anything" model. It isn't like there's a minimum skill required to drink a potion, use a scroll, or wear an enchanted item of water breathing, and even if you don't have any of those handy you can still try to tank the damage or heal through it.

[factotum]

That said, I agree that higher base magicka across the board would probably have been a good thing for Morrowind.

I'm pretty sure that magic was the way it was in Morrowind due to a massive over-reaction to Daggerfall, where magic was Godly and you'd have to be insane to not use it--so they nerfed it into near uselessness in Morrowind. Not only were there all the problems with how much magicka you had and the inability to regenerate it naturally but a lot of the really nasty mobs in the game were immune to most magic anyway!

[Anteros]

Yet magic in morrowind was far more powerful and versatile than in Oblivion or Skyrim.

[veti]

Yet magic in morrowind was far more powerful and versatile than in Oblivion or Skyrim.

Definitely.

My favourite spell was "Bound Weapon (15s)". Casting cost: 1 magicka, for which you get a ridiculously powerful weapon that never needs maintenance, and that lasts quite long enough to put down nearly any opponent. And when the spell runs out, all that happens is it gets replaced by your regular weapon, so you've lost nothing.

If you wanted to kill things with Destruction magic, then you had to do it via Enchanting. That seems to be the sticking point for many people, who want to be able to simply fling lightning at enemies. But Conjuration was ridiculously strong, and Alteration and Mysticism both had options that were so powerful they were removed entirely from Oblivion onward.

And then there were the weightless potions...

[Vinyadan]

About Morrowind magic, the game itself didn't use all of its effects as much as it could have. Tamriel Rebuilt for example gives you Legion duties that fundamentally have you act as a real cop. You find yourself dealing with a violent husband, and he might get belligerent towards you. However, if you can cast a calm spell, you can use that window of clarity to convince the perp to stand down and let himself be arrested.

Another example: this might be due to playstyle, but I generally found little use for the lock spell. However, if Morrowind enemies could run away or pursue you across interior/exterior, Lock would suddenly become much more interesting (there's a mod that does that now). It could even be a fun expansion for security, locking doors instead of opening them.

In a game with radiant AI, you could use lock for more or less nefarious purposes: steal someone's key to his own home and lock him outside, or inside (for example, to win a quest where you would otherwise have to compete with him, or to advance more murderous purposes).

About lockpicking, I wonder if it can be modded to remove chance failure and work like multitools in Deus Ex games. Let's say something like this: Each kind of lockpicks has a certain number of charges. Locks go from 1 to 20 in difficulty, and the difficulty is the same as the number of charges I have to burn. Every 10 security levels, I shave off 1 difficulty point (minimum stays at 1). Lockpicks would have different charges based on quality, something like 5 (apprentice) -10 (journeyman) - 15 (master) - 20 (grandmaster) (the numbers would need to be tweaked based on loot frequency; then again, they can be bought, so prices would also need some balancing).

This would allow you to open a 20-charge lock (equivalent to 100) from the start, but it would consume a lot of lockpicks. The better your skill, the fewer the charges you need. At 100 security, you would be able to open any lock by using up a journeyman's lockpick or its equivalent.

[Aeson]

If you wanted to kill things with Destruction magic, then you had to do it via Enchanting. That seems to be the sticking point for many people, who want to be able to simply fling lightning at enemies.

Or... You could carry restore magicka potions and, you know, drink them whenever you run out of magicka while throwing fireballs and lightning around.

You don't have to use enchanted items if you want to kill things with Destruction magic; I'd even say that using enchanted items is worse if you have a low Enchant skill but a large magicka pool and the skill to cast a comparable spell, because passive charge regeneration is slow and at low Enchant skill you'll often drain an item in three or four casts.

[Rater202]

Or... You could carry restore magicka potions and, you know, drink them whenever you run out of magicka while throwing fireballs and lightning around.

You don't have to use enchanted items if you want to kill things with Destruction magic; I'd even say that using enchanted items is worse if you have a low Enchant skill but a large magicka pool and the skill to cast a comparable spell, because passive charge regeneration is slow and at low Enchant skill you'll often drain an item in three or four casts.

Seriously, that always bothered me about how magic weapons and stuff work in the Elder Scrolls: You get a magic item because you can't cast spells or so you don't have to. The way it works here is just... Casting spells with more steps.

The only magic weapon I ever used was the Dawn/Duskbreaker in Oblivion because it automatically recharged when it switched over and thus was just more convenient than anything else.

And a staff of soul trap from the MAges guild becuase when I was enchanting 100% chameleon armor because that was more convenient than grinding up the relevant skill to get the soul trap spell. I was a lazy gamer back then.

Having to either keep a steady stock of soul gems or run back to a guildhall to rechant was just too... Urg.

[Keltest]

I hate the soul gem weapon charge mechanic as well. It adds so much extra unnecessary work to just having a sword that burns people.

[Aeson]

I can't say that I see much logic in a sword that does 15 fire damage on touch when it hits something not being subject to the same constraints as a ring/wand/staff that does 15 fire damage on touch when activated - those are functionally the same enchantment, just with different trigger conditions - and if the ring/wand/staff isn't meant to be better than casting a spell that does 15 fire damage on touch then there has to be some kind of limit on its use.

That said, with Oblivion having introduced relatively fast passive magicka regeneration I don't think that the removal of Morrowind's fairly slow passive item charge regeneration really made a lot of sense, and passive item charge regeneration - particularly one tied to the strength of the soul powering the enchantment - would have allowed for the creation of items with functionally-infinite charge as long as the enchantment remained within some power limit.

[Vinyadan]

I don't think exclusive recharging through soul gems is fun, so the competition for me is between slow recharge and infinite charges. I think the preference depends on the damage formula. If you have a formula like "with low skill, you will do more damage with this flaming iron shortsword, but, if your skill increases, you are better off with an unenchanted steel shortsword", then you can have infinite charges for enchanted weapons. The problem is when enchanted, low tier weapons are just better than rare, unenchanted higher tier weapons, as upgrading your gear is part of the fun. Of course, if the game lets you find enchanted daedric or ebony weapons, the problem really isn't there, but I think Morrowind and maybe Skyrim didn't really have such weapons. Morrowind random creatures that spawn with high tier weapons, like Golden Saints and Dremora Lords, can appear with ebony or daedric weapons, but they are always unenchanted.

Let's say that, generally speaking, I like the idea of slow recharge that be aided through soul gems, but I wish it could be much faster and doable by just pressing a hotkey. Maybe add an option to set which souls not to use, though...

About enchanted items, I was surprised at how nice it felt to have no constant effect jewels. I could just swap magic items and forget about it. Instead, when you have your ideal combo of always casting items, each time you use something else, then you must remember to put everything back as it was.

[veti]

I agree, I also miss Morrowind's item charge regeneration. Also all the "wearable" equipment slots it gave you: to me it made a lot of sense to be wearing trousers under my armour, and there's no reason why they couldn't have an enchantment of their own. I do miss that in the later games.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I agree, I also miss Morrowind's item charge regeneration. Also all the "wearable" equipment slots it gave you: to me it made a lot of sense to be wearing trousers under my armour, and there's no reason why they couldn't have an enchantment of their own. I do miss that in the later games.

I still think it's odd that you can't wear rings on both hands in Skyrim.

[veti]

I still think it's odd that you can't wear rings on both hands in Skyrim.

I've been playing with left-handed rings for so long, I almost contradicted you there. Some mods just feel like part of the game, y'know?

[Vinyadan]

I still think it's odd that you can't wear rings on both hands in Skyrim.

I think it's because of how powerful enchanting is in Skyrim. I don't remember exactly how the effects are divided among slots, but even just one more slot lets you cast (more) spells for free. That's something you notice with an otherwise innocent mod like the one that lets you wear cloaks.

On the other hand, Morrowind had a borderline unusable version of enchanting, so you were likely staking powerful items, but nothing quite that game changing (except for when you found the amulet of shadows and the ring the Emperor sent you, which together gave you 100% chameleon on demand).

[veti]

What I liked about Morrowind's enchanting - apart from the fact that you could do it anywhere, which saved my bacon more than once - was the concept of enchanting capacity varying between different items and materials. It's the only really good reason I've ever seen for using heavy armour - because ebony can support stronger enchantments than glass.

[Spore]

I think it's because of how powerful enchanting is in Skyrim. I don't remember exactly how the effects are divided among slots, but even just one more slot lets you cast (more) spells for free. That's something you notice with an otherwise innocent mod like the one that lets you wear cloaks.

Do you really think ANYTHING in Skyrim was made for balance bar the absolute minimum? Well, I assume it was not made because Enchanting (the skill) is so powerful, but because stacking similar enchantments (on ingame items) is too powerful. Similar to how maxed enchanting (now its the skill!) mage sets exactly give 100% cost reduction on one school of magic.

Again, if Skyrim cared about balance, all they needed to do was remove enchantments from the restoration school of magic to untyped to prevent alchemy/enchantment loops.

[factotum]

On the other hand, Morrowind had a borderline unusable version of enchanting, so you were likely staking powerful items, but nothing quite that game changing

Well, except the released game (not sure if they ever fixed this) had a very simple loop whereby you could enchant an item with Fortify Enchant, then wear that item to create a more powerful Fortify Enchant item, and keep going until you had silly levels of Enchant skill and could put ridiculously powerful effects on items.

[Aeson]

Well, except the released game (not sure if they ever fixed this) had a very simple loop whereby you could enchant an item with Fortify Enchant, then wear that item to create a more powerful Fortify Enchant item, and keep going until you had silly levels of Enchant skill and could put ridiculously powerful effects on items.

Never 'fixed,' though if I am not mistaken it was very difficult to obtain a Fortify Skill effect prior to the expansions as the only obtainable spell in the game with the effect was Mephala's Skill, which was the reward for completing Threads of the Webspinner, and good luck doing that without a guide.

Regardless, Fortify Intelligence effects did much the same thing, and the alchemy loop's a lot easier than the enchanting loop since it's easier to get Fortify Intelligence ingredients than filled soul gems from merchants.

[Vinyadan]

Well, except the released game (not sure if they ever fixed this) had a very simple loop whereby you could enchant an item with Fortify Enchant, then wear that item to create a more powerful Fortify Enchant item, and keep going until you had silly levels of Enchant skill and could put ridiculously powerful effects on items.

They partially corrected it, in the sense that you don't have access to fortify skill spells in the main game after a certain patch. They allowed it again with Mournhold and Bloodmoon, however.

To be honest, I've never had the patience for this sort of things, in spite of having a habit of training my characters by casting spells in empty rooms. But I've read that you can cast fortify skill on trainers to make them train you beyond your own skill, and that's something I'd like. Now I wonder if one could use fortify attribute as a way to train a skill beyond its controlling attribute.

Do you really think ANYTHING in Skyrim was made for balance bar the absolute minimum? Well, I assume it was not made because Enchanting (the skill) is so powerful, but because stacking similar enchantments (on ingame items) is too powerful. Similar to how maxed enchanting (now its the skill!) mage sets exactly give 100% cost reduction on one school of magic.

Again, if Skyrim cared about balance, all they needed to do was remove enchantments from the restoration school of magic to untyped to prevent alchemy/enchantment loops.

Yep, that's why I think that it's very powerful, it lets you cast spells for free by staking enchanted items you can produce yourself. Add an item, that's one more cost-free school. And it's doable while lumbering around covered in daedric armour. To tell the truth, however, I think that it makes for a nice skill capstone. It really changes how you play. But it shouldn't be expanded to too many schools at the same time.

As far as Skyrim balance goes, no idea -- certain perks are very strong, like destruction's Impact, which lets you interrupt dragon attacks. But I've never felt the call of e.g. the sneaky archer, and much of Oblivion's far better balance than Morrowind's was carried over.

[Triaxx]

I mean you wave the balance flag, but... It's a single player game. If I want to keep the balance I just... Don't use the loop. Also it's a fair bit of work. Especially when I could just TGM and be invincible.

On the other hand invincible godhood while fun sometimes does get boring.

[LibraryOgre]

One of the most powerful spells in Morrowind, incidentally, was Damage Intelligence... combine it with Damage Strength and it became a killer. I remember doing Fort Firemoth with a Damage Intelligence, and just slammed the lich at the end. No Intelligence, no Magicka, and utterly harmless.

[veti]

I mean you wave the balance flag, but... It's a single player game. If I want to keep the balance I just... Don't use the loop.

Exactly. In ten years of playing Skyrim, I've never used it. Of course the past nine or so of those years I've been using the unofficial patch, which blocks it anyway, and more recently reinforced with a homemade patch that caps the casting cost reduction you can achieve for any school at 75%...

Yes, Skyrim is poorly balanced. Oddly enough, though, if you look at the popular mods and how they sell themselves, it seems as if "balance" is on virtually no-one's wishlist.

[Anteros]

Well, there are some games people play to be challenged, and some games people play for power fantasies. Skyrim is definitely the latter.

[Triaxx]

I mean I can and have modded Skyrim to make it a challenge. If you want to melee in my Skyrim you'd better be fast and deadly.

[Anteros]

You can mod it to have Thomas the Tank Engine flying through the sky ridden by Master Chief as well, but it's hardly the standard or intended experience.