The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

[Spore]

Yeah. From my understanding, a save file's instability grows with time, and while Skyrim is better about it than Oblivion, every save either dies fun or lives long enough to become unplayable.

One of the benefits of Special Edition is eliminating or at least drastically reducing that issue.

The switch from 32 bit to 64 bit is the major player in this. You can cram so much more stuff into a 64 bit database before it catches fire.

[Vinyadan]

Vanilla Morrowind indeed doesn't have actual darkness, and can be played without touching a torch or casting a light spell (which would need to be created with spellmaking, since the on target versions don't make much sense).

However, the HDR is REALLY strong: to the point where I can drive around with the boots of blinding speed and almost no visual impairment, because it automatically lightens up the scene.

I noticed with a Skyrim mod that I liked a more realistic approach to lighting, as long as the game gives you a way to enhance your sight, and Morrowind has handheld torches and two spells for that. It just feels more immersive to me.

About the moons, I would love a mod that makes them shine light like the sun. Dark night, then Masser (or secunda, I'm not sure which one is which) comes up, and now it's a blood-red night! Maybe complete with phase-based changes in luminosity. Morrowind does have a sunlight setting for the night, but it really represents the overall light coming from the sky.

[Aeson]

Whether or not vanilla Morrowind is bright enough that you don't need a light depends on your computer - it's fine on my desktop, but on my laptop a number of the less well-lit caves are too dark, especially if their walls are of the darker stone, and increasing the gamma setting made the day too bright.

[LibraryOgre]

The lighting was "fine" on my PC for Morrowind, but light potions were incredibly cheap and easy to make. I would fly through the air, shining like the sun and glimmering with magical items. Or leap across the landscape, like the god that I was.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

About the moons, I would love a mod that makes them shine light like the sun. Dark night, then Masser (or secunda, I'm not sure which one is which) comes up, and now it's a blood-red night! Maybe complete with phase-based changes in luminosity. Morrowind does have a sunlight setting for the night, but it really represents the overall light coming from the sky.

Second this. I would also like to see tides by the coast - in fact that might be an easy way to get the everyone-can-access-everything aspect into a map that’s half underwater: make it only underwater at high tide.

[Vinyadan]

Second this. I would also like to see tides by the coast - in fact that might be an easy way to get the everyone-can-access-everything aspect into a map that’s half underwater: make it only underwater at high tide.

You know, that doesn't sound impossible. MWSE allowed modding in a lot of new stuff, like sheathing weapons like in Oblivion (there's a lot of armed people around, it turns out). A mod that changes sea level in a loop based on the hour of the day or every x hours might be doable. The game already contains a command to change water height, although it currently only works in interiors.

I've had to leave my dark night ambitions behind. I found a shader that repairs banding, but I noticed that, with my settings, mornings looked absolutely awful.

[Spore]

The lighting was "fine" on my PC for Morrowind, but light potions were incredibly cheap and easy to make. I would fly through the air, shining like the sun and glimmering with magical items. Or leap across the landscape, like the god that I was.

As someone who played Morrowind on the original Xbox, the lighting engine blew me out of the water. It lagged like hell and had fog everywhere when you used the Scroll of Icarus flight, but the first sunrise after basically sleeping in the mud on the westcoast between Seyda Neen and Balmorra was glorious, even if the island is still a mud and ash covered hellhole.

But the nights were bright moonlit starry nights. Dark were the caves. I recall the Dwemer ruins next to Balmorra being extremely dark. Normal caves were acceptable, but usually they had braziers or torches lining the walls.

[Fyraltari]

This is a bit of a niche question, but... I know that you can join the Morag Tong in Morrowind. I never did, because I don't like sneaky characters very much. When you do, can you find anything there that confirms it was them who killed the Akaviri Potentate Versidue-Shaie? Because I always thought that the whole "the assasin wrote "Morag Tong" on a wall with the blood of the victim" thing sounded like a transparent attempt by a third party to frame them.

[Anteros]

This is a bit of a niche question, but... I know that you can join the Morag Tong in Morrowind. I never did, because I don't like sneaky characters very much. When you do, can you find anything there that confirms it was them who killed the Akaviri Potentate Versidue-Shaie? Because I always thought that the whole "the assasin wrote "Morag Tong" on a wall with the blood of the victim" thing sounded like a transparent attempt by a third party to frame them.

Morag tong assassinations are legal. You can walk up to someone in broad daylight, stab them in the face, hand your papers to the guard, and be on your way. Framing them for a murder seems like something that could be easily disproven.

[Fyraltari]

Morag tong assassinations are legal. You can walk up to someone in broad daylight, stab them in the face, hand your papers to the guard, and be on your way. Framing them for a murder seems like something that could be easily disproven.

Legal in Morrowind. Which was not part of the Empire at all at the time.

[Spore]

Because I always thought that the whole "the assasin wrote "Morag Tong" on a wall with the blood of the victim" thing sounded like a transparent attempt by a third party to frame them.

I agree in this case. But understand that laws are just a commonly accepted bunch of ruleswork, and that they apply depending on circumstance. I don't think the Morag Tong could handwave an assassination this large even with a small paper, because there are influential polticians on the side of the murdered that dont give a crap about a murder contract if it targets one of their most influential benefactors.

Imagine two of the three large houses of Morrowind support the Potentate. Imagine the third house hires the Morag Tong to kill him. Would you really think they would not react at the murder at all? This is enough cause for a civil war, or a coup d'etat at the slightest.

[Fyraltari]

I agree in this case. But understand that laws are just a commonly accepted bunch of ruleswork, and that they apply depending on circumstance. I don't think the Morag Tong could handwave an assassination this large even with a small paper, because there are influential polticians on the side of the murdered that dont give a crap about a murder contract if it targets one of their most influential benefactors.

Imagine two of the three large houses of Morrowind support the Potentate. Imagine the third house hires the Morag Tong to kill him. Would you really think they would not react at the murder at all? This is enough cause for a civil war, or a coup d'etat at the slightest.

Did you mean to quote me? Because I don't understand how that relates to what you quoted.

In any case, I doubt the murder of the ruler of the Empire would cause that much trouble in Morrowind. The Tribunal was still at full power at the time, so their word was law and that was it.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

This is a bit of a niche question, but... I know that you can join the Morag Tong in Morrowind. I never did, because I don't like sneaky characters very much. When you do, can you find anything there that confirms it was them who killed the Akaviri Potentate Versidue-Shaie? Because I always thought that the whole "the assasin wrote "Morag Tong" on a wall with the blood of the victim" thing sounded like a transparent attempt by a third party to frame them.

Can't speak to Morrowind, but ESO does. There's a quest in Hakoshae (N. Elsweyr DLC) where the descendant of that assassin is looking into rumors that a descendant of the Potentate survived.

...Which grated on me for a number of reasons including 'bad puzzle design', 'you can't stab the assassin in the face because he's a reoccurring character', and 'Naryu said the Tong lost a lot of reputation for that assassination spree so why are they letting this idiot pull the scabs off old wounds', but nevermind.

[Fyraltari]

Can't speak to Morrowind, but ESO does. There's a quest in Hakoshae (N. Elsweyr DLC) where the descendant of that assassin is looking into rumors that a descendant of the Potentate survived.

...Which grated on me for a number of reasons including 'bad puzzle design', 'you can't stab the assassin in the face because he's a reoccurring character', and 'Naryu said the Tong lost a lot of reputation for that assassination spree so why are they letting this idiot pull the scabs off old wounds', but nevermind.

Huh, so I guess they really did become that reckless.

Did they confirm that the reason they assassinated Versidue-Shaie was because he was the one who hired them to murder Reman III and then double-crossed them, as is frequently speculated both in-and out-of-universe?

[Aeson]

I don't believe that any of the Morag Tong members in Morrowind have dialogue related to the assassination of the Potentate.

It's worth bearing in mind that the assassination of Versidue-Shaie occurred almost a thousand years before the events of Morrowind - Versidue-Shaie was killed in 2E 324, the Second Era ends 562 years later in 2E 896, and the events of Morrowind are set in 3E 427. Even elves don't typically live that long - the millennarian Telvanni wizards are an exception, not the rule, and I believe the oldest elves with known ages otherwise are Barenziah (~430 in Tribunal; possibly at a point in the elven lifespan similar to a human woman of about 50 given that her daughter Morgiah was born in 3E 384, when Barenziah was ~387, and thus if she's past child-bearing age it's not by that much, relatively speaking) Symmachus (~422 when killed during riots in 3E 391), and Vorian Direnni (611 by his own account at the time of authoring De Rerum Dirennis). As such, the Morag Tong as it appears in Morrowind is probably at least one and a half to two full elven lifespans removed from the Morag Tong that may have killed Versidue-Shaie and claimed responsibility for it in his own blood even using the longer many-hundred-year lifespans implied in some of the in-game material rather than the shorter 200- or 300-year lifespans indicated in most of the more recent (Oblivion onwards) material; active lifespan, particularly in a hazardous occupation such as assassination, is likely shorter and so there could easily be ten or more generations of Morag Tong between the characters you meet in Morrowind and the Morag Tong that assassinated Versidue-Shaie.

Assuming that it was the Morag Tong, I also wouldn't be terribly surprised if any Morag Tong members with much knowledge of that assassination were long since dead, either hunted down and killed during the continent-wide crackdown resulting from the killing, eliminated by the Morag Tong itself for bringing such disastrous consequences down on the organization, or slain in a shadow war with the Dark Brotherhood which seems to have been under way by no later than 2E 360.

As to it really being the Morag Tong: Claiming responsibility for the deed might not have been the wisest course of action, but, looking at certain events in the real world, I can't say I find it particularly unbelievable, especially for an organization accustomed to operating with impunity or something close to it throughout Tamriel despite technically being an outlawed organization. It also wouldn't terribly surprise me if it was something the (presumably then-nascent) Dark Brotherhood did either while still a (rogue) faction within the Morag Tong or as a first blow in the shadow war between the two assassins' guilds (mind you, I don't believe that the Dark Brotherhood is known to have existed much before 2E 360, and at that stage it's more an implied than confirmed existence) - but framing your competitor for what is in some respects an excellent demonstration of your skill in the services you offer has some drawbacks.

[Vinyadan]

I think that there is an important factor about they Morag Tong: they are Daedra worshippers. While that was normal for the Chimer, the Morag Tong have an actual altar dedicated to the veneration of Mephala in the times of the Nerevarine, in an era when Daedra worshippers aren't integrated with society at all (Dunmer are supposed not to venerate the Daedra, even the good ones).

So I don't consider it impossible that they used to be more extreme in their worship, and Mephala, for some reason, decided to have them do a couple of huge hits (they killed an Emperor and the relative successor), after which the Morag Tong found themselves banned all over Tamriel except in Morrowind, which wasn't part of the Empire. After that, there could have been a discussion between Almsivi and either their leader or Mephala directly, to make them part of the House system and make House wars less deadly by targeted assassination. (interestingly, Mephala is said to have taught the Dunmer to build Houses, with a capital H).

The schism with the Dark Brotherhood also seems to have happened around the time the Potentate was killed, which could be explained by the sudden division between the legal Morag Tong in Morrowind and its illegal part in the Empire that had become completely autonomous. But the schism might have had already happened by then, and the Brotherhood simply killed the Potentate to put the blame on the Morag Tong.

Anyway, a book hints to the fact that the Morag Tong survive because it's the Tribunal's will. Not much that the Houses can do about it. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Fire_and_Darkness

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Huh, so I guess they really did become that reckless.

Did they confirm that the reason they assassinated Versidue-Shaie was because he was the one who hired them to murder Reman III and then double-crossed them, as is frequently speculated both in-and out-of-universe?

It didn't go into that level of detail.

Spoiler: Quest Summary

Show

You start the quest by talking to Ashur, a Morag Tong assassin whose grandfather was the assassin who wiped out the Potentate's heirs. He's in Hakoshae because he heard rumors the leader of the town, one Feina-Darak, is descended from said Potentate and he's here to clean up any loose ends he might find. But she gets kidnapped by the ghost of one of the assassinated heirs, who is mad at her because apparently she's NOT his descendant - her ancestor was his bodyguard who bailed on him and stole his identity.

So not much about the politics of why they wanted the Potentate's line dead.

[Keltest]

I agree in this case. But understand that laws are just a commonly accepted bunch of ruleswork, and that they apply depending on circumstance. I don't think the Morag Tong could handwave an assassination this large even with a small paper, because there are influential polticians on the side of the murdered that dont give a crap about a murder contract if it targets one of their most influential benefactors.

Imagine two of the three large houses of Morrowind support the Potentate. Imagine the third house hires the Morag Tong to kill him. Would you really think they would not react at the murder at all? This is enough cause for a civil war, or a coup d'etat at the slightest.

Theoretically, the whole point of the Tong is specifically to avoid that outcome. Regardless of your personal feelings on the subject or their politics, if a Writ shows up for that person and they are killed by the Morag Tong, then sucks to be them, but its time to move on and figure out what to do going forward.

[Triaxx]

I personally don't worry much about the Tong worshipping a Daedra. It's not like DB are followers of the god of happy bunnies.

[Fyraltari]

As to it really being the Morag Tong: Claiming responsibility for the deed might not have been the wisest course of action, but, looking at certain events in the real world, I can't say I find it particularly unbelievable, especially for an organization accustomed to operating with impunity or something close to it throughout Tamriel despite technically being an outlawed organization. It also wouldn't terribly surprise me if it was something the (presumably then-nascent) Dark Brotherhood did either while still a (rogue) faction within the Morag Tong or as a first blow in the shadow war between the two assassins' guilds (mind you, I don't believe that the Dark Brotherhood is known to have existed much before 2E 360, and at that stage it's more an implied than confirmed existence) - but framing your competitor for what is in some respects an excellent demonstration of your skill in the services you offer has some drawbacks.

I am a fan of the theory that the Night Nother is none other than Mephala. If the Tong had gotten sloppy enough to attract attentio like that, it could make sense for her to create the Dark Brotherhood and initiate a shadow war if only to force everybody involved to hone their skills.

I also hadn't thought of the (future?) Dark Brotherhood as potential culprits (I was thinking of Savirien-Chorak) but it makes sense.

After that, there could have been a discussion between Almsivi and either their leader or Mephala directly, to make them part of the House system and make House wars less deadly by targeted assassination. (interestingly, Mephala is said to have taught the Dunmer to build Houses, with a capital H).

I think this was already the purpose of the Morag Tong during the First Era, going back at least to the rise of the Tribunal, possibly even before.

It didn't go into that level of detail.

Spoiler: Quest Summary

Show

You start the quest by talking to Ashur, a Morag Tong assassin whose grandfather was the assassin who wiped out the Potentate's heirs. He's in Hakoshae because he heard rumors the leader of the town, one Feina-Darak, is descended from said Potentate and he's here to clean up any loose ends he might find. But she gets kidnapped by the ghost of one of the assassinated heirs, who is mad at her because apparently she's NOT his descendant - her ancestor was his bodyguard who bailed on him and stole his identity.

So not much about the politics of why they wanted the Potentate's line dead.

Hold on. When the Tong killed Versidue-Shaie, they definitely left his heir, Savirien-Chorak alive (he probably was elsewhere than Elsweyr on the continent) since he ruled for another hundred years before the Dark Brotherhood murdered him and his heirs. What's going on there?

Also, the ghost of a Tsaesci showed up? Did he have legs?

[DigoDragon]

Yeah. From my understanding, a save file's instability grows with time, and while Skyrim is better about it than Oblivion, every save either dies fun or lives long enough to become unplayable.

Aye, it definitely is much more stable than my "Oldrim" playthroughs. Since I know what mods cause the occasional crash, I can see about working around them and play this character until the save files become completely unplayable.

[halfeye]

Yeah. From my understanding, a save file's instability grows with time, and while Skyrim is better about it than Oblivion, every save either dies fun or lives long enough to become unplayable.

Really? in Skyrim without mods?

I know that was the case in later versions of Oblivion, but I was also aware that there were utilities that claimed to (temporarily but repeatably) fix that, at least one of which worked.

[Resileaf]

Really? in Skyrim without mods?

I know that was the case in later versions of Oblivion, but I was also aware that there were utilities that claimed to (temporarily but repeatably) fix that, at least one of which worked.

It's just an inevitable result of the game eventually becoming unable to calculate every new variable in the world as it changes. Because it's an open world, with so many people and creatures that it has to track, the information bloat becomes too much for the game to handle. I imagine those utilities to mention clean up the process by removing uneeded tracking.

[Spore]

It's not like DB are followers of the god of happy bunnies.

Oh, Sithis is actually a cool and calming concept. It is more the necrophilia and sanctification of a eons old corpse that creeps me out. Eternal silence and darkness can feel calming; ignoring the obvious connection to real world mental illness.

[Fyraltari]

Oh, Sithis is actually a cool and calming concept. It is more the necrophilia and sanctification of a eons old corpse that creeps me out. Eternal silence and darkness can feel calming; ignoring the obvious connection to real world mental illness.

You do remember the part where they worship him by murdering people, right?

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Hold on. When the Tong killed Versidue-Shaie, they definitely left his heir, Savirien-Chorak alive (he probably was elsewhere than Elsweyr on the continent) since he ruled for another hundred years before the Dark Brotherhood murdered him and his heirs. What's going on there?

Also, the ghost of a Tsaesci showed up? Did he have legs?

*double-checks*

What exactly is the Akaviri Potentate?
"Potentate Versidue-Shaie began his political career as advisor to Emperor Reman III. When the emperor was assassinated, the potentate stepped up as Cyrodiil's leader.
Very fortunate for Versidue-Shaie, of course. He was emperor in all but name."
Did Versidue-Shaie plot the assassination?
"So goes the rumors, though nothing was ever proven.
Unsurprisingly, an Akaviri on the Ruby Throne created conflict. The Potentate was eventually assassinated himself. A few decades later, his heir was similarly slain."
Who assassinated them?
"The Morag Tong, of course. Who else would be so competent?
Following the death of Potentate Savirien-Chorak and his heirs, a large number of Akaviri and their followers left Cyrodiil. Many wound up here, in Elsweyr."
I'd like to hear more about your grandfather's legacy.
"As an agent of the Morag Tong, my grandfather had the honor of executing the last remaining heir of the Akaviri Potentate.
But here's the tricky bit; my grandfather and the heir both disappeared during the attempt. The Morag Tong presumed them dead

Source.

Re: legs, yes he did.

[Fyraltari]

*double-checks*



Source.

Re: legs, yes he did.

Okay, so apparently the claim that Savirien-Chorak was murdered by the Dark Brotherhood comes from the book Brotherhood of Darkness... who dates back to ye olden days of Daggerfall and also claims that the Dark Brotherhood is simply the Morag Tong after some reorganization and rebranding, so not exactly reliable when it comes to Current Lore^TM.

So I guess, it's canon (as far as that goes) that both Potentates were killed by the Mora Tong. Well, that's cleared up, thanks!

Also, one more data-point for the Tsaesci being East-Asian looking humans with a heavy snake cultural motif rather than vampiric snakefolks.

[Spore]

You do remember the part where they worship him by murdering people, right?

To be fair, people can become annoying. I take offense in the part where they take gold for it.

[halfeye]

It's just an inevitable result of the game eventually becoming unable to calculate every new variable in the world as it changes. Because it's an open world, with so many people and creatures that it has to track, the information bloat becomes too much for the game to handle. I imagine those utilities to mention clean up the process by removing uneeded tracking.

With Oblivion it was one particular variable that had a limit value, which when crossed made all the fires and doors a bit strange and totally ruined the your movement rate. The fix just set that variable back to zero, and it would presumably go up over it's limit value if you kept playing long enough, and if it did that fix could be applied again.

[Vinyadan]

I often find myself wondering at just how far Morrowind modding has gone. Here are some examples.

Enhanced detection and telekynesis make these spells work in real time. This improves usability by a lot. It feels good to water-walk, notice some kollops beneath your feet, and cast telekynesis to open them for pearls. https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/47480 https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/47534

Enhanced light turns the light spell into the version from Skyrim, with a floating ball of light. I love this version. https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/47672

Enchanced reflection causes target spells to literally bounce from their target. https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/48956 It works, although it doesn't come up that often for me.

I talked about opening kollops; that's something you can really do now https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/42238 https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/49297 for opening at mouseover

Perfect placement to decorate your room and walls with your trophies or stuff you like https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/46562

Also, Tamriel Rebuilt is insane. It might be the best mod ever made. The cities and towns are mostly fantastic. The only thing I feel like saying is that the quests move in the right direction, but sometimes stop just short of going the extra mile and being very, very good.