The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

[Vinyadan]

How big that thing is is also pretty difficult to clear: buildings in Morrowind are often bigger inside than outside, and the geography itself is in many ways symbolic (there are different calculations of Vvardenfell's actal size, from 31,000 square miles using Daggerfall to about a third extrapolating from the books, to 16 square km for the playable Vvardenfell).
So how high, how big, how fast are all up in the air (and so is how deep the sea around Vivec would be, which would change the severity of the tsunami if it were to fall inside the water.)

[veti]

So how high, how big, how fast are all up in the air (and so is how deep the sea around Vivec would be, which would change the severity of the tsunami if it were to fall inside the water.)

My recollection is that the sea is pretty shallow there, such that if the thing merely dropped gently into the water, it likely wouldn't be completely submerged.

I don't know, but intuitively it feels like there must be some minimum depth and space of water required to allow a tsunami to be generated. If the rock was heading for the city, I don't think the splash would do it. (The subsequent earthquake, on the other hand...)

[Kareeah_Indaga]

So how high, how big, how fast are all up in the air (and so is how deep the sea around Vivec would be, which would change the severity of the tsunami if it were to fall inside the water.)

IIRC it was pointed at a canton.

[Vinyadan]

Has anyone played Morroblivion recently? Any opinion? I used to think it wasn't worth playing, then I saw a video of Balmora with Oblivion lighting, and my jaw dropped.

[Vinyadan]

OK, some impressions about Morroblivion.

The most important one is that this isn't Morrowind, it's Oblivion with Morrowind assets and spells. So I find that, if you like the Morrowind setting and want to play it out in a new way, this is really good, probably better than any Morrowind mod. Oblivion had a lot of improvements over the Morrowind engine, from mere interface elements to radiant AI to how light works, and you find it all in Morroblivion. Since I am mostly into the Morrowind setting, I find that the AI in particular adds a lot: you see NPCs wandering around that used to never leave their home, clubs fill when it's lunchtime, taverns when it's night time, guards work in shifts, people with instruments actually play them, or read, or eat.

I opted for a thief playthrough (something I have never done in a TES game) and the Oblivion interface helps a lot: you don't have to hold CTRL to sneak, you don't have to swap to a lockpick, and you can see beforehand if what you are doing is illegal. Detect life also works directly on-screen. The fences system is interesting, although I guess it has both benefits and negatives (you may never get high prices for some products, and you cannot sell all stolen goods or at all times of day; I think it simply needs adjusting). Radiant AI also is really cool to have: you can choose the time of day or night for your thefts, and this will change the status and position of NPCs. A novice thief will get a lot out of working at night, while an expert will be able to work well even during the day. I also liked the ability to escape from jail, although reloading the game always ends up being the easiest thing... although you can use jail as another fast transportation method.

Now, the negative. Morroblivion takes some time to install and isn't as simple as I'd like it to be, because it requires a good number of other plugins. More importantly, it is playable and it is still being developed, but it does contain a few bugs, like some doors not connecting to cells or certain quests or dialogues not updating (there's a document online with quest IDs and stages so you can update them manually). Another thing I noticed is that two quests break all saves made after they have been completed (Yngling's Game Rats and buying Vudunius Nuccius' Cursed Ring). Light still seeps through assets, although it's rarely noticeable. The Oblivion dialogue system is very different from Morrowind's, and it's more difficult to handle all of those topics. Parts of the conversion are automatic, so sometimes magic items don't actually work like they should.

Keep in mind that there still are patches coming out, one of them during my playthrough (I haven't installed it because it required a new game). Overall, I think it's a fun mod to try, if you keep in mind that it's still not at v 1.0.

[Caelestion]

I thought that they were done with Morroblivion years ago.

[Vinyadan]

I thought that they were done with Morroblivion years ago.

Apparently, it's still getting updates. By the way, it's possible that the problems I've had don't directly depend on Morroblivion, as I was using other mods with it.

[Anteros]

I didn't even know Morroblivion was a thing. I've heard of Skywind, but this is the first I've heard of an Oblivion version.

Normally I treat most of these mods like vaporware since they don't usually ever actually reach a completed state, but it sounds like this one actually came close. That's interesting.

Honestly, the best Elder Scrolls game I've played in years was Enderal (despite the overarching plot being terrible), so maybe it's worth giving another mod a shot.

[veti]

I didn't even know Morroblivion was a thing. I've heard of Skywind, but this is the first I've heard of an Oblivion version.

Normally I treat most of these mods like vaporware since they don't usually ever actually reach a completed state, but it sounds like this one actually came close. That's interesting.

Honestly, the best Elder Scrolls game I've played in years was Enderal (despite the overarching plot being terrible), so maybe it's worth giving another mod a shot.

Well, considering it's a colossal amount of unpaid work by fans, I'm really impressed to learn that Morroblivion has made so much progress. Of course, it had several years' head start over Skywind.

Enderal was cool, but if I understand correctly, it was made by a professional team with an actual budget. So it should have been better than most fan-made efforts. Even so, frankly I don't rate it as highly as, say, Vigilant.

[DigoDragon]

I was delving into some barrows in Skyrim to collect treasures for the Dragonborn museum, and I noticed the places I went had similar themes of "people poked into crypt, draugar reanimate and murder everyone".

So then I got to thinking; if all these dragons coming back are due to a powerful dragon shout, what if there's an unintentional side effect that it's also reanimating other dead beings?

Just a thought.

[Rater202]

I was delving into some barrows in Skyrim to collect treasures for the Dragonborn museum, and I noticed the places I went had similar themes of "people poked into crypt, draugar reanimate and murder everyone".

So then I got to thinking; if all these dragons coming back are due to a powerful dragon shout, what if there's an unintentional side effect that it's also reanimating other dead beings?

Just a thought.

Or the ancient nords who mummified their dead put curses on their tombs.

[Resileaf]

Nobody's really surprised that there are undead in Nord tombs, so yeah, probably common curses.

[Keltest]

I think the official lore is that the Draugr maintain the tombs periodically and contribute life force to dragon priests and the equivalent draugr bosses at the end of the dungeon to keep them alive.

[Grim Portent]

Well the original Draugr from Bloodmoon were cursed for engaging in cannibalism as I recall, and were at the time supposed to be a Solstheim only thing. Pre-dragon cult lore which has basically been overwritten.


The draugr found in Skyrim are primarily dragon cultists, though some like King Olaf presumably came long after the dragon cult fell, and seem to be animated by ancient oaths and spells binding them to eternal service. I forget the name of the Barrow, the one where they all poisoned themselves, but the idea there seems to be that in doing so they would serve the dragons forever, dying and returning until the end of time.

Whatever means they used to animate themselves are probably not directly dragon related, because post-dragon cult draugr exist, so it's probably a form of ceremonial necromancy similar to what the Dunmer do with ancestor guardians which fell out of fashion some time ago.

[Fyraltari]

It's possible that, while Draugr roaming the barrows were always a thing, the return of the dragons woke them all up.

[veti]

Well the original Draugr from Bloodmoon were cursed for engaging in cannibalism as I recall, and were at the time supposed to be a Solstheim only thing. Pre-dragon cult lore which has basically been overwritten.


The draugr found in Skyrim are primarily dragon cultists, though some like King Olaf presumably came long after the dragon cult fell, and seem to be animated by ancient oaths and spells binding them to eternal service. I forget the name of the Barrow, the one where they all poisoned themselves, but the idea there seems to be that in doing so they would serve the dragons forever, dying and returning until the end of time.

Whatever means they used to animate themselves are probably not directly dragon related, because post-dragon cult draugr exist, so it's probably a form of ceremonial necromancy similar to what the Dunmer do with ancestor guardians which fell out of fashion some time ago.

I was looking at a mod just the other day that changes the draugr on Solstheim to be more compatible with Bloodmoon lore, but mainland Skyrim is a whole different bowl of undead.

There's an in-game book by some... necrologist, I suppose you could call her, who claims to have lived among the draugr for months, studying them. It was clearly written before Alduin's return, and definitely implies that the draugr have been a continuous presence in Skyrim ever since the time of the dragon cult.

But the presence of post-dragon-cult draugr raises an interesting point. Because for several ages, this "ceremonial necromancy" must have been pretty widely known - so why has it been completely forgotten now? It's not just that nobody does it any more, it's pretty clear nobody has even the faintest inkling of how it was ever done.

[Fyraltari]

I was looking at a mod just the other day that changes the draugr on Solstheim to be more compatible with Bloodmoon lore, but mainland Skyrim is a whole different bowl of undead.

There's an in-game book by some... necrologist, I suppose you could call her, who claims to have lived among the draugr for months, studying them. It was clearly written before Alduin's return, and definitely implies that the draugr have been a continuous presence in Skyrim ever since the time of the dragon cult.

But the presence of post-dragon-cult draugr raises an interesting point. Because for several ages, this "ceremonial necromancy" must have been pretty widely known - so why has it been completely forgotten now? It's not just that nobody does it any more, it's pretty clear nobody has even the faintest inkling of how it was ever done.

I would guess that at some point since Olaf One-Eye (I think he's the "latest" draugr in the game) someone adopted a harder stance on necromancy in Skyrim and had all (or most, I wouldn't put it past the Worm Cult to know the trick) the relevant records purged.

For example, this could have happened shortly after Thrassian Plague and the victory of the All-Flags Navy, with Nords seeing necromancy as the tool of the ennemy who nearly wiped out most of Tamriel's population.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I would guess that at some point since Olaf One-Eye (I think he's the "latest" draugr in the game) someone adopted a harder stance on necromancy in Skyrim and had all (or most, I wouldn't put it past the Worm Cult to know the trick) the relevant records purged.

For example, this could have happened shortly after Thrassian Plague and the victory of the All-Flags Navy, with Nords seeing necromancy as the tool of the ennemy who nearly wiped out most of Tamriel's population.

Doesn’t even have to be necromancy specifically. Nords have been suspicious of their ‘clever men’ since at least the Second Era.

[DigoDragon]

I think the official lore is that the Draugr maintain the tombs periodically and contribute life force to dragon priests and the equivalent draugr bosses at the end of the dungeon to keep them alive.

"Alive" in a loose sense of the word, considering their physical condition. Well, I suppose even if they were technically alive, that condition gets "corrected" by the Dragonborn real quick. XD


Anyway, common curses it is I suppose. It does make for a decent explanation of why there's fresh food found in the containers. Draugr are cleaning up the remains of foolish explorers and depositing their gear in the tombs.

[LibraryOgre]

I do like the idea that, while there may have always been draugr, they've gotten more prevalent since Alduin started shouting dragons awake.

[Grim Portent]

I would guess that at some point since Olaf One-Eye (I think he's the "latest" draugr in the game) someone adopted a harder stance on necromancy in Skyrim and had all (or most, I wouldn't put it past the Worm Cult to know the trick) the relevant records purged.

For example, this could have happened shortly after Thrassian Plague and the victory of the All-Flags Navy, with Nords seeing necromancy as the tool of the ennemy who nearly wiped out most of Tamriel's population.

I think the gradual increase in worship of the Imperial Pantheon is probably a big contributor, Arkay doesn't look fondly on the undead and isn't considered an antagonistic god like his Nordic counterpart Orkey, so the rise of the Imperial pantheon would directly impact the view of any necromancy or necromancy adjacent practices.

Another possibility is that after a war or plague, such as the Thrassian Plague, the sheer amount of bodies needing buried made the ritual burial to create draugr impractical, as well as the construction of new barrows in which to bury the dead, resulting in a shift to burying the dead in surface level cemetaries or mausoleums and crypts like those found in chapels to the Divines throughout the Empire.

Also possible it was just banned at some point by a king who opposed the practice, and the law stuck for long enough that the art was forgotten. The Nords of the fourth era don't seem the sort to want to make draugr anyway.

[veti]

I would guess that at some point since Olaf One-Eye (I think he's the "latest" draugr in the game) someone adopted a harder stance on necromancy in Skyrim and had all (or most, I wouldn't put it past the Worm Cult to know the trick) the relevant records purged.

For example, this could have happened shortly after Thrassian Plague and the victory of the All-Flags Navy, with Nords seeing necromancy as the tool of the ennemy who nearly wiped out most of Tamriel's population.

Potema was third-era, only 500-ish years before the time of Skyrim. It's possible that the catacombs that bear her name were made much earlier, and she merely appropriated them, but I don't know if there's any authoritative source to that effect. She also describes the last batch of draugr you meet down there as her "inner council".

[Aeson]

Potema was third-era, only 500-ish years before the time of Skyrim. It's possible that the catacombs that bear her name were made much earlier, and she merely appropriated them, but I don't know if there's any authoritative source to that effect. She also describes the last batch of draugr you meet down there as her "inner council".

Solitude's old enough for it, but to my recollection the area where you find Potema doesn't much look like it has an affiliation with the ancient Nords or the Dragon Cult.

Regardless, I don't think that anything more should be read into the use of draugr in the Potema dungeon/quest than that the development team didn't feel that creating another set of undead models for one quest in one dungeon was a worthwhile use of resources.

[Fyraltari]

It's also likely that the notion that the servants of a king ought to keep serving him in death fell out of fashion. There doesn't seem to be any servitude going on in Sovngarde.

[Caelestion]

Potema was also a necromancer, who went quite insane by the time she was defeated. It's entirely possible that her "inner council" were sapient undead, even whilst she was alive.

[LibraryOgre]

Potema was also a necromancer, who went quite insane by the time she was defeated. It's entirely possible that her "inner council" were sapient undead, even whilst she was alive.

Heck, they may have been ancient draugr that she particularly liked.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Potema was also a necromancer, who went quite insane by the time she was defeated. It's entirely possible that her "inner council" were sapient undead, even whilst she was alive.

Biography of the Wolf Queen somewhat supports this theory, or at least it mentions stories of vampiric generals.

[Spore]

It's also likely that the notion that the servants of a king ought to keep serving him in death fell out of fashion. There doesn't seem to be any servitude going on in Sovngarde.

Do you assume (unnamed) Draugr are more than just a body? The lore assumes as such I feel meaning they forsake Sovngarde for a limited (or eternal?) amount of time to serve their masters in (un)death. They do sentient work aside from fighting you as an intruder, so I assume they are specially bound (despite their abundance).

Seeing the lore that way I wish they were rarer in the dungeons now. They are special servants and I doubt many would willingly go into eternal servitude. But I fear this is an opt-out system, not a choice one makes.

[veti]

Notice how draugr can be soul trapped in regular "white" soul gems, whereas vampires require a black gem. That suggests their animating spirit, whatever it is, is a good deal weaker than when they were alive.

But Falmer, also, don't use a black gem, and I'm pretty sure they're both alive and sentient. (Has anyone succeeded in soul trapping either of the two uncorrupted snow elves we get to meet?) Hagravens, likewise. What's up with that?

[Fyraltari]

Do you assume (unnamed) Draugr are more than just a body?

I mean, they can speak.

The lore assumes as such I feel meaning they forsake Sovngarde for a limited (or eternal?) amount of time to serve their masters in (un)death. They do sentient work aside from fighting you as an intruder, so I assume they are specially bound (despite their abundance).

I don't think it's ever clearly stated whether an undead can exist while the soul is away (Flesh Atronachs aren't technically undead) but I think that's usually the case. Think of all the zombies who thank you when you kill them.

Seeing the lore that way I wish they were rarer in the dungeons now. They are special servants and I doubt many would willingly go into eternal servitude. But I fear this is an opt-out system, not a choice one makes.

You know the legends of the servants of kings being sacrificed during their burial so that they can serve in the afterlife? That seems to be like that, but with necromancy, and nobody was asking the servants' opinion.

Notice how draugr can be soul trapped in regular "white" soul gems, whereas vampires require a black gem. That suggests their animating spirit, whatever it is, is a good deal weaker than when they were alive.

But Falmer, also, don't use a black gem, and I'm pretty sure they're both alive and sentient. (Has anyone succeeded in soul trapping either of the two uncorrupted snow elves we get to meet?) Hagravens, likewise. What's up with that?

The white/black soul distinction exists primarily as a game-mecanic, I wouldn't put too much stock in it. Allegedly black souls denote true sapience and the Falmers gaining white souls is evidence of how monstruous what happened to them was. Except that giants, goblins, ogres and minotaurs are obviously as sapient as the player race (they have language, religion, use of tools, art and have formed their own societies, sometimes even mingled freely with playable races), but only get white souls.