The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Notice how draugr can be soul trapped in regular "white" soul gems, whereas vampires require a black gem. That suggests their animating spirit, whatever it is, is a good deal weaker than when they were alive.

But Falmer, also, don't use a black gem, and I'm pretty sure they're both alive and sentient. (Has anyone succeeded in soul trapping either of the two uncorrupted snow elves we get to meet?) Hagravens, likewise. What's up with that?

You can blame the Mages’ Guild for the arbitrary distinction.

Furthermore, I propose that for the purposes of soul-trapping we categorize all souls into two classes: the legal, or "White" souls, those smaller essences that are captured from beasts and animals, and illegal, or "Black" souls, which are derived from sentient mortals. And we will teach only those spells that can capture White souls, forbidding our students to use the larger soul gems on sentients.

Presumably the Mages’ Guild people in charge of implementing their standard Soul Trap spell either didn’t realize or (IMO more likely) didn’t care about the intelligent non-player races. So Giants and such are perfectly legal to Soul Trap despite being being smart.

Minor tangent: Gelebor does say the Falmer are getting more intelligent over time:

"Perhaps they'll never return to their former appearance, but over the centuries, I've noticed a rise in their intellect. If a line of communication could be established with them, maybe they can find peace. It's the only way they'll discover that they weren't always malignant... they were once a proud and prosperous race."

…so for their specific case, it might have been an easier mistake to make back when the spell was being standardized, assuming the people designing it cared in the first place.

[Fyraltari]

Problem with that is that black souls are indeed more potent than white souls (which maybe excused as a gameplay feature), and that Oblivion who introduced the division in the first place had the black soul gems be the creation of Mannimarco as a way of bypassing Arkay's Blessing (or Arkay's Law I always get them mixed up), which implies that black souls are those souls who are protected by Arkay and that Arkay is a racist douche.

[Rater202]

Problem with that is that black souls are indeed more potent than white souls (which maybe excused as a gameplay feature), and that Oblivion who introduced the division in the first place had the black soul gems be the creation of Mannimarco as a way of bypassing Arkay's Blessing (or Arkay's Law I always get them mixed up), which implies that black souls are those souls who are protected by Arkay and that Arkay is a racist douche.

Really? I always thought that Black Souls were considered Grand Souls?

[Fyraltari]

Really? I always thought that Black Souls were considered Grand Souls?

No, you're right, black soul gems have the same capacity as grand soul gems, they canjust store NPC souls. This is what I get for not checking.

Doesn't solve the Arkay/Mannimarco issue, though. Unless you consider ESO retcons Oblivion.

[Keltest]

Really? I always thought that Black Souls were considered Grand Souls?

They are, but the fact that the quality is consistent whether its a beggar in the street, the bodyguard of a duchess or the archmage of the mage's guild indicates an inherent potency to black souls that white souls don't have.


Its possible that Galerion chose to work on an existing metaphysical distinction when outlawing the trapping of black souls, which would make it easy to enforce, and that he outlawed whatever soul gem creation method had been introduced at the time because it created exclusively black soul gems of varying quality, which Mannimarco only managed to circumvent occasionally under the reign of the guild.

[Resileaf]

Really? I always thought that Black Souls were considered Grand Souls?

Which are more potent than 90% of any other soul you'll find.

[Rater202]

Who here has actually used Black Souls?

In Oblivion I was a big fan of the "enchant multiple pieces of gear with a Chameleon enchantment to get free non-dispellable invisibility" exploit and tended to build for it pretty quickly. I'd grab the Chamelon greater power from the stone, then join the Mage's guild ASAP to get a Soul Trapping Staff then would immediately head to one dungeon that had an alter, use it to manufacture black gems, and then head into the dungeon to kill the necromancer mobs inside to fill the gems.

Because I couldn't be assed to figure out what mobs had grand souls and honestly I liked the irony.

In SKyrim the only time I used a Black Soul Gem as during the Dark brotherhood storyline when soul-trapped the head of Emporer's Guard and used him to enchant the dagger I killed the Emporer with as revenge for his ransacking the sanctuary. Told a friend about that in high school and he was horrified...

[Keltest]

Who here has actually used Black Souls?

In Oblivion I was a big fan of the "enchant multiple pieces of gear with a Chameleon enchantment to get free non-dispellable invisibility" exploit and tended to build for it pretty quickly. I'd grab the Chamelon greater power from the stone, then join the Mage's guild ASAP to get a Soul Trapping Staff then would immediately head to one dungeon that had an alter, use it to manufacture black gems, and then head into the dungeon to kill the necromancer mobs inside to fill the gems.

Because I couldn't be assed to figure out what mobs had grand souls and honestly I liked the irony.

In SKyrim the only time I used a Black Soul Gem as during the Dark brotherhood storyline when soul-trapped the head of Emporer's Guard and used him to enchant the dagger I killed the Emporer with as revenge for his ransacking the sanctuary. Told a friend about that in high school and he was horrified...

Soul trapping is generally an inconvenient enough process that I dont bother with it a ton. If i need a soul gem for whatever reason, I'll buy one. Enchanting and smithing grinds are decidedly non-exciting to me, so if I dont ignore them entirely I usually have some mod or other that makes them non-factors.

[Lord Raziere]

Who here has actually used Black Souls?

In Oblivion I was a big fan of the "enchant multiple pieces of gear with a Chameleon enchantment to get free non-dispellable invisibility" exploit and tended to build for it pretty quickly. I'd grab the Chamelon greater power from the stone, then join the Mage's guild ASAP to get a Soul Trapping Staff then would immediately head to one dungeon that had an alter, use it to manufacture black gems, and then head into the dungeon to kill the necromancer mobs inside to fill the gems.

Because I couldn't be assed to figure out what mobs had grand souls and honestly I liked the irony.

In SKyrim the only time I used a Black Soul Gem as during the Dark brotherhood storyline when soul-trapped the head of Emporer's Guard and used him to enchant the dagger I killed the Emporer with as revenge for his ransacking the sanctuary. Told a friend about that in high school and he was horrified...

I have used black souls, even have repeatedly done the black azuras star ending of the quest. funny thing: bandits count for black souls so your getting souls for things you'd face and kill eventually anyways. as opposed to giants/mammoths which you need to specifically seek out. that and if your a daedric artifact gathering, vampire-becoming player like me, your probably going to committing a lot of crimes against nature and humanity anyways, so whats one more? though I tend to get grand soul gems and their souls to pick up as just apart of my looting and killing anyways so sometimes its just using whatever I get. its all enchantments to make me strong at the end of day, no need to turn down power whatever form it takes.

[Resileaf]

I don't use black souls myself. I don't really use white souls either. It just doesn't feel right to play with souls like that. >_>

[Kareeah_Indaga]

They are, but the fact that the quality is consistent whether its a beggar in the street, the bodyguard of a duchess or the archmage of the mage's guild indicates an inherent potency to black souls that white souls don't have.

That wasn’t true in Morrowind though, was it?

Who here has actually used Black Souls?

On purpose? Depends on the character. My current Dunmer conjuror, for example, has zero problems with using black souls, but my Khajiit only soul trapped Potema on purpose (IIRC she’s not a black soul, but it’s the thought that counts) and a bandit or two once or twice by accident because I forgot I had my bow of Soul Trap equipped.

[Divayth Fyr]

That wasn’t true in Morrowind though, was it?

No, because Morrowind didn't have the distinction. Or the option to soul trap npcs.

[Aeson]

No, because Morrowind didn't have the distinction. Or the option to soul trap npcs.

Morrowind did, however, allow you to soul trap a number of things which either presumably would have black souls or which later games explicitly classify as having black souls - Vivec, Almalexia, Dremora, Golden Saints, possibly some others - which if taken at face value raises some questions about how, exactly, souls get classified as 'white' or 'black' in-universe.

[halfeye]

Who here has actually used Black Souls?

I don't soul trap things, but I do use filled gems I either find or buy.

In Oblivion I was a big fan of the "enchant multiple pieces of gear with a Chameleon enchantment to get free non-dispellable invisibility" exploit and tended to build for it pretty quickly. I'd grab the Chamelon greater power from the stone, then join the Mage's guild ASAP to get a Soul Trapping Staff then would immediately head to one dungeon that had an alter, use it to manufacture black gems, and then head into the dungeon to kill the necromancer mobs inside to fill the gems.

In Oblivion I used sigil stones for enchanting things, pretty much exclusively (there was once or twice when I only needed something very weak), it was only in Skyrim that I took to heavily enchanting things at the enchanting stations.

[Fyraltari]

I don't use black souls myself. I don't really use white souls either. It just doesn't feel right to play with souls like that. >_>

Honestly, the whole enchanting system is the most horrific thing in The Elder Scrolls when you stop to ponder its implications.

[Spore]

Who here has actually used Black Souls?

Oh, I would never...but it is so easy. A beggar missing and suddenly I have a fantastic robe to battle evil? Now that is just the greater good really... Now if you excuse me you are cutting into my nightly cackling time.

You can blame the Mages’ Guild for the arbitrary distinction.

Because there needs to be a functional difference though. Black Soulstones are linked to the Soul Cairn, and as such should at least be considered worthy by the Ideal Masters to give you more power for them.

But my pet theory that I did not at all just come up here on the spot is that a creature needs a link to the Aedra for it to become a soul. They need to be in some kind of creation myth (so man, mer or beastfolk), they should not be outside of the god's attention (akin to giants, falmer etc.) because often times you can set gods equal to game developers in this weird setting.

If CHIM is more or less a state of meta knowledge allowing you to manipulate the world.
Then "being known by the gods" is more or less the fact that your soul is arbirtrary worth more because of the focus of the devs, I mean gods.

[Fyraltari]

But my pet theory that I did not at all just come up here on the spot is that a creature needs a link to the Aedra for it to become a soul. They need to be in some kind of creation myth (so man, mer or beastfolk), they should not be outside of the god's attention (akin to giants, falmer etc.) because often times you can set gods equal to game developers in this weird setting.

That doesn't work because lesser deadra have black souls (when they're said to have vestiges instead of souls) and they're as removed from the Aedra as one gets. Meanwhile the Minotaurs have white souls despite being descendants of Kyne's nephew.

[Imbalance]

I trap souls of every ilk and use the crap out of them. It's loot currency, especially since there is nothing consistent from game to game either in-world or in terms of mechanics as to whether the act is truly evil. For crying out loud, some of the most pious quest givers hand out enchanted items as rewards. In Morrowind I played a soul-collector, since each filled gem retained the name of the trapped creature.

Spoiler: If Almalexia hadn't beat me...

Show

...to Sotha Sil, all three of ALMSIVI would have graced my mantle. I put Dagoth Ur there instead.

Making black gems was tiresome in Oblivion, so I did less of it there, but Skyrim has a gem-filling shout that I spammed until I had everything I needed (including the corrupted Star) to max out my homemade dragon plate suit.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

That doesn't work because lesser deadra have black souls (when they're said to have vestiges instead of souls) and they're as removed from the Aedra as one gets. Meanwhile the Minotaurs have white souls despite being descendants of Kyne's nephew.

There have been instances of mortals becoming Daedra (Banished Cells 2, Dragonstar Arena, Rose Petal Bastion).

[Spore]

That doesn't work because lesser deadra have black souls (when they're said to have vestiges instead of souls) and they're as removed from the Aedra as one gets. Meanwhile the Minotaurs have white souls despite being descendants of Kyne's nephew.

Yea, my theory crashes and burns. But aren't daedra formed from the souls of daedra worshippers? Or are they just free with the daedric realm?

[Vinyadan]

I think the distinction is merely an engine one: NPCs have black souls, creatures have normal souls. Almalexia, Vivec and Dagoth Ur, as well as Dremora and Daedroth, all were creatures in Morrowind, so they had capturable souls. In Oblivion, Dremora instead were an NPC species, so they had black souls. In Skyrim, Dremora are NPCs, while the Falmer are creatures (with an exception in Dawnguard, which I haven't played). Vampires are NPCs in all three games, so they have black souls in Oblivion and Skyrim.

Lorewise, with things standing as they did in Morrowind, I liked the idea that Arkay had granted protection on the souls of the humanoids, and that Mannimarco in Oblivion had found a way to break that protection. What needs explanation is why Dremora and Golden Saints later also got protected souls: maybe Arkay was tired of necromancers using them for nefarious purposes, maybe it was their Princes, maybe it's the soultrap spell itself that was different in Morrowind.

By the way, this should also be a minor difference between Morrowind and Morroblivion (dremora in Morroblivion are NPCs).

[Fyraltari]

There have been instances of mortals becoming Daedra (Banished Cells 2, Dragonstar Arena, Rose Petal Bastion).

The who, the what and the when, now? Also, if we're talking mortals-turned-daedra, my go-to example would be the Second Sheogorath. In any case

Yea, my theory crashes and burns. But aren't daedra formed from the souls of daedra worshippers? Or are they just free with the daedric realm?

That's the first time I've heard of Deadra being made of mortal souls, do you have a source on that? Because I'm pretty sure the lesser daedra are simply minor et'Ada (like the Elhnofeys or the Magan-Ge) who didn't follow Lorkhan's plan but weren't powerful enough to create Daedric planes. Then again, most of the lore about Daedras is wild specualtion from Tamrielic mages and priests and is probably msotly inaccurate. It's implied that the term "Daedra" might cover several very different kind of beings, for example the Knights of Order are usually considered Daedras, but they have hearts of Order instead of Daedric Hearts.

[Grim Portent]

The who, the what and the when, now? Also, if we're talking mortals-turned-daedra, my go-to example would be the Second Sheogorath.

Umaril the Unfeathered might count as well. Pretty sure his pact with Meridia made him more daedra than mer.


As for what daedra are, I think them just being minor et'Ada is the most sensible answer. Though it is the elven answer, and while they know a lot about the metaphysics of their world I'm not sure they're intended to be completely correct. Souls that wind up in Oblivion seem to remain as the immortal souls of mortals rather than becoming daedra. The Nightshade ghosts who serve Nocturnal, the ghosts in the Shivering Isles, the tormented Mythic Dawn members living in Paradise.

It is implied in Oblivion and The Shivering Isles that the space outside the realms of the Daedric Princes isn't pleasant for daedra, they can't really live in the chaos of Oblivion itself, which imo would lend credence to the idea that they are native to Aetherius like the other et'Ada, but left it behind to follow the Daedric Princes into their own realms. The lesser daedra just lack the power to shape anything from the formless chaos and can be left adrift.

[DigoDragon]

Who here has actually used Black Souls?

This one has on occasion used a black soul for enchanting weapons, but assures you they were all terrible beings; bandit leaders, assassins, Dremora, and people who talk in the theater.

[veti]

Morrowind did, however, allow you to soul trap a number of things which either presumably would have black souls or which later games explicitly classify as having black souls - Vivec, Almalexia, Dremora, Golden Saints, possibly some others - which if taken at face value raises some questions about how, exactly, souls get classified as 'white' or 'black' in-universe.

Arkay's protection was meant for mortals, so it's not unreasonable that it may be withdrawn when mortals somehow change themselves into something else. That would cover the Tribunal, and may also account for Skyrim's Hagravens.

Daedra are harder to explain. There's no getting away from it, something changed after Morrowind. There are some interesting conjectures above about what that might have been.

As for vampires - I think the clue is that vampirism can be cured, even if the subject is centuries old (see Serana). That suggests vampires are actually mortals who are temporarily afflicted by a curse/disease, like lycanthropes, rather than permanently changed into something else.

I absolutely use the heck out of all kinds of soul gems. The easiest way to fill them is the conjuration perk that auto-applies soul trapping with conjured weapons, plus the trusty Bound Bow. I do try to ensure that only the deserving are trapped, but fortunately there's plenty of them around - Miraak cultists, Blackblood marauders, necromancers, and of course all the Thalmor you can eat.

[Fyraltari]

Arkay's protection was meant for mortals, so it's not unreasonable that it may be withdrawn when mortals somehow change themselves into something else. That would cover the Tribunal, and may also account for Skyrim's Hagravens.

What about the giants, goblin-ken (goblins and ogres), and minotaurs? Does Arkay not care about them? It can't be because they don't worship him since neither do the Dunmer and Orsimer.

Edit:

there is nothing consistent from game to game either in-world or in terms of mechanics as to whether the act is truly evil.

Do you really need the game to tell you whether using persons as batteries is bad?

[Grim Portent]

What about the giants, goblin-ken (goblins and ogres), and minotaurs? Does Arkay not care about them? It can't be because they don't worship him since neither do the Dunmer and Orsimer.

Presumably he doesn't. The Divines aren't exactly omnibenevolent, and neither are the races who worship them in various aspects. Arkay is an evil god in the old Nordic pantheon at the very least, and is plausibly evil to some extent in his truest self, the meric and imperial pantheons just don't acknowledge those aspects.

To some extent it can be assumed that the metaphysics changes from race to race and depends somewhat on which version of Arkay is in vogue among the mortals. The Nine Divines are the imperial interpretation of the Aedra, not accurate depictions of them in their totality, and it seems that the effects of this interpretation flow back into the Aedra in some fashion. Arkay, or the specific iteration of him who effects the world we play in, is the imperial version and cleaves to their social expectations which place giants, minotaurs, falmer and goblins as sub-human beasts.

[LibraryOgre]

Soul trapping is generally an inconvenient enough process that I dont bother with it a ton.

Skyrim makes it super-easy. Give your companion a soul-trapping weapon and a bunch of soul gems. Or use summoned weapons and max out that perk track.

[GloatingSwine]

As for what daedra are, I think them just being minor et'Ada is the most sensible answer. Though it is the elven answer, and while they know a lot about the metaphysics of their world I'm not sure they're intended to be completely correct.

I don't think *anyone* is intended to be completely correct regarding the metaphysics and cosmology, and the ones that are potentially in a position to be correct *and* inclined to talk about it are deeply unreliable (Sheogorath, Vivec maybe).

[Kareeah_Indaga]

The who, the what and the when, now?

ESO group content.