The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

[Lurkmoar]

Gonna be honest, even though I have no qualms using black soul gems, I never get the Black Star, even though it's easily superior to Azura's Star.

Azura knows how to hold a grudge.

Funnily enough, in Skyrim, I rarely enchant a weapon, simply because with maxed out Smithing and Alchemy (along with Enchanted Smithing gear and Potions to max Enchanting to make stronger Fortify Alchemy gear to make stronger Potions)... and I don't even Fortify Restoration to break the game into tiny pieces to hit harder then a dragon. And stopping to use soul gems to recharge a weapon kind of breaks my combat flow.

[Lord Raziere]

Gonna be honest, even though I have no qualms using black soul gems, I never get the Black Star, even though it's easily superior to Azura's Star.

Azura knows how to hold a grudge.

Eh, Skyrim is a game and its not as if we'll ever get a canonical confirmation of what the Dragonborn's fate is in the next game, so it might as well be consequence-free. they want me to fear Azura's Wrath, make her do something in game to me to earn it. otherwise my headcanon can and might as well be "and the Dragonborn beat up Azura when she tried to curse her for making the Black Star and the Dragonborn kept on using black souls for her enchanting, the end.". No I don't care what happens to NPC's, they are scripted and just more bark without actually biting me for my actions.

[Lurkmoar]

Eh, Skyrim is a game and its not as if we'll ever get a canonical confirmation of what the Dragonborn's fate is in the next game, so it might as well be consequence-free. they want me to fear Azura's Wrath, make her do something in game to me to earn it. otherwise my headcanon can and might as well be "and the Dragonborn beat up Azura when she tried to curse her for making the Black Star and the Dragonborn kept on using black souls for her enchanting, the end.". No I don't care what happens to NPC's, they are scripted and just more bark without actually biting me for my actions.

Hey now, there's no need to dis-spell the illusion of choice!

If only the follower you can get from that choice was better.

[Fyraltari]

"and the Dragonborn beat up Azura when she tried to curse her for making the Black Star

That's not really how Azura goes about getting revenge. Just look at what happened to Morrowind and the Tribunal.

[Rynjin]

Azura would get along well with Callowans.

"For small slights, long prices."

[veti]

Azura knows how to hold a grudge.

That, and I just kinda like Azura. She was very nice to me back in Morrowind. I want to be on her side.

Funnily enough, in Skyrim, I rarely enchant a weapon, simply because with maxed out Smithing and Alchemy (along with Enchanted Smithing gear and Potions to max Enchanting to make stronger Fortify Alchemy gear to make stronger Potions)... and I don't even Fortify Restoration to break the game into tiny pieces to hit harder then a dragon. And stopping to use soul gems to recharge a weapon kind of breaks my combat flow.

With how overpowered smithing is, enchanting weapons really feels pointless. Is it really worth going to all that hassle, tracking charges, refuelling the weapon etc., just to raise your damage by something like 20%? And then there's no way to turn it off when fighting the 80% of enemies who die so quickly that it makes no difference anyway, or the 30% who are resistant to this type of damage ...

I added a small mod purely to nerf smithing. It works, in that it's weaker than vanilla - but it's still so insanely OP that I can't resist maxing it out on practically every character.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Gonna be honest, even though I have no qualms using black soul gems, I never get the Black Star, even though it's easily superior to Azura's Star.

Azura knows how to hold a grudge.

My Dunmer went for it, because we’re talking about the Prince who specializes in prophecy - there’s at least a 50% chance Azura arranged for that outcome on purpose. We’re giving her artifact a powerup after all!

[Imbalance]

Do you really need the game to tell you whether using persons as batteries is bad?

It's a game with definable rules, so yeah. Persons are 1's and 0's. The game gives the option to use them as power ups, the games' lore presents those who oppose the practice as just as morally bankrupt as those who promote it, and is entirely rife with moral ambiguity by design. Every character I have played has engaged with every path to victory that the world and its moral guardians permit with zero concurrent consequences, apart from the kill-on-sight penalty for committing too many blatant murders within sight of the guards. I have slain so many Daedra that for all I know I could have sent Azura herself to the Soul Cairn. The adventures provide absolutely no reasons for me nor my character to have qualms about it, nor is there any reward for adherence to outside-of-game codes of conduct.

This sort of thing has become so morally ambiguous in games that even Mario now employs a body-stealing haunted hat to force others do his bidding.

Edit: Further, as pertains to TES, the very nature of the fortelling of the scrolls is that no matter what course of action I choose to take, it is the correct and fateful way to do it. After all, "without the hero, there is no Event."

Edit 2: I can wryly admit that the game-ending A-bomb glitch may be a direct consequence of how I had chosen to play Oblivion. Taking your time, enjoying the scenary, advancing to the head of every guild? Hurry up - the prophecy said you should be able to do all that in under 400 game hours.

[Fyraltari]

It's a game with definable rules, so yeah. Persons are 1's and 0's.

It's a roleplaying game, pretending they're not is part of the appeal.

The game gives the option to use them as power ups, the games' lore presents those who oppose the practice as just as morally bankrupt as those who promote it, and is entirely rife with moral ambiguity by design.

A) The games very clearly portrays the Order of the Black Worm, and most necromancers, as worse people than the other mages, or most groups really.

B) The setting being morally grey doesn't mean you shouldn't pass moral judgement. Quite the opposite. You are in control of your character's actions, you get to decide whether said character engages in certain behaviours or not.

Every character I have played has engaged with every path to victory that the world and its moral guardians permit with zero concurrent consequences, apart from the kill-on-sight penalty for committing too many blatant murders within sight of the guards. I have slain so many Daedra that for all I know I could have sent Azura herself to the Soul Cairn. The adventures provide absolutely no reasons for me nor my character to have qualms about it, nor is there any reward for adherence to outside-of-game codes of conduct.

So you are saying that if the game doesn't give you a reason to care, you won't. If that's intended as a criticism of the writing, I tend to agree. However, I don't think we should expect games to judge every choice we make. For one it often ends up being crude and lacking nuance, for two in the case of TES where power fantasy is part of the appeal it might unnecessarily get in the way of the fun.

[Imbalance]

It's a roleplaying game, pretending they're not is part of the appeal.

Agreed, but not having to pretend is also greatly appealing.

A) The games very clearly portrays the Order of the Black Worm, and most necromancers, as worse people than the other mages, or most groups really.

The Dunmer of Morrowind unanimously agreed, on the urging of fake gods, to turn their late relatives into a wall, and felt pretty righteous about it. Later they let all manner of souls be fed into a machine to keep a meteor from falling.

B) The setting being morally grey doesn't mean you shouldn't pass moral judgement. Quite the opposite. You are in control of your character's actions, you get to decide whether said character engages in certain behaviours or not.

Exactly, or even all the behaviors at once, then decide after the fact which sins to atone for, but only in post-adventure headcanon.

So you are saying that if the game doesn't give you a reason to care, you won't. If that's intended as a criticism of the writing, I tend to agree. However, I don't think we should expect games to judge every choice we make. For one it often ends up being crude and lacking nuance, for two in the case of TES where power fantasy is part of the appeal it might unnecessarily get in the way of the fun.

Nah, I care, but for me a large part of the enjoyment is checking out all of the features that the devs deigned to build into it. The writing only serves as the framework - the story is what the player will have done. The game could (and some have) provide tangible consequences for branching choices, thus quantifiable judgements can be hard-coded. The processing power does exist for the 1's and 0's to judge you, and there are enjoyable experiences to be found within the parameters of those games. TES has historically not really done that, because it wants to be grey in order to remove moral obstacles between the player and their fun unless the player chooses to impose them on themselves. Why else would Uriel Septim VII send out so many heroes without truly knowing their character, only that they've been prophesied to be the only individual who can save Tamriel?

[veti]

The Dunmer of Morrowind unanimously agreed, on the urging of fake gods, to turn their late relatives into a wall, and felt pretty righteous about it. Later they let all manner of souls be fed into a machine to keep a meteor from falling.

That's one of the instances where their decision did come back to bite them. And hard. Indeed, I see the whole story as a morality play, describing exactly how retribution strikes.

(Also, I don't think there's any evidence that the decision was "unanimous". Did they even ask everybody?)

Why else would Uriel Septim VII send out so many heroes without truly knowing their character, only that they've been prophesied to be the only individual who can save Tamriel?

What other choices did he have, exactly?

[Fyraltari]

Agreed, but not having to pretend is also greatly appealing.

That's not really possible.

The Dunmer of Morrowind unanimously agreed, on the urging of fake gods, to turn their late relatives into a wall, and felt pretty righteous about it.

Wait, did the dunmer as a whole do anything? I thought it was just the Tribunal who erected the Ghostfence.

Later they let all manner of souls be fed into a machine to keep a meteor from falling.

That's in the books, right? Again how much control did the dunmer people have over that? Morrowind isn't a democracy.

Exactly, or even all the behaviors at once, then decide after the fact which sins to atone for, but only in post-adventure headcanon.

What's this about atoning? If you want to play an evil bastard you can, if you don't want to you can as well. It sounds like you want the game to punish the player for misbehaving, but there aren't really anybway for the game to do that to a high-level character (yeah sure, try to throw my uber-mage/warrior in jail, let's see what happens) short of having NPCs refuse to speak to you, essentially soft-locking you out of the game.

Nah, I care, but for me a large part of the enjoyment is checking out all of the features that the devs deigned to build into it. The writing only serves as the framework - the story is what the player will have done. The game could (and some have) provide tangible consequences for branching choices, thus quantifiable judgements can be hard-coded. The processing power does exist for the 1's and 0's to judge you, and there are enjoyable experiences to be found within the parameters of those games.

And that's entirely valid. However...

TES has historically not really done that, because it wants to be grey in order to remove moral obstacles between the player and their fun unless the player chooses to impose them on themselves.

I really don't think that has to do with the setting being morally grey. Deus Ex, Dishonored and Fallout have morally grey worlds and they're all about consequences for your actions.

Hell, in TES most of the grey morality is in the lore or background quests. The main quests and faction quests tend to present clear good/evil conflicts.

Ultimately they're sandbox power fantasies, that's why the game doesn't set out to punish you for any behaviour. And that's a fine thing to be.

Could TES VI have more consequences for the player's actions? Sure, but it doesn't have to. And if it does go that way, I wish it'd go the full route and have NPCs approve of things other disapprove and so on rather than one of those stupid karma meters.

Why else would Uriel Septim VII send out so many heroes without truly knowing their character, only that they've been prophesied to be the only individual who can save Tamriel?

He did that only once.

Arena: Ria Silmane picked the Eternal Champion, because they were there and because they had already opposed Jagar Tharn's tyranny. A reasonnable choice Uriel had no say in

Daggerfall: Uriel sent the Imperial Agent, an old friend of his, to retrieve a letter and investigate a ghost. That's it.

Morrowind: Okay, he just had a random prisoner pardonned and sent to Vvardenfel based on a prophecy.

Oblivion: He met the Hero of Kvatch in the last half-hour of his life, he wasn't going to do a background check. Also, it's the literal end of the world.

[Grim Portent]

Morrowind: Okay, he just had a random prisoner pardonned and sent to Vvardenfel based on a prophecy.

Given the fatality rate on failed Nerevarines I'd say being exiled to Morrowwind under the nominal purpose of being the latest attempt to fulfill the prophecy doubles as a delayed execution. The most reasonable expectation is that any given person sent is going to die, so their criminal history is irrelevant.

Which depending on what the Nerevarine actually did might be more unethical than pardoning a serial killer to try and fulfill the prophecy, if they were a pickpocket or something then being sent to die at the hands of Dagoth Ur's servants is kind of unfair.

[Fyraltari]

Given the fatality rate on failed Nerevarines I'd say being exiled to Morrowwind under the nominal purpose of being the latest attempt to fulfill the prophecy doubles as a delayed execution. The most reasonable expectation is that any given person sent is going to die, so their criminal history is irrelevant.

Which depending on what the Nerevarine actually did might be more unethical than pardoning a serial killer to try and fulfill the prophecy, if they were a pickpocket or something then being sent to die at the hands of Dagoth Ur's servants is kind of unfair.

I'm not sure Uriel knew about the failed Nerevarines or that they weren't just crooks or delusionnal, there's been what, a dozen in four thousand years?

Also, I don't think he knew about Dagoth Ur at all. I think the part of the prophecy he was most interested in was the fall of the Tribunal.

[Grim Portent]

Given that he himself had prophetic visions for his much of his life I think he'd invest the time to learn about the prophecy, especially after the Imperial Simulacrum. Old man Uriel was not one to take half measures, despite being something of an *******, and he had a lot of strong ties in Morrowind that could tell him the basic issues with Dagoth Ur running around even if they skipped a few details.

Now whether he'd care more about Dagoth Ur than about taking the Tribunal down is another matter, and I think his priority was the fall of the Tribunal. But the defeat of Dagoth Ur, or whatever his agents and allies in the province told him was behind Corprus and the need for the Ghost Fence, would likely have been a bonus given his desire to increase the spread of Imperial culture and colonies into the province, something a zombie plague and a fallen god would impede.

[Vinyadan]

I think Uriel put a lot of trust in the Nerevarine. He exposed his spy network to him, and he sent him a gift worth 12,000 drakes. I don't believe he simply saw this as a belated execution.

In a way, Uriel mirrors Nerevar, another great man from the ancient past whose life conditions yours but which you'll never meet. And you and Azura are the channel between these two.

But in Morrowind it is also clear that Uriel has a lot of problems on his hands. He's old, sick, and the people wants to destroy his heirs as fakes. Far away Cyrodiil and Morrowind both are involved in an "end of an era" narrative, where the gods are already losing their power, the Heart will be destroyed, and there seems to be no suitable emperor after this one.

Going beyond Morrowind, if Uriel shared the same perceptions as the people in the End of Time cult, who expected the Oblivion crisis as a ripple from the decadence of the Tribunal gods, then he likely knew that allowing the Nerevarine prophecy to be realised was going to be a point of no return. On the other hand, the Tribunal had not managed to recover access to Red Mountain in centuries, and they were certainly going to lose, sooner or later. But an Oblivion crisis, if it really was bound to follow the fulfillment the Nerevarine prophecy, needed Uriel dead or demoted, and his heirs off the throne. So it was a deeply personal decision, which ended up touching everything he cared for: his life, his Empire, his sons, his dynasty.

He certainly got a nice portrait in Oblivion. The worries and the foresight are there, but in Morrowind he was "harsh, unyielding" and unpopular, which I didn't really see in Oblivion. If anything, he was remarkably agreeable with a random prisoner (an effect of foresight, or just a Roy Batty moment when death was near).

EDIT: If I had to say why Uriel went with it, I'd say the Akulakhan. Dagoth wanted to use it to rule all of Tamriel while spreading corprus and blight.

[Keltest]

That's not really possible.

Sure it is. How many otherwise noble players have modded the game specifically to allow them to send Nazeem hurtling into some flavor of horrific draconic doom?

[Lord Raziere]

I dunno what you guys do, but I just suck Nazeem's blood to kill him and get vampire powers out of it. quick, and beneficial to me beyond the annoyance-swatting factor by improving my sneak as well, no need for elaborate displays of revenge. getting extra with nazeem's death is something that is more of a streamer thing to me, if your gonna show off have an audience after all.

[DigoDragon]

Apparently when my Steam client last updated, it reset some settings, allowing Skyrim to try and update. I stopped that, but for a moment in the game my keyboard wouldn't respond to inputs except for console commands. Toggling ShowRaceMenu on and then just clicking done got my keyboard running again.

Just mentioning it in case someone else experiences that.

I dunno what you guys do, but I just suck Nazeem's blood to kill him and get vampire powers out of it.

I'm on a no junk food diet. XD

[Kareeah_Indaga]

He certainly got a nice portrait in Oblivion. The worries and the foresight are there, but in Morrowind he was "harsh, unyielding" and unpopular, which I didn't really see in Oblivion.

I only went through Morrowind once and it was a while ago, so I will ask: was he unpopular in general, or in Morrowind specifically? Because I can absolutely see the outlander-hating, generally prideful Dunmer people being resentful of being ruled by an outlander and having to toe the Imperial lines, no matter how good a ruler he actually was.

[Vinyadan]

I only went through Morrowind once and it was a while ago, so I will ask: was he unpopular in general, or in Morrowind specifically? Because I can absolutely see the outlander-hating, generally prideful Dunmer people being resentful of being ruled by an outlander and having to toe the Imperial lines, no matter how good a ruler he actually was.

I think it was a problem in general. I don't remember which race, faction, or location had the "Uriel Septim" topic (which reported on him this way: "a strong and effective ruler, but harsh and unyielding in personality, and private and secretive by nature, he has never been popular with the people"), but there were Imperial legionaries in Gnisis plotting his murder, although they might have been outliers.

Storywise, you can see that he is secretive with the handling of your own story: it's not like the Nerevarine or his handlers get any more info than they strictly need...

[veti]

Apparently when my Steam client last updated, it reset some settings, allowing Skyrim to try and update.

I would advise updating it now. The early issues with AE have been resolved, all the mods I take notice of have been updated, you can safely remove the unwanted CC content, and what's left is a small but noticeable improvement in performance.

And aesthetics. Trees, for instance, look much better now - don't need a mod for that any more.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I think it was a problem in general. I don't remember which race, faction, or location had the "Uriel Septim" topic (which reported on him this way: "a strong and effective ruler, but harsh and unyielding in personality, and private and secretive by nature, he has never been popular with the people"), but there were Imperial legionaries in Gnisis plotting his murder, although they might have been outliers.

Storywise, you can see that he is secretive with the handling of your own story: it's not like the Nerevarine or his handlers get any more info than they strictly need...

Some of that might be due to Jagar Tharn, though by Morrowind it’s been almost thirty years since he was ousted.

[GloatingSwine]

Daggerfall: Uriel sent the Imperial Agent, an old friend of his, to retrieve a letter and investigate a ghost. That's it.

He sent the Imperial Agent to recover the control rod and power source for the Numidium in order to restore his reign after the Imperial Simulacrum. He just doesn't tell them that at the start of the story.

Though anything that happens *before* the Warp in the West can't really be applied to things after it, because some or all of its effects were retroactive (the apotheosis of both Mannimarco and Tiber Septim/Talos, the consolidation of powers in the Iliac Bay, the status of Orsinium and the Orcs, etc).

[Eldan]

Wait, did the dunmer as a whole do anything? I thought it was just the Tribunal who erected the Ghostfence.

It's quite burried in the background, but it's mentioned that ghost fences, plural, aren't really a new thing. Dunmer used to have them around their estates, or ancestral graves. The ancestors of poor families would sacrifice themselves to keep their families safer from the various ashland dangers, and nobles would have giant fences powered by their retainers.

If I remember correctly, the Tribunal kind of, well, confiscated all the dead on Vvardenfell to powre the big ghost fence.

[Spore]

My Dunmer went for it, because we’re talking about the Prince who specializes in prophecy - there’s at least a 50% chance Azura arranged for that outcome on purpose. We’re giving her artifact a powerup after all!

Prophecy maybe, but in the principal divide between aedra and daedra, I feel Azura manipulates fate rather than predict it. The aedra are set in stone, their presence is immutable and firm. The daedra personify change and alteration, in a sense they give mortals (and as such the player) free will, and Azura as one of the fewer benevolent daedra feels like somewhat in the middle. She knows the strands of fate that pull a story and time into a direction but she has just enough power to manipulate you into an outcome.

But I feel much of her power is just bravado, she cannot fully control you nor fate itself. But this is just me with my worldbuilding theories based on nothing else but my want for symmetry in cosmic forces and my basic understanding of Morrowind lore.

Plus, I feel any theory is viable when it comes to the Elder Scrolls because much of the stuff was made up by a writer that is now gone. And it is the one writer I consider the "father" of the franchise.

[Fyraltari]

He sent the Imperial Agent to recover the control rod and power source for the Numidium in order to restore his reign after the Imperial Simulacrum. He just doesn't tell them that at the start of the story.

Though anything that happens *before* the Warp in the West can't really be applied to things after it, because some or all of its effects were retroactive (the apotheosis of both Mannimarco and Tiber Septim/Talos, the consolidation of powers in the Iliac Bay, the status of Orsinium and the Orcs, etc).

Having not played Daggerfall, I don't know whether Uriel intended to set you on the trail of the Totem of tiber septim or if it just kind of happened, but the point remains that the Imperial Agent isn't a random nobody Uriel tasked with this. They're an old friend.

It's quite burried in the background, but it's mentioned that ghost fences, plural, aren't really a new thing. Dunmer used to have them around their estates, or ancestral graves. The ancestors of poor families would sacrifice themselves to keep their families safer from the various ashland dangers, and nobles would have giant fences powered by their retainers.

If I remember correctly, the Tribunal kind of, well, confiscated all the dead on Vvardenfell to powre the big ghost fence.

Okay, I will concede that Dunmer society sucks in many way, but I will maintain that the Worm Cult is worse.

The daedra personify change and alteration, in a sense they give mortals (and as such the player) free will

*Unmovingly stares in Jyggalag*

Also Akatosh is the embodiment of the passing of time, without which alteration is impossible. Plus Lorkhan totally counts as an Aedra in my book.

But I feel much of her power is just bravado, she cannot fully control you nor fate itself. But this is just me with my worldbuilding theories based on nothing else but my want for symmetry in cosmic forces and my basic understanding of Morrowind lore.

Obviously all the gods (and their worshippers) in TES oversell their influence and power. Azura can't just will you to die, she has to put some effort into it. But still, make her into an enemy of yours is a risky move.

Plus, I feel any theory is viable when it comes to the Elder Scrolls because much of the stuff was made up by a writer that is now gone. And it is the one writer I consider the "father" of the franchise.

If you mean Kirkbride he was still involved up to Skyrim, and I suspect he will be too for Elder Scrolls VI, whenever they start actually working on it.

[InvisibleBison]

Also Akatosh is the embodiment of the passing of time, without which alteration is impossible.

I don't think this is correct. Akatosh is the embodiment of linear time specifically, and so limits the kinds of changes that can occur. It's not a coincidence that Dragon Breaks, when Akatosh's influence over reality is suspended, tend to be periods of drastic change.

[Keltest]

Obviously all the gods (and their worshippers) in TES oversell their influence and power. Azura can't just will you to die, she has to put some effort into it. But still, make her into an enemy of yours is a risky move.

I mean, is it? The Tribunal got to live as literal gods for however many hundreds of years. If the Nerevarine was Azura's revenge, she kind of dropped the ball there.

[Fyraltari]

I don't think this is correct. Akatosh is the embodiment of linear time specifically, and so limits the kinds of changes that can occur. It's not a coincidence that Dragon Breaks, when Akatosh's influence over reality is suspended, tend to be periods of drastic change.

Nothing that happens during the Dragon Breaks lasts, like Cyrodiil turning into an egg during the Middle-Dawn. It is only when linear time is reestablished that these have actual effects. That's why, according to those who have a positive view of Lorkhan, creation had to happen for souls to be able to better themselves. If everything happens at once, nothing can change. That's the great irony of chaos: complete chaos ends up being uniform and static.

I mean, is it? The Tribunal got to live as literal gods for however many hundreds of years. If the Nerevarine was Azura's revenge, she kind of dropped the ball there.

The Tribunal were gods, precisely, they were much harder to harm than regular mortals or Heroes.