The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

[Alcore]

TES 6 question:

Would you like to see Attributes back, keep it like the Perk system in Skyrim or Hybridize it?

I don't miss Speed from Oblivion for instance when I played a heavy Orc warrior...

If I were to make 6 I would…


Use the skills, leveling and class mechanics of TES 3

The magic system of TES 4. Also make the spells get steadily stronger with usage/level.

The sheer size of TES 2

The combat of TES 5

And probably the graphics of TES 3 or 4
(The sheer size of the game world would make skyrim level graphics as clumbersome).


Don’t reinvent the wheel. Use the best of the best from each version. Also; have scaling enemy level with an on/off button. In Skyrim, for instance, you must train smithing to be stronger than a guard and bandit or wait for high levels. Need enchanting or alchemy to be stronger than most monsters. Need all three to be heroic.

They never let you be awesome. Your only “just good enough”. Much like some GMs flooding village militias with level 16s because the party is 20.

[halfeye]

If I were to make 6 I would…


Use the skills, leveling and class mechanics of TES 3

The magic system of TES 4. Also make the spells get steadily stronger with usage/level.

The sheer size of TES 2

The combat of TES 5

Erm, maybe.

And probably the graphics of TES 3 or 4
(The sheer size of the game world would make skyrim level graphics as clumbersome).

Nope, nope, no. The graphics of 3 were horrible, good for their time, but compared to something modern like Fallout 4, completely rubbish. The grass in 4 was an attrocity, it could either pop in at close range, or at medium range and no further. The fact that you were always loosing loot in the grass or less retrievably in walls in 4 was why the loot in skyrim was pickable from the corpses even if they dropped it.

Machines and algorithms have improved since Skyrim, what was hard then would be easier now. If crypto-currencies crash hard enough decent graphics cards might become affordable too.

Don’t reinvent the wheel. Use the best of the best from each version. Also; have scaling enemy level with an on/off button. In Skyrim, for instance, you must train smithing to be stronger than a guard and bandit or wait for high levels. Need enchanting or alchemy to be stronger than most monsters. Need all three to be heroic.

They never let you be awesome. Your only “just good enough”. Much like some GMs flooding village militias with level 16s because the party is 20.

You didn't mention water, and so far there hasn't been a game where the water wasn't rubbish, they need to make new good water.

[Vinyadan]

To put things in perspective, Morrowind is 20. Today, you can create realistic surfaces and simulate bumps by leveraging a modern engine (with normal and parallax maps), while Morrowind had to use more detailed objects and character models. It also wasn't particularly well optimised, as it didn't use atlassing. Most noticeably, at least for me, it had no occlusion culling: if you are facing a house in Balmora, and the whole city is behind it, then the game will render everything behind the house. Morrowind also used way too many particle effects, to the point that there were perceivable slow downs when using a shrine and even casting certain spells, not to say anything about the propylon chambers...
I also don't think that Morrowind lighting would be acceptable today. It was really blocky, plus assets didn't block light, which meant bight bleed and problematic shadows. Plus, stuff like grass and distant land is pretty cool for open world games. I am actually very surprised at how light water reflections and animated grass are in a modded Morrowind (in Oblivion, unless I screwed something up, they are really heavy with distant land enabled).
And then there is the question of what resolution to aim for, and how that affects visuals (also, with upscalers like dlss and fidelityfx becoming normal for gpu companies, resolution probably won't be a big problem for future players).

[veti]

There is no earthly reason why TES6 shouldn't have graphics that are at least as good as those of Skyrim or FO4. The computational saving of simplifying them would be minimal.

"The size of Daggerfall" - yeah, not going to happen, and arguably shouldn't anyway. We've seen "open world games" range up to hundreds of square miles, and by now there's a pretty clear consensus about this - being bigger doesn't make it better. There's a sweet spot, probably somewhere around 30-50 square miles (i.e. somewhere between Breath of the Wild and GTAV), where it's as big as one player can reasonably handle.

"The magic system of Oblivion" - really? While I appreciate the simplicity of casting, what I chiefly remember is the frustration at how limited and weak the effects were in comparison to Morrowind. Even the biggest, most magicka-hungry attack spells were - well, not significantly more effective than the weapons, which seemed to be mostly made of polystyrene.

Where I would most like to see some development effort spent would be on the AI. Yes, Ms Bandit, the noise might have been your imagination, but the arrow sticking out of your friend's ear certainly isn't, so perhaps you shouldn't be going back to exactly the same patrol route you followed before.

[Eldan]

Okay, I will concede that Dunmer society sucks in many way, but I will maintain that the Worm Cult is worse.

I'm not actually sure that's sucking. There's a few books on the Dunmer view on the entire thing. They see it as the older generations protecting their families, and the families in turn worship their ancestors with elaborate shrines and tombs.

[Keltest]

"The magic system of Oblivion" - really? While I appreciate the simplicity of casting, what I chiefly remember is the frustration at how limited and weak the effects were in comparison to Morrowind. Even the biggest, most magicka-hungry attack spells were - well, not significantly more effective than the weapons, which seemed to be mostly made of polystyrene.

I think they meant more having a dedicated spell slot that you could cast independently of any physical weapons you may or may not have drawn. Being a spellsword in Oblivion means giving up all the big two handed spells, fiddling with the menus to equip and unequip your stuff, and not being able to dual cast or dual wield spells.

In particular, this makes staves questionably useful for actual casters, since your own spells will almost always be better.

[Aeson]

Nope, nope, no. The graphics of 3 were horrible, good for their time, but compared to something modern like Fallout 4, completely rubbish.

Personally, I like the way Morrowind looks better than I like the more 'realistic' look of quite a few more modern games.

Being a spellsword in Oblivion means giving up all the big two handed spells, fiddling with the menus to equip and unequip your stuff, and not being able to dual cast or dual wield spells.

Skyrim, you mean.

The magic system of TES 4. Also make the spells get steadily stronger with usage/level.

The only things stopping Morrowind's magic system from being outright superior to Oblivion's are the lackluster access to Restore Magicka effects at low level in Morrowind, because Bargain/Cheap potions were nearly worthless for a full caster even at level 1 and better potions or the ingredients to make your own could be difficult to obtain depending on how wealthy your characters were and whether or not you knew where to find the restocking vendors, and inadequate base magicka for anyone who didn't take at least one magicka bonus from their race and birthsign.

(I realize that casting failure chance is not especially popular, but, personally, I like that the game allowed you to take a chance on casting more potent spells than you could reliably pull off; it does a pretty good job of making fatigue actually relevant to a caster, which neither of the later games' systems do; and unless maybe you were an exceptionally bad caster a visit to a spellmaker could pretty much always give you a spell that you were guaranteed to be able to cast if you didn't want to risk something fizzling at a bad time.)

[GloatingSwine]

I mean, is it? The Tribunal got to live as literal gods for however many hundreds of years. If the Nerevarine was Azura's revenge, she kind of dropped the ball there.

Their entire species got changed into a different one...

Azura's revenge was changing the Chimer into the Dunmer, with the loss of a great deal of their magic and power.

The status of the Tribunal after this largely reflects their ability to accept and understand the truth of the world. Almalexia is unchanged because she lives so deep in the stories of her godhood that she cannot distinguish truth. Vivec lives on the line between truth and story, he lies incessantly but he knows that his lies are lies. Sotha Sil accepted the truth of the change as part of his understanding of the mechanics of the world.

Not the only time she's done that either, allegedly. The Khajiit used to be mer somewhat similar to the Bosmer.

Personally, I like the way Morrowind looks better than I like the more 'realistic' look of quite a few more modern games.

Morrowind has better *art direction* than Oblivion or Skyrim, but not better *graphics*. There's a lot you can do with mods to drag it out of the dark ages though.

[Fyraltari]

I'm not actually sure that's sucking. There's a few books on the Dunmer view on the entire thing. They see it as the older generations protecting their families, and the families in turn worship their ancestors with elaborate shrines and tombs.

Imean that part definitely sucks:

nobles would have giant fences powered by their retainers.

But also, Dunmeri culture is very xenophobic, theocratic (and the gods they worship...), fueled by slavery and permeated by social darwinist ideas. It sucks in many ways.

Their entire species got changed into a different one...

Azura's revenge was changing the Chimer into the Dunmer, with the loss of a great deal of their magic and power.

The status of the Tribunal after this largely reflects their ability to accept and understand the truth of the world. Almalexia is unchanged because she lives so deep in the stories of her godhood that she cannot distinguish truth. Vivec lives on the line between truth and story, he lies incessantly but he knows that his lies are lies. Sotha Sil accepted the truth of the change as part of his understanding of the mechanics of the world.

Or Almalexia is the past, Vivec the present and Sil the future of the Dunmeri. Or Almalexia is in denial about murdering Nerevar (and therefore rejects the punishment), Vivec admits to it but justifies it (half-accepting the punishment) and Sil is regretful over it (taking the full punishment). Or...

Also, are you sure the Dunmer are less powerful than the Chimer and if so if that's the result of the curse or of "growing soft" thanks to having living gods in their corner?

Not the only time she's done that either, allegedly. The Khajiit used to be mer somewhat similar to the Bosmer.

According to Khajiiti myths, they were formless until Azurah gave some of them shapes, and Y'ffer then turned the rest into the Bosmer. Azurah's actions aren't supposed to be a punishment though.

[Caelestion]

You didn't mention water, and so far there hasn't been a game where the water wasn't rubbish, they need to make new good water.

The water in Morrowind was amazing for its time. It's still pretty good now.

[Spore]

Morrowind has better *art direction* than Oblivion or Skyrim, but not better *graphics*. There's a lot you can do with mods to drag it out of the dark ages though.

In this case, how would you guys feel if TES 6 had an very atypical artstyle? I am not talking as far as cellshaded or artsy black-and-white, and frankly I know too little of artstyles as a whole to recommend a fitting one, so I will just put up a cartoony World of Warcraft style for debate.

What if TES 6 had cartoon graphics? Would you rebel?

[Rynjin]

A bit. Cartoony looking fantasy games like Fable have always looked cheap to me.

The game doesn't need to be photorealistic, but cartoony is too far.

[Rater202]

Honestly, all I want to know regarding TES6 is "where is it and what are they replacing shouts with"

[Rynjin]

High Rock is pretty much locked in. Though "Tamriel" is a potential option if they decide to go big or go home.

I would imagine (and hope) they dont replace Shouts with anything. It was a one-off mechanic in one game, and not a particularly interesting one.

[Rater202]

High Rock is pretty much locked in. Though "Tamriel" is a potential option if they decide to go big or go home.

I would imagine (and hope) they don't replace Shouts with anything. It was a one-off mechanic in one game, and not a particularly interesting one.

You can't go from "you're a demigod with a more or ess unique power" to "you're an ordinary dude whose only special because destiny said so" in terms of game release. By making The Lasr Dragonborn someone of such significance with a power that few can use and none as well as you they've raised the bar significantly.

At bare minimum, the game has to have a category of powers/spells that the players gets but most NPCs don't.

If it was set in Hammerfel then it could be those reality-bending sword techniques in the Redguard legends. Hammerfall also is known to have had both Dwener and Aeleid settlements and a population of Nedes prior to a genocide o there'd potentially be plenty of variety of dungeons to explore.

But if they're setting it in High Rock I don't know what that entails other than potentially a return to Daggerfell.

[GloatingSwine]

High Rock is pretty much locked in.

In the mind of the Internet, at least.

The one trailer we've seen didn't look much like High Rock geography, it was scrubland and sandy rock more like southern Hammerfell or northern Elsweyr.

(I don't think Elder Scrolls should adopt a WoW style exaggerated art style, because I don't think it lies within Bethesda's strengths to create one, and it has consistently stuck to some kind of grounded despite variation within that.)

[Rynjin]

Shehai is interesting in a sense but really is little different from Summon Sword in the grand scheme.

And the teaser could be Hammerfell, yeah. I'm inclined to believe it's both since High Rock is pretty small.

[Fyraltari]

You can't go from "you're a demigod with a more or ess unique power" to "you're an ordinary dude whose only special because destiny said so" in terms of game release.

Yeah, you can.

Sure shouts were fun, but in practice they weren't that useful, magic archery and swordplay remained the name of the game.


Edit: How many ESO players complained that you no longer had a unique power no NPC could use?

[Eldan]

In this case, how would you guys feel if TES 6 had an very atypical artstyle? I am not talking as far as cellshaded or artsy black-and-white, and frankly I know too little of artstyles as a whole to recommend a fitting one, so I will just put up a cartoony World of Warcraft style for debate.

What if TES 6 had cartoon graphics? Would you rebel?

IT would be a difficult balance. Like, if I saw a trailer for, I don't know, an Impressionist RPG that is made to look like a watercolour painting? Oh man would I be all over that.

On the other hand, it's not just a new game, it's an Elder Scrolls game, and I'd still want it to be noticeably in the same tradition as previous Elder Scrolls games.

[Eldan]

In the mind of the Internet, at least.

The one trailer we've seen didn't look much like High Rock geography, it was scrubland and sandy rock more like southern Hammerfell or northern Elsweyr.

(I don't think Elder Scrolls should adopt a WoW style exaggerated art style, because I don't think it lies within Bethesda's strengths to create one, and it has consistently stuck to some kind of grounded despite variation within that.)

At least one analysis I've seen actually pretty much did lock that trailer in as being the Illiac bay coast in geography, including some unusual landmarks, like a certain crater and a peculiarly shaped bay.


As for power uniqueness.... even shouting wasn't that unique. Grey beards, Dragon Priests and Draugr had it, at least, as did some dragons. Rare, but not unique. (Still think there should have been more voice users. And more magic in general, the Nords were at times quite magical people.)

Plus, four games with no unique powers and one with, I don't think it's necessary. It's always been about the unique destiny, not the unique power.

[Rater202]

Yeah, you can.

Sure shouts were fun, but in practice they weren't that useful, magic archery and swordplay remained the name of the game.


Edit: How many ESO players complained that you no longer had a unique power no NPC could use?

ESO is an MMO. By definition you're not special, you're just oe of many people playig out the exact same story in the exact same time.

TEs6 will theoretically be a single-player game and, following the trend, will be about the PC being some random nobody o turns out to be of cosmic importance.

On Uniqueness: Only a relatively small number of people can shout, and nobody else can do it as well as you... Except for Mirak but I think killing him and absorbing his soul means that you're the better Dragonborn.

And shouts not being all that is 1: Subjective and 2: Something that could be fixed with better integration.

[veti]

How often do you actually use Shouts, typically? I don't think any of my characters have used them what you could call "routinely". Maybe once per level or less. Sometimes much less.

My current favourite is Ice Form. When I discovered that worked on multiple targets - well, I haven't looked back. But even so, it's never been an every-fight thing - I've always thought of it as pretty much the weapon of last resort, only for when I'm in serious trouble.

Frankly I would prefer a hero who was a bit less Marked By The Gods and a bit more Brave Little Tailor. I loved the portion of Morrowind where I was, theoretically, an outlaw, and was quite disappointed that the Ordinators in Vivec didn't attack me even if I went up and spoke to them.

[Rater202]

How often do you actually use Shouts, typically? I don't think any of my characters have used them what you could call "routinely". Maybe once per level or less. Sometimes much less.

I used them all the time, so maybe tha'ts where I'm coming from.

[GloatingSwine]

Edit: How many ESO players complained that you no longer had a unique power no NPC could use?

Point of order: In ESO you *do* have a unique power no NPC can use. The Vestige's soul is claimed by Molag Bal and they can't die (and there are some quests where the fact that you are walking around without your soul is the reason that you are uniquely able to proceed, or are unaffected by whatever soul-destroying shenanigans are supposed to be occurring*).

The resurrection mechanic for players is, in fact, canonically happening.

*Sometimes they remember you get your soul back at the end of the main quest. Harrowstorms don't affect you (except by summoning lots of things to punch you very hard) but dragons can hit you with Soul Tear.


(Shouts other than Dragonrend weren't all that useful, effects were too limited and cools were too long, but then also in vanilla Skyrim magic is pretty weedy as well.)

[Vinyadan]

You can't go from "you're a demigod with a more or ess unique power" to "you're an ordinary dude whose only special because destiny said so" in terms of game release. By making The Lasr Dragonborn someone of such significance with a power that few can use and none as well as you they've raised the bar significantly.

To tell the truth, I didn't like that. Just being a stranger in a strange land slowly raising your status through deeds sounds more interesting than being the protagonist because you have X mechanical power. The Nerevarine had to fight hard to be recognised as such, and wasn't even necessarily certain of being the embodiment of Nerevar in the end; but his deeds were undeniable and his title of Hortator also denoted the recognition of moral qualities. The Champion of Cyrodiil became a hero because he entered a burning city and fought off the daedra. The Dragonborn just is the Dragonborn, nothing to do about it. A good example: the guards will go "woah!" when you absorb your first dragon soul, but they have likely killed it themselves as they are at least lvl 20. That is their moment of glory (the first dragon killed by men, since when?), but the story requires that everyone is in awe about your soulsucking and wordshouting abilities instead.

[Fyraltari]

ESO is an MMO. By definition you're not special, you're just oe of many people playig out the exact same story in the exact same time.

Really? Because I thought you were the special person who escaped Coldharbour and ended up using Akatosh's power to pummel Molag Bal into paste. Just because it's an MMO doesn't mean you're not being unique.

In terms of gameplay, can you do in ESO something the NPCs can't do? And if not, why would it be more of a problem in a single-player game?

TEs6 will theoretically be a single-player game and, following the trend, will be about the PC being some random nobody o turns out to be of cosmic importance.

So was Skyrim.

On Uniqueness: Only a relatively small number of people can shout, and nobody else can do it as well as you... Except for Mirak but I think killing him and absorbing his soul means that you're the better Dragonborn.

Yeah. So?

And shouts not being all that is 1: Subjective and 2: Something that could be fixed with better integration.

"Fixed" implies it's a problem. It's not. Being a dragonborn is just one way one can be powerful on Tamriel, not the ultimate trump card. Wulfarth Ash-King and Tiber Septim habe lost fights against non-dragonborns, so did Miraak who was created specifically for Skyrim.

The Thu'um is ultimately just a form of magic (probably related to tonal architecture) and many of its abilities are redundant with spells. Mastering the Thu'um isn't the reason The Last Dragonborn is important, it's because when they kill dragons they have the common decency to stay dead.

There's no reason for TES VI to replace V's gimmick with something else.

[Keltest]

As far as WoW's graphics, they are the way they are mostly to keep engine requirements down so your grandma with a 15 year old computer can still play the game if she feels like it. A hypothetical ES 6 is unlikely to cleave to that goal.

[Fyraltari]

About the graphics, I wouldn't want them to change artstyle, so no "cartoony" designs. But I don't, and have never, care for photorealistic graphics in gaming. That does nothing but gulp down memory and processing power for almost no gain. I'd be happy if they stayed at the level of vanilla Skyrim. But of course, they'll make it so we can count all the hair on the arms of every bandit, so I don't expect to be able to play the game on release the 5/5/55.

Point of order: In ESO you *do* have a unique power no NPC can use. The Vestige's soul is claimed by Molag Bal and they can't die (and there are some quests where the fact that you are walking around without your soul is the reason that you are uniquely able to proceed, or are unaffected by whatever soul-destroying shenanigans are supposed to be occurring*).

Okay, but that's not a power you can use it's a passive. It doesn't change the way you play the game.

But now, I'm curious, do ennemies acknowledge it when they've killed you before? And how do they justify Vilain McBadguy restarting his entire ritual when you fail to interrupt it?

Edit:

A good example: the guards will go "woah!" when you absorb your first dragon soul

Well, all the flashy lights went into you. That's woah-worthy.

but they have likely killed it themselves as they are at least lvl 20.

Did they? Maybe, I'm more aggressive than the usual player, but I generally land the killing blow on that fight. Speaking of, does it bother anyone else that for every dragon fight mandated by the main quest, you've got someone backing you? These guards, Delphine, Paarthurnax, the ancient Heroes. I think Miraak is the only dragon-related villain you beat up yourself (and even then Herma-Mora finishes him off for you).

That is their moment of glory (the first dragon killed by men, since when?)

I think since the late Second Era, when Cyrus the Restless killed Naafalilargus/Nafahlar.

[Keltest]

About the graphics, I wouldn't want them to change artstyle, so no "cartoony" designs. But I don't, and have never, care for photorealistic graphics in gaming. That does nothing but gulp down memory and processing power for almost no gain. I'd be happy if they stayed at the level of vanilla Skyrim. But of course, they'll make it so we can count all the hair on the arms of every bandit, so I don't expect to be able to play the game on release the 5/5/55.

Agreed. I think Skyrim vanilla is already kind of an ugly game with all the dirt and everything visible on everything. I'd just as soon have something closer to ESO which is a little more stylized but also much prettier.

[GloatingSwine]

But now, I'm curious, do ennemies acknowledge it when they've killed you before? And how do they justify Vilain McBadguy restarting his entire ritual when you fail to interrupt it?

Sometimes they get surprised that something isn't killing you when it should be. They didn't put anything in for having to restart a fight though.