The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

[GloatingSwine]

So my Morowwing knowledge isn't as good as my Oblivion and Skyrim knowledge, so correct me if Sothas Sil as explcitly bargaining with the stronger half, but... That by itseld doesn't mean he's powerful, that just means that Sothas Sil didn't want him in Nirn. Again, unless there's details I'm missing, I only know what you just said in regards to this topic.

It's hard to really rank the strength of the Daedric Princes, but we know that Mehrunes Dagon and Molag Bal are the heaviest hitters and Peryite is near the bottom.

The Coldharbour Compact wasn't just a bargain though. There's a pretty strong implication that it was a threat, and one that Sotha Sil was able to make good on. When Mehrunes Dagon manifested himself and tried to invade Mournhold at the end of the First Era he got smashed and the ways between the Deadlands and Nirn were shut.

(I personally think that there's something significant about the Clockwork City and Throne Aligned that make this possible).

[Kareeah_Indaga]

So my Morowwing knowledge isn't as good as my Oblivion and Skyrim knowledge, so correct me if Sothas Sil as explcitly bargaining with the stronger half, but... That by itseld doesn't mean he's powerful, that just means that Sothas Sil didn't want him in Nirn. Again, unless there's details I'm missing, I only know what you just said in regards to this topic.

You mentioned a compact with Sotha Sil?/Can you tell me more about this compact with Sotha Sil?
[snip]
What about the other Daedric Princes? Aren't there more than eight?
"Many more, but the Princes bound by the Coldharbour Compact stand above their lesser kith. None can match my beauty or Molag Bal's horrors. Dagon makes an art of destruction. On it goes.

Bah. Let me reach into other dimensions to carry a ridiculous amount of crap.

And bring back Mark and Recall. And Levitate.

Yes, yes, yes and yes. And I want a summonable mount in the base game too!

[Rater202]

Yes, yes, yes and yes. And I want a summonable mount in the base game too!

Okay, that makes it seem like less an issue of raw power and more an issue of what they were Princes of.

[Fyraltari]

Miraak also wasn't exactly as powerful as he thought he was.

while in term of gameplay you only gain knowledge of one word per soul, in lore absorbing a ragon's soul adds that dragon's power to your own.

Mirak starts the game with a maximum of 10 dragon souls and that's presumably including his own.

If we assume that you do the DLC in order and that you are at a minimum making a serious effort to learn the shouts if not 100% completing each aspect of the game, then you're going to have well over 60 souls at a minimum by the time you et foot on Solthheim.

Miraak, being how old he is and how he was empowered by Mora, was certain strong, but as a Dragonborn, even as the First Dragonborn, he's nothing compared to the Last Dragonborn.

Yes, The Last Dragonborn is stronger than Miraak. Not only do you beat Miraak and three dragons but you also beat the guy who beat Miraak way back when.

So?

Yeah, but in spite of his claims, Mora didnt really instigate any of that.

Didn't he? Where do you think Miraak learned to use the All-Maker stones to brainwash the whole of Solstheim? How do you think he knew there was another dragonborn around to antagonize?

He goes really hard trying to convince you that free will is an illusion, but at any point you have the capacity to just shove off and... not do what he wants you to, and oops, there goes his entire plan, and he can't stop you.

Yeah but if you do that, Miraak turns Solstheim into his temple and it's too late to stop him. Also, that would be running away from a fight. Something that's antithetical to your draconic soul.

So yes. Their protection against Mora works right up until the point where they decide to stop using it due to outside reasons.

Just ignore the fact that the "outside reason" wears a mask fashionned after Mora's effigy and lives inside Mora's domain.

Which gives Mora a strong bargaining position in this particular instance, but really doesnt speak to his power to affect mortals in general. The game doesnt give us any way forward with the quest short of bargaining with Mora, but that doesnt mean that in some hypothetical alternate timeline that Miraak is otherwise invincible or anything like that

If Miraak is allowed to escape his ritual comes into play and does... Something bad to the world ("And when the world shall listen / And when the world shall see / And when the world remembers / That world shall cease to be") and become a god or something to that effect. So it's in the dragonborn's best interest to kill him before he leaves Apocrypha. While in Apocrypha you can only reach him once Mora has given you the third word of Bend Will. SPlot contrivance? Yes, but not only. Apocrypha is Mora's domain, he shapes it as he wills. Mora is purposefully keeping you away from Miraak. Even if the game allowed you to try and scale his tower, Mora would fold pace so that you'd end up at the bottom again or something, because he's railroading you into accepting his bargain.

So what's it going to be, are you going to take his deal and get a sweet power upgrade, or are you going to let this guy molest the island, abandon these people to whatever gruesome fate he has in store for them, and let him get away with sending assassins after you just because you don't want Hermaeus Mora to learn thr correct way to skin a horker?

and frankly the fact that failure is even theoretically an outcome would really indicate that Mora is not nearly as omniscient as he would like you to believe.

Of course Mora's not omniscient, if he were he'd already know the Skaal's secrets. But he's an immortal very powerful being, who'se been collecting all manner of arcane knowlede for millenia, specializes in scrying the tides of Fate and is related to daddy-Akatosh in some way. Tread carefully.

[Rater202]

Yes, The Last Dragonborn is stronger than Miraak. Not only do you beat Miraak and three dragons but you also beat the guy who beat Miraak way back when.

So?

So the Last Dragonborn has better odds of getting away with telling Mora to piss off than Miraak did.

Considering that Mora, for all his bluster,didn't do anything about Miraak until after you got involved and even then only after you already defeated him did he actually punish Miraak, I'd say the LAst Dragonborn's odds are pretty good.

I mean, the Hero of Kvatch killed the Mightiest of the Deadric Princes within said Prince's own realm as a mere mortal cosplaying a Prince(you do not actually become Sheogorath until after this.) An actual Demigod with several score dragons worth of raw power backing him up, including the aggregate power of someone who got away with betraying Mora for centuries?

[Lord Raziere]

So the Last Dragonborn has better odds of getting away with telling Mora to piss off than Miraak did.

Considering that Mora, for all his bluster,didn't do anything about Miraak until after you got involved and even then only after you already defeated him did he actually punish Miraak, I'd say the LAst Dragonborn's odds are pretty good.

I mean, the Hero of Kvatch killed the Mightiest of the Deadric Princes within said Prince's own realm as a mere mortal cosplaying a Prince(you do not actually become Sheogorath until after this.) An actual Demigod with several score dragons worth of raw power backing him up, including the aggregate power of someone who got away with betraying Mora for centuries?

problem is, with how much knowledge-seeking the Last Dragonborn does (the shouts can count as well as seeking the black books, as well as the things they do at the college) its possible that this might result in mantling Hermaeus Mora.

especially since if you kill Hermaeus Mora I'd imagine it'd become real tempting to seek the knowledge of Apocrypha yourself without his interference, so to begin seeking the knowledge held within when Hermaeus Mora is dead....and to take control of Apocrypha....that would probably make you become Hermaeus Mora.

so sure, they can win but at what cost?

[Rater202]

problem is, with how much knowledge-seeking the Last Dragonborn does (the shouts can count as well as seeking the black books, as well as the things they do at the college) its possible that this might result in mantling Hermaeus Mora.

especially since if you kill Hermaeus Mora I'd imagine it'd become real tempting to seek the knowledge of Apocrypha yourself without his interference, so to begin seeking the knowledge held within when Hermaeus Mora is dead....and to take control of Apocrypha....that would probably make you become Hermaeus Mora.

so sure, they can win but at what cost?

Considering that apparently, the Hero of Kvatch is only acting like Sheogorath for funzies/to honor the previous when you run into him in Skyrim, the cost is pretty low.

(though tha'ts an actor statement, not an authorial one.)

But I wasn't talking about necessarily killing Mora. Just being theoretically able to is presumably enough to get away with telling him to piss off.

[Fyraltari]

So the Last Dragonborn has better odds of getting away with telling Mora to piss off than Miraak did.

Considering that Mora, for all his bluster,didn't do anything about Miraak until after you got involved and even then only after you already defeated him did he actually punish Miraak, I'd say the LAst Dragonborn's odds are pretty good.

1) There's always a bigger fish. There's absolutely no guarantee that somebody else won't show up later who can take the dragonborn in a fight. Say thirty years after the event of the game a random redgard shows up seeking vengeance against the dragonborn who killed their parents in one of their many many fights. Of course to take down such a legend that avenger would need some special power. Alas, if only the secret of the ancestral weapon of the Yokudan, the all-mighty Pankratosword were not lost to the world! Or if only there was someone who knew the secret and who were willing to bargain for it. Some sort of collector of esoteric and forgotten lore, perhaps?

2) Raw might isn't all that matters. The dragonborn still need to sleep (in theory). All it takes is one trusted friend, one skilled burglar getting into your bedroom with a letter opener and you'll be partying it up with Shor and Ysgramor. Wuulfarth Ash-King was, arguably, even mightier than the Last Dragonborn and what good did it do him in his new carrer as a glorified battery?

I mean, the Hero of Kvatch killed the Mightiest of the Deadric Princes within said Prince's own realm as a mere mortal cosplaying a Prince(you do not actually become Sheogorath until after this.)

Err, no? For one Jyggalag is very much alive, he chats you up after the fight. For two, he was mid-transformation at that moment and therefore running at half-strength at best. For three, you're almost done Mantling Sheogorath at this point (All of the Isles have sworn loyalty to you, you're wielding his staff, you've maintained the mecanisms of the place, you've relieved the events of Arden-Sul's life who is related to Sheogorath's origins in some way). This fight is the Deadric esuivalent of a guy having an argument in his head.

An actual Demigod with several score dragons worth of raw power backing him up, including the aggregate power of someone who got away with betraying Mora for centuries?

Say how long has Miraak actually been going rogue (for as much as "long" majes sense in Oblivion), because I got the impression this was a relatively recent thing and that in the meantime he had been earning his stay in Apocrypha.

[Rater202]

Err, no? For one Jyggalag is very much alive, he chats you up after the fight. For two, he was mid-transformation at that moment and therefore running at half-strength at best. For three, you're almost done Mantling Sheogorath at this point (All of the Isles have sworn loyalty to you, you're wielding his staff, you've maintained the mecanisms of the place, you've relieved the events of Arden-Sul's life who is related to Sheogorath's origins in some way). This fight is the Deadric esuivalent of a guy having an argument in his head.

Counterpoint: You don't actually gain any of Sheogorath's power until after his point. You're Walking like the Mad God, but he isn't Walking like you yet. He can't, he's too busy walking like Jyggalag, being that he's returned to being Jyggalag.

You don't properly become Sheogorath until you're the only one who can be Sheogorath. Because once you defeat Jyggalag and the cycle of the Greymarch is broken the orignal Sheogorath is just flat out gone forever except in the form of Jyggalag's memories of being cursed into that state.

Furthermore: Jyygalag refers to himself as wandering the Waters of Oblivion. Which is also how the Saint and Seducers describe themselves in between the points where they are slain and when they reform. Jyggalag is about as dead as a Deadra can be: Which as I understand t is more dead than an Aedra can be, but significantly less dead than a mortal can be. He'll presumably regain physical form eventually, but.

[Fyraltari]

Counterpoint: You don't actually gain any of Sheogorath's power until after his point. You're Walking like the Mad God, but he isn't Walking like you yet. He can't, he's too busy walking like Jyggalag, being that he's returned to being Jyggalag.

If we follow this logic the HoK never becomes Sheoggorath because Sheo is forever walking like Jyggalag, now.

You don't properly become Sheogorath until you're the only one who can be Sheogorath.

And he's nit properly Jyggalag yet, so it evens out.

Furthermore: Jyygalag refers to himself as wandering the Waters of Oblivion. Which is also how the Saint and Seducers describe themselves in between the points where they are slain and when they reform. Jyggalag is about as dead as a Deadra can be: Which as I understand t is more dead than an Aedra can be, but significantly less dead than a mortal can be. He'll presumably regain physical form eventually, but.

That's less dead and more "in the time-out box". Dude's fine. Better than he's been in literal ages, in fact.

[LibraryOgre]

Yes, yes, yes and yes. And I want a summonable mount in the base game too!

Arvaak was the best part of all DLC.

Considering that apparently, the Hero of Kvatch is only acting like Sheogorath for funzies/to honor the previous when you run into him in Skyrim, the cost is pretty low.

I've mentioned it before, but when I ran through all the games recently, I decided that all of the heroes were the same person.

The Eternal Champion became the Agent. The Agent was sent to Morrowind as the Nerevarine. The Nerevarine returned to Cyrodil and became the Hero of Kvatch, who became Sheogorath... who woke up on the border of Skyrim, getting arrested.

And I attribute it to a curse from Jagar Tharn, just before you killed him.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Okay, that makes it seem like less an issue of raw power and more an issue of what they were Princes of.

“Stand above their lesser kith” is pretty clear on what she’s talking about, actually.

Say how long has Miraak actually been going rogue (for as much as "long" majes sense in Oblivion), because I got the impression this was a relatively recent thing and that in the meantime he had been earning his stay in Apocrypha.

I had been under the impression he’d been doing it for a while, but that Mora had just been allowing it - I acknowledge it’s been a while since I played through Dragonborn though.

[Rater202]

“Stand above their lesser kith” is pretty clear on what she’s talking about, actually.

By itself, yes.

But followed by "none match my beauty" etcetera is makes it seem like "stand above the rest" refers to domains, not raw power. Those domains put them above the other princes.

Ang again, even if it is raw power what are the odds that Sotaas Sil saw the kind of things we saw that prove that Mora isn't as powerful or all-knowing as he claims he is.

[Fyraltari]

Ang again, even if it is raw power what are the odds that Sotaas Sil saw the kind of things we saw that prove that Mora isn't as powerful or all-knowing as he claims he is.

Pretty high. Sotha Sil is an alumnus of the Psijjic Order, a living god, a scientific genius and experienced traveller of Oblivion. I say he's much more aware of the nature of the Aurbis and its residents than any other on Tamriel.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Pretty high. Sotha Sil is an alumnus of the Psijjic Order, a living god, a scientific genius and experienced traveller of Oblivion. I say he's much more aware of the nature of the Aurbis and its residents than any other on Tamriel.

Adding to that, he correctly predicted Almalexia was going to murder him centuries before it happened.

[Fyraltari]

Adding to that, he correctly predicted Almalexia was going to murder him centuries before it happened.

However, the quote you pulled to justify the Princes included within the Compact being mightier than the others is not from Sotha Sil, but (I'm guessing), from Azura. Talking themselves up is expected from the Princes. We would need another source as to why Sil dealt with these eight and not the others. Maybe had no leverage on the others.

It may be that these eight are of particular interest to the Dunmer: Molag Bal, Malacath, Sheogorath and Mehrunes Dagon, that's the entire House of Troubles included ; Azura and Boethia that's two of the Good Daedra, why is Mephala not included? maybe there is no pact the web-Spinner cannot find a loophole in ; Hircine and Herma-Mora that is more difficult to explain, but the two of them have a particular presence on Solstheim, was it already part of Morrowind at the time?

[Kareeah_Indaga]

However, the quote you pulled to justify the Princes included within the Compact being mightier than the others is not from Sotha Sil, but (I'm guessing), from Azura. Talking themselves up is expected from the Princes. We would need another source as to why Sil dealt with these eight and not the others. Maybe had no leverage on the others.

Themselves sure, but not each other.

Also he loops in Mephala and Clavicus Vile during the Summerset main quest. So, not an issue of having no leverage.

Solstheim SFAIK was Nord up until the Nords gave it to the Dunmer after the Red Year. That said it hasn’t been added in ESO yet, and with the Ebonheart Pact in effect, I would say it’s ambiguous as to whose hands it’s in as of the Second Era.

[Fyraltari]

Themselves sure, but not each other.

I can totally see Azura talk a colleague up to trash-talk another.

Also he loops in Mephala and Clavicus Vile during the Summerset main quest. So, not an issue of having no leverage.

Huh. I haven't played any ESO, so I don't know much about what goes on over there. Maybe the situation changed somehow.

Solstheim SFAIK was Nord up until the Nords gave it to the Dunmer after the Red Year. That said it hasn’t been added in ESO yet, and with the Ebonheart Pact in effect, I would say it’s ambiguous as to whose hands it’s in as of the Second Era.

Oh right, it being introduced in a Morrowind DLC tripped me up. Yeah, I guess there's no connection there.

[Imbalance]

Bah. Let me reach into other dimensions to carry a ridiculous amount of crap.

And bring back Mark and Recall. And Levitate.

And spears. And throwing weapons. And separate armor pieces. And damage attribute spells.

Arvaak was the best part of all DLC.



I've mentioned it before, but when I ran through all the games recently, I decided that all of the heroes were the same person.

The Eternal Champion became the Agent. The Agent was sent to Morrowind as the Nerevarine. The Nerevarine returned to Cyrodil and became the Hero of Kvatch, who became Sheogorath... who woke up on the border of Skyrim, getting arrested.

And I attribute it to a curse from Jagar Tharn, just before you killed him.

I get along with this headcanon. Only, I'd say that the time line is not necessarily so linear for the Hero. CHIM's been playing more racing games lately, but will likely dip back into Skyrim before starting Oblivion again.

[Eldan]

Not too far from canon, if you consider that they are all incarnations of the Hero Archtype, and at least share powers.

[Fyraltari]

Arvaak was the best part of all DLC.



I've mentioned it before, but when I ran through all the games recently, I decided that all of the heroes were the same person.

The Eternal Champion became the Agent. The Agent was sent to Morrowind as the Nerevarine. The Nerevarine returned to Cyrodil and became the Hero of Kvatch, who became Sheogorath... who woke up on the border of Skyrim, getting arrested.

And I attribute it to a curse from Jagar Tharn, just before you killed him.

I think I have asked you before, but then how do you headcanon the Last Dragonborn and Sheogorath's meeting? Or the Hero of Kvatch not being able to wear the Amulet of Kings?

[Rater202]

I think I have asked you before, but then how do you headcanon the Last Dragonborn and Sheogorath's meeting? Or the Hero of Kvatch not being able to wear the Amulet of Kings?

I believe it's pseudo-canon that there's more than one kind of Dragonborn and that the Septims were the other kind.

[Fyraltari]

I believe it's pseudo-canon that there's more than one kind of Dragonborn and that the Septims were the other kind.

The dragonblood versus the dragon soul, yes I know. Except that The Last Dragonborn uses their blood to open Sky Haven Temple, strongly indicating that they posses the dragonblood as well.

It seems to me that, with the exception of Reman I and Tiber Septim, the Dragonborn Emperors were not true dragonborns, but simply received a portion of the blessing of Miraak and the others, that being the dragonblood which is all that's needed to wear the Amulet and lit the dragonfires.

[Keltest]

The dragonblood versus the dragon soul, yes I know. Except that The Last Dragonborn uses their blood to open Sky Haven Temple, strongly indicating that they posses the dragonblood as well.

It seems to me that, with the exception of Reman I and Tiber Septim, the Dragonborn Emperors were not true dragonborns, but simply received a portion of the blessing of Miraak and the others, that being the dragonblood which is all that's needed to wear the Amulet and lit the dragonfires.

Given the absence of dragons and the fact that they already have an empire conquered, I dont know that there would actually be any way to tell the difference. Maybe see if Martin and Uriel collected random assortments of crap to haul around everywhere they go?

[Eldan]

I mean, from a purely outside perspective, this is just another case of "We changed the background between games". Until Skyrim, being dragonborn didn't come with powers. Until Morrowind, Cyrodiil was a jungle. Same thing.

Funnily enough, the Septims aren't even descended from Tiber Septim directly. They are descended from his brother, because Tiber's line died out very early when his son and/or Grandson (sources disagree) Pelagius I was assassinated after only three years on the throne.

[Keltest]

I mean, from a purely outside perspective, this is just another case of "We changed the background between games". Until Skyrim, being dragonborn didn't come with powers. Until Morrowind, Cyrodiil was a jungle. Same thing.

Funnily enough, the Septims aren't even descended from Tiber Septim directly. They are descended from his brother, because Tiber's line died out very early when his son and/or Grandson (sources disagree) Pelagius I was assassinated after only three years on the throne.

Which is a little hard to square with the loading screen message that says they are directly descended.

[Grim Portent]

We've done the Dragonborn (LDB and Miraak) vs Dragonborn/Dragonblooded (Septim dynasty) vs Dragon-Born (Nerevarine) discussion a few times before haven't we?

As I recall we've never really had any evidence for them being the same thing or for them being the same/similar names used for various different concepts.

Personally I favour them being different things, it's not like people are infallible in universe, sometimes they use the wrong terms to describe things or use conversational language to talk about things. It's really a matter of personal interpretation until we get more evidence, which we likely won't given that all the various Dragonborn are going to be dead or missing in the next game.


Meta answer is of course that the Skyrim version of Dragonborn was made to make the Thu'um (which I think was mentioned in prior background elements) usable as a gameplay mechanic and to do a Chosen One plot, so it not fitting in with prior lore isn't something to get hung up on.

[Keltest]

Worth pointing out, the Blades at least seem to think its the same thing. The Dragonguard, their predecessors, served the various emperors precisely because they were Dragonborn.

[LibraryOgre]

And spears. And throwing weapons. And separate armor pieces. And damage attribute spells.

The Fort Firemoth in Morrowind became INCREDIBLY easy if you have a Damage Intelligence spell. It shut down casters so hard, by making them dumb as a post.

As an aside from all the Lore talk, has anyone else played Blades? I started it a couple days ago and am enjoying it, but I also haven't gotten far and am not engaging with online features.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

As an aside from all the Lore talk, has anyone else played Blades? I started it a couple days ago and am enjoying it, but I also haven't gotten far and am not engaging with online features.

I played it a little bit years ago. It was really shallow and repetitive, has it gotten better?