The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

[LibraryOgre]

Cloud Ruler Temple?

That'll do.

Fort Dawnguard? I was going to say Dragonsreach too, but I’m not sure if it counts.

I put that more in the "city" category. Like, yes, it has fortifications (as does Riften, Solitude, Windhelm, and Markath), but they're mostly cities.

Wasn't Fort Dawnguard a ruin when you found it? Or just aggressively uninhabited?

[Fyraltari]

Wasn't Fort Dawnguard a ruin when you found it? Or just aggressively uninhabited?

There's a difference?

[LibraryOgre]

There's a difference?

A ruin is a building that is falling down.
"Aggressively uninhabited" the building itself is fine, but the furnishings might be trashed and you need to clear out a ton of garbage.

[Rynjin]

Wasn't Fort Dawnguard a ruin when you found it? Or just aggressively uninhabited?

It was a "ruin" when Istvan found it in the sense that it needed cleaning and secondary fortifications (eg. palisades) needed to be rebuilt, but the actual structure seemed in perfect condition, and gets repaired throughout the questline.

So "aggressively uninhabited" seems to fit better.

[Grim Portent]

Fort Dawnguard is fine when you get to it as I recall. A little rubble and a lot of garbage and crates, but the actual structure is fine.

Always bugged me that the forts throughout Skryim are ruins, the maintenance of forts and keeps throughout the land is one of the most basic military necessities of a medieval setting. There should be at least a few forts that only got left unmanned after the Great War which should be in good condition.

[Keltest]

Besides the Reach, I don't know if Skyrim has actually seen war since the Second Era. And the Reach checks out because both sides are destroying the forts

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Always bugged me that the forts throughout Skryim are ruins, the maintenance of forts and keeps throughout the land is one of the most basic military necessities of a medieval setting. There should be at least a few forts that only got left unmanned after the Great War which should be in good condition.

Should they still be unmanned with the Civil War going on though?

[Eldan]

Yeah both sides of hte civil war should be trying to occupy and restore those forts, not just leave them to bandits. They'd have control of major roads and supply lines.

[Fyraltari]

Besides the Reach, I don't know if Skyrim has actually seen war since the Second Era.

The War of the Red Diamond ended with the siege of Solitude.

[Keltest]

The War of the Red Diamond ended with the siege of Solitude.

Which is also the only city in skyrim with a proper fort in good repair inside the city walls. Windhelm gets second place but is in rough shape.

[InvisibleBison]

Yeah both sides of hte civil war should be trying to occupy and restore those forts, not just leave them to bandits. They'd have control of major roads and supply lines.

There are at least three forts that become occupied by Imperial or Stormcloak soldiers after you clear out their original inhabitants. Which I suppose suggests that neither side is capable of clearing a fort on their own, though given that the war is basically a stalemate absent the Dragonborn's intervention that does make sense.

[veti]

There are at least three forts that become occupied by Imperial or Stormcloak soldiers after you clear out their original inhabitants. Which I suppose suggests that neither side is capable of clearing a fort on their own, though given that the war is basically a stalemate absent the Dragonborn's intervention that does make sense.

"Makes sense" is a bit generous, considering that your entrance exam for joining the legion is to solo a bandit fort - implying that any legionary could do the job singlehanded. It's just that they... have better things to do, OK? Like, err... oh, I'm sure there's something.

[Vinyadan]

"Makes sense" is a bit generous, considering that your entrance exam for joining the legion is to solo a bandit fort - implying that any legionary could do the job singlehanded. It's just that they... have better things to do, OK? Like, err... oh, I'm sure there's something.

Compare Morrowind, where the first Legion missions you are likely to get are from Darius, who first asks you to have a talk with a widow to get a land deed and then orders you to cure a blighted kwama queen, to later send you to handle the liberation of a pilgrim that doesn't need to be obtained through violence. Afterwards you get some more investigative work about the poor Gnisis tax collector and the Talos Cult. In total, you don't need to kill more than 3 people (all from the Legion) and you have met a number of social realities: the settled Gnisis locals, a rogue Telvanni, the nomadic Ashlanders, the occupying Legion and the problems it faces when trying to police a complex enviroment, and two examples of serious issues that can manifest themselves within the Legion (violence against the locals and treason against the Emperor).

Skyrim instead was really into the "it's a war, it's just a series of battles" mindset. I don't think it added much on a setting level (Tullius kept saying he didn't get Nords, but that didn't really translate into anything practical, did it?). It actually felt very barebone, to the point that a few times I thought that I was playing a mod.

[Grim Portent]

Should they still be unmanned with the Civil War going on though?

The ones on vital roads certainly shouldn't. Letting bandits control roads during a war is an awful idea, and really the two factions should have secured all of them the moment hostilities became likely, for propoganda as well as practical reasons.

Really would have liked to see some Empire style forts, built by the Empire during the past few centuries, still in decent condition, and some ruins of ancient Nordic forts with most of them being long abandoned. Maybe one or two nordic forts that were still in good condition and in use by some of the Jarls.

[Fyraltari]

The whole Civil War was gravely unfinished, maybe if they hadn't pushed for the 11/11/11 release date, there would have been more soldier-occupied forts?

[veti]

So, last time I strolled up the road from Rorikstead towards Dragon Bridge, a Thalmor patrol came along the road from Markarth to the junction with the bandit ambush. The bandits saw them before they saw me, so I left them all to it.

Despite my mod that doubles the number of common enemies per spawn (so, double the numbers of non-boss bandits, among others), the Thalmor handed them easily. No losses on their side.

Then they turned north, and I wondered how they'd cope with Robber's Gorge. So I hung back, just getting close enough to make sure the bandits had spawned, and waited.

They gave it a good try, but turns out three justiciars are no match for a fort with 20-odd bandits.

So there's one data point. I doubt if a Legion or Stormcloak patrol would have done any better.

[DigoDragon]

There are at least three forts that become occupied by Imperial or Stormcloak soldiers after you clear out their original inhabitants. Which I suppose suggests that neither side is capable of clearing a fort on their own, though given that the war is basically a stalemate absent the Dragonborn's intervention that does make sense.

I just assumed the soldiers were opportunists; they see the Dragonborn slay every bandit in the fort, and after running off with some loot, the soldiers clean up the bodies and settle in. Why bother with the effort of fighting bandits when I do the job for free? Wasn't like I was going to come back anyway.

[Fyraltari]

So, last time I strolled up the road from Rorikstead towards Dragon Bridge, a Thalmor patrol came along the road from Markarth to the junction with the bandit ambush. The bandits saw them before they saw me, so I left them all to it.

Despite my mod that doubles the number of common enemies per spawn (so, double the numbers of non-boss bandits, among others), the Thalmor handed them easily. No losses on their side.

Then they turned north, and I wondered how they'd cope with Robber's Gorge. So I hung back, just getting close enough to make sure the bandits had spawned, and waited.

They gave it a good try, but turns out three justiciars are no match for a fort with 20-odd bandits.

So there's one data point. I doubt if a Legion or Stormcloak patrol would have done any better.

I'm not sure that's really representative if you double the numbers of one side of the fight.

Also, Thalmor patrols are for harassing the weak and helpless, not conquering forts or fighting crime.

[LibraryOgre]

Still one of my favorite bits in Skyrim is what I call "Rage Across Skyrim".

Become a werewolf, and just carve a bloody swath across the Whiterun province of murdered bandits. Kill everyone, no loot grabbed, just so much death that I fill up my perks.

[Grim Portent]

Ah, a werewolf rampage is always fun.

I remember back before Dawnguard when being a werewolf for ages became trivial, running from Markarth to the far end of Falkreath in one transformation. Killed every Forsworn, Bandit, rogue wizard, Thalmor and Imperial soldier on the way, as well as a few bears and a dragon.

Was rather cathartic.

[Imbalance]

I have an old Morrowind save on original Xbox, I'm in Vivec's chamber with the Ring of Hircine. I slip it on and we fight to the death, one on one. It's a pretty even match, the room full of magic, nowhere to take cover, just mash and slash and hope that I hit him enough times before the spells finish me. Great stress relief.

[WritersBlock]

Seeing the discussion from a page ago about Vigilant Tyranius and all those forcegreet quest annoyances I would like to mention what could be the worst ones of all. Riften, Just Riften....

Being forcegreet accosted by that thug of Maven's shortly after you talk or bribe your way past the guard to even enter the town in the first place and then you finally decide to do some see what is at the market stalls and then Brynjolf comes up just out of nowhere and... well you get the idea.

And man that thieves guild questline is a whole other can of worms the farther along you go. (Mary Sue Karliah, and the whole Nightingale mess)

[LibraryOgre]

Seeing the discussion from a page ago about Vigilant Tyranius and all those forcegreet quest annoyances I would like to mention what could be the worst ones of all. Riften, Just Riften....

Being forcegreet accosted by that thug of Maven's shortly after you talk or bribe your way past the guard to even enter the town in the first place and then you finally decide to do some see what is at the market stalls and then Brynjolf comes up just out of nowhere and... well you get the idea.

And man that thieves guild questline is a whole other can of worms the farther along you go. (Mary Sue Karliah, and the whole Nightingale mess)

The Companions and the Thieves Guild were two quests where I'd like the option to say "Yeah, I don't want to join you in your particular brand of life-altering bull****, but can I help you out, anyway?" Why do I have to become a werewolf to help you fight the werewolf hunters? Why do I have to become a Nightingale to chase that bastard down? You go drink weird blood and swear daedric oaths, I just want to hit people with a sword.

(I lie. I totally want to be a werewolf. But, like, I shouldn't HAVE to be a werewolf)

[Keltest]

The Companions and the Thieves Guild were two quests where I'd like the option to say "Yeah, I don't want to join you in your particular brand of life-altering bull****, but can I help you out, anyway?" Why do I have to become a werewolf to help you fight the werewolf hunters? Why do I have to become a Nightingale to chase that bastard down? You go drink weird blood and swear daedric oaths, I just want to hit people with a sword.

(I lie. I totally want to be a werewolf. But, like, I shouldn't HAVE to be a werewolf)

The Nightingale one at least makes a little sense because you need Nocturnal's support to counter the powers that Mercer has given himself, at least in theory.

[Fyraltari]

The Companions and the Thieves Guild were two quests where I'd like the option to say "Yeah, I don't want to join you in your particular brand of life-altering bull****, but can I help you out, anyway?" Why do I have to become a werewolf to help you fight the werewolf hunters? Why do I have to become a Nightingale to chase that bastard down? You go drink weird blood and swear daedric oaths, I just want to hit people with a sword.

(I lie. I totally want to be a werewolf. But, like, I shouldn't HAVE to be a werewolf)

At the end of the day, the Thieves' Guild is a Daedric Cult to Nocturne and they don't really pretend they aren't, so pledging your soul to her at the end of the questline makes sense.

It would have been nice if upon learning the Companions were lead by werewolves, ypu had the option to join the Silver Hand instead. Add in the idea that's floating around that the Silver Hand is a successor organisation to the Companions who refused Hircine's Gift and you'd have had a nice alternate questline of bringing the organisation back to its roots.

[Rater202]

At the end of the day, the Thieves' Guild is a Daedric Cult to Nocturne and they don't really pretend they aren't, so pledging your soul to her at the end of the questline makes sense.

It would have been nice if upon learning the Companions were lead by werewolves, ypu had the option to join the Silver Hand instead. Add in the idea that's floating around that the Silver Hand is a successor organisation to the Companions who refused Hircine's Gift and you'd have had a nice alternate questline of bringing the organisation back to its roots.

The problem with that is that the Silver Hand as presented are um... Sociopathic serial killers? They target the companions knowing full well that the companions can control themselves... Most werewolves are cursed, not willingly monsters, and they also kill Kajet and possibly other beast men.

They employ torture and other excessively cruel means of killing their targets...

Like, I'm not much one to talk since I favor the Dark Brotherhood but the Silver Hand are presented as being complete monsters... IIRC they even skinned a Werewolf, or talked about skinning one.

[Grim Portent]

The problem with that is that the Silver Hand as presented are um... Sociopathic serial killers? They target the companions knowing full well that the companions can control themselves... Most werewolves are cursed, not willingly monsters, and they also kill Kajet and possibly other beast men.

They employ torture and other excessively cruel means of killing their targets...

Like, I'm not much one to talk since I favor the Dark Brotherhood but the Silver Hand are presented as being complete monsters... IIRC they even skinned a Werewolf, or talked about skinning one.

They have werewolf pelts and titles like 'the Skinner', so they definitely skin werewolves to take their hides as trophies.

[Fyraltari]

The problem with that is that the Silver Hand as presented are um... Sociopathic serial killers? They target the companions knowing full well that the companions can control themselves... Most werewolves are cursed, not willingly monsters, and they also kill Kajet and possibly other beast men.

They employ torture and other excessively cruel means of killing their targets...

Like, I'm not much one to talk since I favor the Dark Brotherhood but the Silver Hand are presented as being complete monsters... IIRC they even skinned a Werewolf, or talked about skinning one.

Yes, I know, and I think that's boring. In game, they're just another bandit group, but with silver sword (they attack you even if you've got ****-all to do with the Companions).

But there's the theory floating around that they were intended to be a splintered group of the Companions but, as with many things in this game, it was dropped durong development. (They seem just as fixated on getting Wuuthrad as the Companions, they alledgedly have a higher-than-usual chance of carrying copies of The Song of the Return, i.e. "Ysgramor rules, Falmer drools, the book" and they even more alledgedly can sometimes be heard shouting "Ysgramor would be disappointed in you" in battle (I suspect a Mandela effect on that one).)

And frankly this would have made them much more interesting. You can even keep the problematic elements, TES is full of morally-gray choices and Ysgramor himself was a grade-A douche. Then you'd have to choose between the "purer" hateful Silver Hand and the arguably more honorable but corrupted Companions.

Edit: I don't remember them targeting Khajiit?

[DigoDragon]

The Nightingale one at least makes a little sense because you need Nocturnal's support to counter the powers that Mercer has given himself, at least in theory.

Me: "Alright, Mercer is dead and I got the magic key. This'll let me use all those crazy powers Mercer got to use!"

Nocturnal: "..."

Me: "This'll let me use all those crazy powers Mercer got to use, right?"

[Fyraltari]

Me: "Alright, Mercer is dead and I got the magic key. This'll let me use all those crazy powers Mercer got to use!"

Nocturnal: "..."

Me: "This'll let me use all those crazy powers Mercer got to use, right?"

Nocturnal: "Reusable lockpick. Take it or leave it."